Personal Vows in the West, Important or no?

[take2daily]

[Mod note: The OP relativized their statements in their next post: http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.ph ... 06#p320868 ]

I have thought about a post that I can make to ask a question I may have. So I pose this question to the digital Sangha. If I study & follow the Dharma and I take refuge in the Buddha regardless of what school of thought I aspire to follow and my meditation practice is fulfilling and all these actions lead me to believe in my heart that I am on the right path to liberation from Samsara and I vow to aid all sentient beings in this regard, how do I vow to do this without a teacher or a physical monastic Sangha ?

I have reviewed these aspects of my ability to meet some criteria. In the west one has to have large amounts of money to go to retreat to take refuge in a masters midst. To join a proper community one must pledge to donate money. To attend a small groups of practitioners one will be asked to donate to the cause and the Main focus of the group on the underside seems to be for the purpose of peddling the spiritual leaders books from every alcove. What is one to do then to solidify in one's mind that he or she is recognized as a devotee. Is this even necessary? What about Bodhisattva Vows or Tantric Vows? No negative intent meant but genuine concern..

[Johnny Dangerous]

I have thought about a post that I can make to ask a question I may have. So I pose this question to the digital Sangha. If I study & follow the Dharma and I take refuge in the Buddha regardless of what school of thought I aspire to follow and my meditation practice is fulfilling and all these actions lead me to believe in my heart that I am on the right path to liberation from Samsara and I vow to aid all sentient beings in this regard, how do I vow to do this without a teacher or a physical monastic Sangha ?

I have reviewed these aspects of my ability to meet some criteria. In the west one has to have large amounts of money to go to retreat to take refuge in a masters midst. To join a proper community one must pledge to donate money. To attend a small groups of practitioners one will be asked to donate to the cause and the Main focus of the group on the underside seems to be for the purpose of peddling the spiritual leaders books from every alcove. What is one to do then to solidify in one's mind that he or she is recognized as a devotee. Is this even necessary? What about Bodhisattva Vows or Tantric Vows? No negative intent meant but genuine concern..

1) The centers i've been to (a fair number at this point) I've been to do not require money, you give what you can.

2) There are plenty of places and fantastic teachers that you can take the precepts and Bodhisattvas vows with, for little or no money.

As far as whether you should, well...I was told you should do both, take 'official' vows with a preceptor, as well as taking the vows you make seriously every practice. There is IMO something tangible and quite powerful to doing it "officially", so personally i'd say go for it.

[take2daily]

Thank you for your reply.. JD, I have looked at what I wrote and it's apparent to me that I am a bit taken back by all the focus on money and I should get over it I guess.. These organizations I am speak about have to do something to keep the doors open. I have a diluted vision of what I expect where I should have no expectation.. I will endeavor to reach out to a few of the local Songha's. If I have nothing to give and I am searching for a better understanding and I am sincere things will work out for the good.. It's always the case where pointing the finger inward is the best first response to any issue that one faces.. Thanks again..

[Johnny Dangerous]

Thank you for your reply.. JD, I have looked at what I wrote and it's apparent to me that I am a bit taken back by all the focus on money and I should get over it I guess.. These organizations I am speak about have to do something to keep the doors open. I have a diluted vision of what I expect where I should have no expectation.. I will endeavor to reach out to a few of the local Songha's. If I have nothing to give and I am searching for a better understanding and I am sincere things will work out for the good.. It's always the case where pointing the finger inward is the best first response to any issue that one faces.. Thanks again..

Look around for Lamas (if you're looking into the Tibetan tradition) that do refuge ceremonies regularly, etc. IME there are a variety of Buddhist teachers (Tibetan and non) around you can take refuge with, often without "joining" anything, or paying at all.

If you can afford to give dana though, there is no good reason not to, especially if you are taking refuge.

[Carlita]

I have thought about a post that I can make to ask a question I may have. So I pose this question to the digital Sangha. If I study & follow the Dharma and I take refuge in the Buddha regardless of what school of thought I aspire to follow and my meditation practice is fulfilling and all these actions lead me to believe in my heart that I am on the right path to liberation from Samsara and I vow to aid all sentient beings in this regard, how do I vow to do this without a teacher or a physical monastic Sangha ?

I have reviewed these aspects of my ability to meet some criteria. In the west one has to have large amounts of money to go to retreat to take refuge in a masters midst. To join a proper community one must pledge to donate money. To attend a small groups of practitioners one will be asked to donate to the cause and the Main focus of the group on the underside seems to be for the purpose of peddling the spiritual leaders books from every alcove. What is one to do then to solidify in one's mind that he or she is recognized as a devotee. Is this even necessary? What about Bodhisattva Vows or Tantric Vows? No negative intent meant but genuine concern..

I live in America, so I agree that one must have money to participate in a religion in which, from am American perspective, shouldn't require money. Here are some perspectives.

I live in Christian VA where there is only one Pure Land temple that I know of. I went there and they ask for donations. I called a theravada temple and asked him about money requirements and he remarked, "Noo! I never heard of that."

Over the water, in DC the SGI organization has a different perspective. They ask for money (rather than custom of donation) so to help with world peace. Extremely political. People "donate" hundred of dollars towards the cause. To get the Dharma scroll we pay $20 and the accessaries for it.

It was explained by an SGI friend that the money is going towards a good cause, shipment, handling, and copying of the scroll. One of many questions I'd like to get a deeper understanding of.

We have a Shoshu temple in MD that is pretty much the same but more aggressive with money.

I went to Veitnamese Zen temple with my friend and before you come in, it's customary to give food or money to the monk. I didn't know; but, my friend explained it for me in their langauge.

First find a school you are comfortable with. In other countries, people offer food because we need tood to surive; that's their way of sacrificing what they need most to someone else. In America, we value (materalistically) money. So, in addition to costs etc, it was told to me that giving up money is like another giving up food. If you can do that with no expecation in return, there is no difference between the two.

My advice is only go to a school with which you are comfortable with and who ask for money and food as Donations. The monastary I'd like go to go soon before it gets to cold, the monks come down to town and let the people in town give them food without them asking. So when people visit their monastary, we give food, offer our service, and money. They don't ask.

It is also somewhat realistic. Do what you can afford. I haven't heard other schools be forceful other than a couple I have in mind. Good intent, not an appropriate way of exchanging money for practice.

[Johnny Dangerous]

Also, looking at giving dana as a negative is IMO wrong-headed, there are certainly people out there making money off Dharma in a questionable way, but the act of giving it is positive. We put money into all kinds of worthless garbage all the time, so why be stingy about Dana? If you are donating to a center, temple etc. that you know is using the money well to spread Dharma teachings etc., not only is it worth giving money to, it's worth prioritizing giving to, it should be viewed as the most worthwhile expenditure of money, rather than some inconvenience.

[tingdzin]

Taking of vows is not something that should be undertaken too lightly. One could take refuge vows, for example, alone, although it's better with a preceptor, but be sure you know what you're getting into. In refuge, for example can you really put aside relying on means of liberation other than the Buddha? Can you make a sincere and continuing effort to avoid harming sentient beings? Can you henceforth not be swayed by those who would persuade you that some other ideology is more true or more valuable than the teachings of the Buddhist path?

If you really understand the implications of the vows you want to take (and you should read up as much as you can on this beforehand), you can take them alone (except Vajrayana -- tantric-- vows which of course require a teacher, that's just the way it is). It is very useful from a practical standpoint to take them with a teacher, though, because you will find that you take more seriously something you undertook in front of a human witness who has previously undertaken the same training, This is partially because human interaction brings home that we aren't just swimming around in our own individual universe of thoughts any longer, but are really doing something concrete. It is also partially because we are recognizing that we are joining a community of those who are working towards the same goals as we are (whether or not we have the chance to or choose to interact with these people in the future). Also, if you take vows in the Tibetan tradition with someone who knows you at least a little bit, they will give you a name which can give you clues about your character and what your practice might best emphasize; this can be very valuable.

What you might do is study up on what teachers from various traditions have said about these vows, and then take them alone provisionally. Then when you get a chance, you can take them again as part of the particular tradition you have chosen to follow.

[明安 Myoan]

My experience is a little different.
The depth of your vows depends on your daily commitment to practice, through all the ups and downs.
A formal ceremony lasts a little while, then is done for the rest of your life. My refuge ceremony did not ultimately make my practice any easier or more sincere.
But I've read others describe it as a very moving and pivotal moment in their lives.

[Ayu]

I saw people taking refuge twice, because the first time their attitude was not deep enough.

[Johnny Dangerous]

I saw people taking refuge twice, because the first time their attitude was not deep enough.

I've been told it's not a bad idea to re take your vows every so often for this reason, don't know my opinion, just saying I've been told, heh.

[Ayu]

For me the ceremony of taking refuge was a unique, enchanting, extraordinary & wonderful occasion. I cannot imagine any need to repeat that.
But some people like to take refuge again, when they found their real teacher finally.

Taking vows is a personal thing and one does it also at home, alone, to renew them. Probably daily.

I never heard somebody had to "pay" for it explicitly. But the sangha needs dana, that's for sure. How should you meet the teacher and where, if there is no money for the house and the travel costs?

[Punya]

I have reviewed these aspects of my ability to meet some criteria. In the west one has to have large amounts of money to go to retreat to take refuge in a masters midst. To join a proper community one must pledge to donate money. To attend a small groups of practitioners one will be asked to donate to the cause and the Main focus of the group on the underside seems to be for the purpose of peddling the spiritual leaders books from every alcove.

You are making some pretty sweeping statements about how things are in the west. Perhaps you have a bad experience or two but what you are saying is not true of all groups. You might find this discussion interesting in terms of the pros and cons of dharma centres covering their costs through course fees, etc
http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=18294

[take2daily]

I have reviewed these aspects of my ability to meet some criteria. In the west one has to have large amounts of money to go to retreat to take refuge in a masters midst. To join a proper community one must pledge to donate money. To attend a small groups of practitioners one will be asked to donate to the cause and the Main focus of the group on the underside seems to be for the purpose of peddling the spiritual leaders books from every alcove.

You are making some pretty sweeping statements about how things are in the west. Perhaps you have a bad experience or two but what you are saying is not true of all groups. You might find this discussion interesting in terms of the pros and cons of dharma centres covering their costs through course fees, etc
http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=18294

I agree wholeheartedly that my statement only reflects the experience I am having locally. I am quite sure that the spirit of giving and the need for support is a healthy thing. I am involved currently in trying to acquire some teachings here and I ran into a string of situations that were a bit negative.. I have since found resolution and moved on.. I differently was suffering from "wrong view" of what I considered my needs why all the time they were a delusion of my perception of a requirement. As always someone stepped out of the shadows and lead me in the right direction.. Namo Buddahaya.. Thanks to all for your wonderful insight.