The posture

[Dharmaraj]

Guys

Does it matter, whether you put your right leg on top or left leg on top during the lotus posture ?

Which is recommended ?

[Fortyeightvows]

they are both 'on top' right? on top of one's thighs that is.
i was taught by students of hsuan hua dashi to place the left foot into position first and then the right foot.
this is the way statues are usually portrayed.

[tingdzin]

For certain practices in some traditions, it is necessary to sit full lotus with the right leg placed last, so that is over the left; if this is the case, the teacher will let you know. In my experience, Zen practitioners who use the full lotus usually put left over right. Nevertheless, if you sit either way to the complete exclusion of the other, you may well develop a slight curvature of the spine which is immediately apparent to a skilled masseuse or chiropractor. Best IMO therefore to switch it up now and then. But the important thing is to sit a lot.

[Fortyeightvows]

For certain practices in some traditions, it is necessary to sit full lotus with the right leg placed last so that is over the left

this is how i was taught.

In my experience, Zen practitioners who use the full lotus usually put left over right.

meaning they place their right foot first?
the people who taught me were zen, so....
see the picture below. or any other picture really (i would have used a picture of the statue in stupa bodhgaya but his legs are covered by robes)

Nevertheless, if you sit either way to the complete exclusion of the other, you may well develop a slight curvature of the spine which is immediately apparent to a skilled masseuse or chiropractor.

I haven't heard of this....

Best IMO therefore to switch it up now and then.

especially when learning. i was made to do a few minutes of sitting in half with just one leg placed.
akward until it isnt anymore

[Fortyeightvows]

image.jpg (404.14 KiB) Viewed 3449 times

[tingdzin]

Well, somebody once told me that the left should be over the right until we attain enlightenment, then the right goes on top, and this is why the statues all have the right on top. He may have just been talking through his hat,or it might really have some deeper significance, in that we are still training the mind, so our passive side should be put over our active side. In any case, you could try both and see what works best for you until or unless your own teacher gives you the Definitive Answer.

tingdzin wrote: Nevertheless, if you sit either way to the complete exclusion of the other, you may well develop a slight curvature of the spine which is immediately apparent to a skilled masseuse or chiropractor.

I haven't heard of this....

But it is quite true. Anyway, don't let this nitpicking out you off practice, Dharmaraj -- the important thing is to get in the habit of doing it.

[Dharmaraj]

But when I was reaseraching about this

I read about chan master hsuan hua, who says to put the right leg on top

And there also seems to be some connection between the hand position and the leg position

I found that, in japan if you put right leg on top its called the auspicious one and when the left leg is on top, it's called the demon subduing posture

Anybody could explain, what that means ?

[Vasana]

Do what is most comfortable for you. The flexibility and durability of our legs is not usually perfectly symmetrical so there's no use in sitting in a way that will cause sooner discomfort.

It's also really worthwhile carrying out a number of stretches and holds before sittings which can also relieve any prior tension to sitting aswell as increasing the duration you can sit without feeling any aches.

Some traditions will speak of subtle energetic reasons when it comes to the left and right side of the body and the placement of any mudras, but unless these aspects of practice concern you, it's more important to be able to sit comfortably with as few physical discomforts as possible.

Full-lotus is ideal, but not essential. Half lotus can suffice. You may need to experiment with cushions,blocks,blankets to find your ideal sitting position. This is worth the effort.

[Simon E.]

Unless you have been taught that posture matters within the tradition in which you practice..in which case you should be consistent to that tradition..
it doesn't.

A straight back is pretty valuable. But people practice in chairs, on benches, walking, and some claim to practice lying down although I am dubious about the latter claims...

Unless you are young or non caucasian when you first attempt to practice full lotus, you will never succeed properly.

Its gilding the lily.

[jmlee369]

Many people have referred to Master Hsuan Hua's advice here, but I would like to quote his words from The Chan Handbook where he states that it does not matter which foot goes on top. Master Hsuan Hua generally emphasises the importance the vajra position as a whole.

Full-lotus posture is another name for the vajra posture just described. By placing our left foot on top of our right thigh and then placing our right foot on our left thigh, we achieve full-lotus position. The left foot belongs to yang while the right foot belongs to yin. When assuming this meditation posture, the left foot, which is yang, is placed first, so that it is under, while the right foot, which is yin, is placed second on top. This balance of yin and yang can be seen in the taiji symbol, which depicts the absolute, from which comes primal beginning, and then from primal beginning, the two primary forces of yin and yang are shown symbolically as intertwined fish.

For those who prefer, it is also acceptable to put the left foot below and the right foot on top. The Dharma is not fixed and can be adapted according to a person’s preference. It is not necessary to attach rigidly to the particulars of the sitting posture. I am teaching the classic method, where the left foot goes on the right thigh and the right foot on the left thigh. It is not a fixed rule that you have to sit in this position. In conclusion, lotus posture facilitates entry into samadhi. It makes it much easier to do so.

[Fortyeightvows]

i would like to draw attention then to the line just after the lines you bolded. that is to what the master calls the 'classic method, where the left foot goes on the right thigh and the right foot on the left thigh'

for what it's worth, i have yet to meet a practicioner who does the opposite with any degree of proficency or for anything but a brief period.
this is probabley because it isnt taught the other way.

so while it may be fine to sit however one likes, the tradition is to place the left foot first.

[tingdzin]

for what it's worth, i have yet to meet a practicioner who does the opposite with any degree of proficency or for anything but a brief period.

I can sit either way for an hour without discomfort.

If the very teacher you quoted to support your position in the first place said either way is OK, and not to be rigid, why do you insist on "the classic method"?

The quote also seems to give support to the idea that a change (from yin to yang or vice versa) might be appropriate under some circumstances. There are profundities you may not have gained access to yet, believe it or not.

[jmlee369]

My limited experience at CTTB echoes Master Hua's statements, in that they're pretty much happy with people getting into the vajra position at all. I actually first managed to sit for longer periods in the vajra position with the right foot first, though I can now sit either way and switch it up between sessions for balance.

[Fortyeightvows]

The quote also seems to give support to the idea that a change (from yin to yang or vice versa) might be appropriate under some circumstances. There are profundities you may not have gained access to yet, believe it or not.

i don't doubt either of these statements

I can sit either way

better then me I can only sit classic style.

[jundo cohen]

Hi,

This is actually a topic of some debate in the Zen world. Muho Noelke, the current Abbot of Antaiji, recounts this:

In the "introduction to Zazen"... Sawaki Roshi [ states that] " ... . First you should know the difference between two ways of sitting: Gômaza, the "posture that subdues demons", and kichijôza, the "auspicious posture". Even in old texts, there is quite some confusion about the two postures. In short, the right side represents the ascending, active (yang) aspect. The left side represents the descending, passive (yin) aspect. When the right foot rests on the left thigh, that represents the ascending activity that subdues the demons (gômaza). When the left foot rests on the right thigh, that is a descending, passive activity which is auspicious (kichijôza).
You might think that this is only true for the half lotus. But that is not the case: In full lotus as well, if you first place your right foot on top of the left thigh, that is called gômaza. Gômaza also means to place the right hand first on the left foot. When the right hand is covered next with the left hand, that settles down the mind. In kichijôza on the other hand, the left foot is placed first on the right thigh (and then the right foot on the left thight) and the left hand is placed on top of the right foot, then the right hand on top of the left hand. That means that we speak of kichijôza in the case of half lotus as Dogen Zenji describes it - left foot placed on right thigh - while we speak of gômaza in the case of the full lotus (with right foot placed on left thigh first, then left foot placed on right thigh)."

Although Sawaki Roshi tries to clear up the confusion with these words, I have doubts that he is successful. It seems strange that Dogen Zenji should recommend kichijôza for half lotus and gômaza for full lotus. Sawaki Roshi does not tell us why we should sit one way in half lotus and the other way in full lotus. It is interesting but even more confusing that Sawaki also speaks about the hands. In the case of the hands, we should have them in the gômaza-posture regardless of half or full lotus - according to Dogen read in the way Sawaki does. I am afraid that Sawaki's way of reading Dogen though is not only confusing, but probably wrong altogether.
http://antaiji.org/archives/eng/adult40.shtml

Personally, I think the who thing is a bunch of hogwash, based upon bits of ancient Chinese medicine and ideas of Ki, Yin Yang, traditional "left side/right side" ideas and superstitions, and the prejudice of of "right" handed folks against the "sinister" left. It is a quaint idea, nothing more. (Of course, "positions" on this issue will vary among people! )

Several respected older Western Zen teachers were discussing the article recently, and don't see the difference between left and right. I usually favor the right, as I am right handed. It feels strange for to place the hands, for example, with the left hand on the bottom. However, I do not see any magic property in sitting one way or the other. If something feels strange about one side or the other, it is the same strangeness of a left hander trying to play tennis with a right handed grip and visa versa. Do what feels right to you, switch back and forth, experiment with one's own feeling. If one's body is feeling comfortable (and is not giving particular problems), one's sitting is fine.

Gassho (a gesture neither left nor right), Jundo

[tingdzin]

Wow, this is the first time I have ever heard someone who calls himself a Zen teacher completely discount traditional Chinese medicine, yin/yang theory, and the opinions of the very founder of the school he purports to be an heir to (and who obviously put in a lot more practice time than he has), and these not just as things that may or may not even be utilitarian and provisionally workable, but as "quaint," and mere "hogwash". What truly colossal chutzpah!

Too, your own cultural chauvinism may be sufficient reason to reject thousands of years of Asian lore about physiology in one fell swoop, but your remark also shows that you are completely unfamiliar with Western psychological research on the hemispherical functioning of the brain that shows the brain's two sides do indeed have complementary functions, which do, indeed, play out in human psychophysical activity.

Your comments here and elsewhere show you to be a poster boy for reductive, arrogant, and self-opinionated Buddhist modernism, regardless of your lip service to modesty. I am beginning to think that it must be very easy to get teaching imprimatur in modern Soto Zen.

Why do modernists bother to call themselves Buddhist? Probably because if they just said, "Come study with me; I have great ideas about the most profound questions of human existence," no one would come. They need the charismatic word "Zen", or "tantra" or "Dzogchen", as well as the supposed legitimacy of centuries to get people to listen to them. But really, when you reject tradition to the extent you have, that's all you're doing. Be honest with yourself.

[jundo cohen]

Wow, this is the first time I have ever heard someone who calls himself a Zen teacher completely discount traditional Chinese medicine, yin/yang theory, and the opinions of the very founder of the school he purports to be an heir to (and who obviously put in a lot more practice time than he has), and these not just as things that may or may not even be utilitarian and provisionally workable, but as "quaint," and mere "hogwash". What truly colossal chutzpah!

Too, your own cultural chauvinism may be sufficient reason to reject thousands of years of Asian lore about physiology in one fell swoop, but your remark also shows that you are completely unfamiliar with Western psychological research on the hemispherical functioning of the brain that shows the brain's two sides do indeed have complementary functions, which do, indeed, play out in human psychophysical activity.

Your comments here and elsewhere show you to be a poster boy for reductive, arrogant, and self-opinionated Buddhist modernism, regardless of your lip service to modesty. I am beginning to think that it must be very easy to get teaching imprimatur in modern Soto Zen.

Why do modernists bother to call themselves Buddhist? Probably because if they just said, "Come study with me; I have great ideas about the most profound questions of human existence," no one would come. They need the charismatic word "Zen", or "tantra" or "Dzogchen", as well as the supposed legitimacy of centuries to get people to listen to them. But really, when you reject tradition to the extent you have, that's all you're doing. Be honest with yourself.

Thank you for your Teaching on modesty and freedom from self-opinions.

Gassho, Jundo

[Zhen Li]

You really don't need western psychology to teach you about the benefits and truth of our bodily energy systems, I think anyone with more than shallow mindfulness can see these in action.

[mañjughoṣamaṇi]

Wow, this is the first time I have ever heard someone who calls himself a Zen teacher completely discount traditional Chinese medicine, yin/yang theory, and the opinions of the very founder of the school he purports to be an heir to (and who obviously put in a lot more practice time than he has), and these not just as things that may or may not even be utilitarian and provisionally workable, but as "quaint," and mere "hogwash". What truly colossal chutzpah!

Too, your own cultural chauvinism may be sufficient reason to reject thousands of years of Asian lore about physiology in one fell swoop, but your remark also shows that you are completely unfamiliar with Western psychological research on the hemispherical functioning of the brain that shows the brain's two sides do indeed have complementary functions, which do, indeed, play out in human psychophysical activity.

Your comments here and elsewhere show you to be a poster boy for reductive, arrogant, and self-opinionated Buddhist modernism, regardless of your lip service to modesty. I am beginning to think that it must be very easy to get teaching imprimatur in modern Soto Zen.

Why do modernists bother to call themselves Buddhist? Probably because if they just said, "Come study with me; I have great ideas about the most profound questions of human existence," no one would come. They need the charismatic word "Zen", or "tantra" or "Dzogchen", as well as the supposed legitimacy of centuries to get people to listen to them. But really, when you reject tradition to the extent you have, that's all you're doing. Be honest with yourself.

[Malcolm]

Too, your own cultural chauvinism may be sufficient reason to reject thousands of years of Asian lore about physiology in one fell swoop, but your remark also shows that you are completely unfamiliar with Western psychological research on the hemispherical functioning of the brain that shows the brain's two sides do indeed have complementary functions, which do, indeed, play out in human psychophysical activity.

Well, you do have to bear in mind that Jundo's teacher thinks the goal of seated practice is to cause a spontaneous alignment of the vertebrae of the spinal column resulting in a balanced "body-mind" which, according to him, is the essence of Soto practice. Here is his own summary of his theory of Zazen:

• When he was 29 years old he left the palace in search of the meaning of life, and after several years, when he was 35 or 36, after adopting a simple method of physical practice that balanced his body and mind, he discovered what he had been searching for; he found that the world exists just at this time and in this place, and that the whole universe is splendid just as it is. For many years he taught his disciples about the simple practice and what it meant as the essential truth that all human beings should know. Gautama Buddha was not a god, but a man. And he taught that we can all return to our original state, which is serene and peace- ful. His teachings are not spiritual, but essentially humanistic; with this simple practice we can all attain our perfection as hu- man beings.
  

And:

• What do we experience in Zazen?
  
  Zazen is the simplest form of action, and when we are practicing
  Zazen we do not intentionally think about anything or concentrate
  on our feelings and perceptions. We sit in a simple nondiscriminating
  state where our body-and-mind are balanced and
  undivided. However, in order to discuss the state in Zazen we
  cannot avoid making divisions and categorizations. In spite of
  these categorizations, the actual experience of Zazen remains a
  wholistic one.
  
  We can describe four aspects in the practice of Zazen. They
  are: 1) Different from thinking; 2) Making the body right; 3) Oneness
  of body-and-mind; and 4) Oneness with the Universe.
  
  1. Different from Thinking
  The state in Zazen is without intention and is different from thinking.
  This statement sounds strange as we normally believe that
  we are always thinking. We avoid intentionally following a train
  of thought during Zazen by concentrating on maintaining the
  posture. Of course spontaneous thoughts and images arise in
  our consciousness during Zazen, but they are not important.
  When we notice that we are thinking about something, we should
  simply stop. If we correct our posture, the thought or perception
  will disappear and our consciousness will slowly become clear
  and we will feel peaceful. In this peaceful and balanced state,
  we are in the state that is “different from thinking.”
  
  However, if we intentionally try to attain the state that is different
  from thinking, we can never do so. When our consciousness
  is full of thoughts and feelings during Zazen, we should
  leave our state as it is. Our worries will bubble to the surface
  and evaporate into the universe! In this way, by concentrating
  on the posture, we will return naturally to our original state
  during our practice.
  
  2. Making the Body Right—a Balanced Autonomic Nervous System
  
  In Zazen we sit on a cushion on the floor with both legs crossed,
  and with our lower spine, upper spine, and head held straight
  vertically. Keeping the spine straight has a direct and immediate
  effect on the autonomic nervous system that controls many of
  our body’s functions. Its effects include control of heart rate and
  force of contraction, constriction and dilatation of blood vessels,
  contraction and relaxation of smooth muscle in various organs,
  the ability to focus the eyes and the size of the pupils, and the
  secretion of hormones from various glands directly into the blood
  stream.
  
  The autonomic nervous system is composed of two subsystems:
  the sympathetic and the parasympathetic nervous systems.
  When the sympathetic nervous system is stimulated, our
  heart rate increases, arteries and veins constrict, the lungs relax,
  and our pupils dilate; in short, we become tense and alert. When
  the parasympathetic nervous system is stimulated, the opposite
  happens; our heart rate decreases, arteries and veins dilate, the
  lungs contract, and the pupils constrict. You can see that the two
  systems prepare the body for an active or passive response—
  sometimes known as the “fight or flight” syndrome. When the
  effect of the two systems on the organs is in balance, we are neither
  ready to fight, nor ready to run away; we are in a normal
  state.
  
  The parasympathetic nerves emerge from the spinal chord
  at the base of the spine (the second, third and fourth sacral vertebrae)
  and through the cranial vertebrae in the neck, whereas
  the sympathetic nerves emerge from the spinal chord through
  the middle vertebrae in the back (the T1 to L2 vertebrae).
  Keeping the spine normally upright, with the
  head sitting squarely on the top of the
  vertebral column minimizes the compression
  of the nerves of these two systems
  at the points where the nerves
  emerge through the vertebrae,
  and ensures an uninterrupted
  supply of blood, allowing them
  to function normally. When the
  parasympathetic and sympathetic
  systems are both working
  normally, they function in
  opposition to give us a state of
  balance of body-and-mind; not
  too tense, and not too relaxed,
  not overly optimistic or pessimistic;
  not too aggressive
  and not too passive. It is this physical state of balance in the
  autonomic nervous system that give rise to what we call a balanced
  body-and-mind.
  
  In addition to this, sitting in the upright posture, where the
  force of gravity acts down through the spine onto the pelvis, is a
  position in which our body’s reflexes can work efficiently to integrate
  the functioning of the whole body.
  
  3. Oneness of Body and Mind in the Present Moment
  Usually we think there is something that is called “mind” and
  something else called “body” and that the two are separate, although
  they have a great effect on each other. In Buddhism we
  believe that body and mind are two sides of one entity, which
  we call “myself,” but that we actually cannot fully grasp. We
  believe that every mental phenomenon has a physical side, and
  every physical phenomenon has a mental side. We do not believe
  in the independent existence of something called “mind”
  that is separate from the physical body, brain, nervous system,
  and so on. When we sit in Zazen, because we do not concentrate
  on thoughts, or perceptions, our body-and-mind exist undivided
  in the present moment. When our mind is in the ordinary state
  and our autonomic nervous system is balanced, we are in the
  “balanced state of body-and-mind.”
  
  4. Oneness with the Universe
  When we are practicing Zazen, not only can we say that bodyand-
  mind are one; we are also sitting in the state where there is
  no distinction between ourselves and the external circumstances—
  the world around us. Most people have at some time
  experienced this simple feeling of oneness with everything, and
  in Zazen we can notice that it is not just a feeling, but the actual
  state of things in the present moment. When we are sitting in
  Zazen we are one with the Universe, and the state includes all
  things and phenomena. In that sense, although we are experiencing
  the state, we cannot grasp it intellectually. We cannot
  describe it completely. We call the state “ineffable,” or “dharma,”
  or “truth,” or “reality.” But even these words are inadequate to
  describe the simple and original state that we return to in Zazen.

http://terebess.hu/zen/mesterek/NishijimaZazen.pdf