What's lineage, what is it for, & how does it work?

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rory
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Re: What's lineage, what is it for, & how does it work?

Post by rory »

Oh my Jion Prosser was a topic when I was at the Betsuin over 10 years ago, doesn't this topic ever die? Ugh, it seems to be an obsession chewing over the non authentic Tendai people. And then the rivalry between the Hawaii and NY Betusins. Ugh, knew about it then. It's all about power and hierarchy. Believe me I heard Shingon people with their superior to Tendai talk and visa-versa. The fact is Saicho was never interested in esoteric rituals which was not a part of the Tiantai school but the Emperor and court were as they rituals were for the preservation of the state and things like ensuring a male heir. So he brought some back. He never had the esoteric knowledge or ability of Kukai.

So what? Who really cares unless it's all about keep the brand and raising money...

....Though I do think lineage is a very good thing, but in respect that I don't approve of these "Hongaku" groups that frequently turn up, this happens with Pure Land/Jodo all the time. Look at Dharmavidya, why couldn't he get trained properly? I see these new groups as personality cults full stop.

The other good aspect of sectarianism is that in Japan this has meant many many texts and sculptures and traditions have been maintained, whereas in China the esoteric school died out entirely. Ask Indrajala about the storehouse of Buddhist treasures in Japanese temples, many texts still untranslated or even unrecorded.

So yes lineage is a good thing.

Except when you pull it out in that tiresome measuring contest...Spare me, spare us all.
gassho
Rory
Namu Kanzeon Bosatsu
Chih-I:
The Tai-ching states "the women in the realms of Mara, Sakra and Brahma all neither abandoned ( their old) bodies nor received (new) bodies. They all received buddhahood with their current bodies (genshin)" Thus these verses state that the dharma nature is like a great ocean. No right or wrong is preached (within it) Ordinary people and sages are equal, without superiority or inferiority
Paul, Groner "The Lotus Sutra in Japanese Culture"eds. Tanabe p. 58
https://www.tendai-usa.org/
DGA
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Re: What's lineage, what is it for, & how does it work?

Post by DGA »

I don't buy the claim that trying to understand the facts of a situation is the same as groping after power. And speaking for myself, I have no investment in any of that, no position to defend or promote, and nothing to gain from any kind of machination. Anyway, I'm not aware of any rivalry between the NY Betsuin and the Hawaii Betsuin, but I can recognize a superior attitude when I see one.
rory wrote:Except when you pull it out in that tiresome measuring contest...Spare me, spare us all.
With regard to the rest of your post: you might also want to brush up on your scholarship on Saicho, esoteric practice, and the approach he took to winning over the powers that be. You may be surprised at what you find.
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rory
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Re: What's lineage, what is it for, & how does it work?

Post by rory »

DGA wrote:I don't buy the claim that trying to understand the facts of a situation is the same as groping after power. And speaking for myself, I have no investment in any of that, no position to defend or promote, and nothing to gain from any kind of machination. Anyway, I'm not aware of any rivalry between the NY Betsuin and the Hawaii Betsuin, but I can recognize a superior attitude when I see one.

With regard to the rest of your post: you might also want to brush up on your scholarship on Saicho, esoteric practice, and the approach he took to winning over the powers that be. You may be surprised at what you find.
All anyone needs to know is this Mui guy is neither a Tendai nor a Shingon Ajari, that tells it all. And yes, you do seem to only pop up in Tendai discusssions to play Dharma cop, patrolling the mean streets, either chastising Seishin for actually trying to start a positive discussion of Tendai or again in this thread dragging up the tired body of Jion Prosser, who left the NY Betsuin and then became a disciple of Ara Sensei of Hawaii and was the first caucasion to complete the full gyo on Mt. Hiei. So let's not be coy, you didn't have to resurrect the dead unless you wanted to.

But you know what I am interested in Tendai and would like to have a positive, engaging discussion. So...

As to Saicho, what new scholarship is there, I just checked the library catalogue, are you talking about Jinhua Chen's new book?
Legend and legitimation : the formation of Tendai esoteric Buddhism in Japan
Chen, Jinhua, 1966-
Bruxelles : Institut belge des hautes études chinoises, 2009.

As yes, I haven't read it and it looks very interesting, as to Groner, read that ages ago. What is new and different then? I'd like to know.
gassho
Rory
Namu Kanzeon Bosatsu
Chih-I:
The Tai-ching states "the women in the realms of Mara, Sakra and Brahma all neither abandoned ( their old) bodies nor received (new) bodies. They all received buddhahood with their current bodies (genshin)" Thus these verses state that the dharma nature is like a great ocean. No right or wrong is preached (within it) Ordinary people and sages are equal, without superiority or inferiority
Paul, Groner "The Lotus Sutra in Japanese Culture"eds. Tanabe p. 58
https://www.tendai-usa.org/
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Techno Yogi
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Re: What's lineage, what is it for, & how does it work?

Post by Techno Yogi »

Lineage, like the concept of "tradition", is often an invention made in the present to legitimize certain practices or ideas by conjuring up an imagined past.

Many radical innovations are dressed up in the language of tradition: a return to the roots, a hidden lineage now publicly declaring itself, perhaps even a special transmission outside the scriptures and established hierarchies.

Once these claims are made the and the innovation becomes accepted, lineages often undergo periodic reinventions to accommodate the needs of their members. These reinventions are sometimes then grafted onto the origin story to create the illusion of a seamless, unbroken continuity, stretching back to the ancestor. Thus the lineage or tradition is never truly static, but its constant evolutions are woven into the invented history to create the illusion of stability.

None of this, by the way, denies the value of lineage or tradition. But I think we should see these as rhetorical strategies and useful fictions (aka "skillful means") rather than some kind of historical truth or absolute legitimizing claims.

The worth of a teacher or practice does not lie in any pedigree leading back to the Buddha; it's whether or not they can deliver results, here and now.

More on this subject of "invented tradition" by David Chapman: http://meaningness.com/invented-traditi ... rn-futures
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Re: What's lineage, what is it for, & how does it work?

Post by DGA »

Techno Yogi wrote:
More on this subject of "invented tradition" by David Chapman: http://meaningness.com/invented-traditi ... rn-futures
Chapman cites Hobsbawm, a brilliant historian, so he's off on the right foot with me.

I agree with your post generally. In the context of Buddhism, it's useful to distinguish lineage, which is contingent and constantly being re-done and re-discipined, from transmission, which has a different function and may or may not coincide with lineage.
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Re: What's lineage, what is it for, & how does it work?

Post by GDPR_Anonymized001 »

rory wrote:The fact is Saicho was never interested in esoteric rituals which was not a part of the Tiantai school but the Emperor and court were as they rituals were for the preservation of the state and things like ensuring a male heir. So he brought some back.
Hi Rory, on what basis do you make this claim? It seems you've mixed your chronology up a bit. May I suggest Ryuichi Abe's excellent work: "Saicho and Kukai" available here: https://nirc.nanzan-u.ac.jp/nfile/2562
rory wrote:...Jion Prosser, who left the NY Betsuin and then became a disciple of Ara Sensei of Hawaii and was the first caucasion[sic] to complete the full gyo on Mt. Hiei
Rory, none of what you write above is correct.
DGA wrote:In the context of Buddhism, it's useful to distinguish lineage, which is contingent and constantly being re-done and re-discipined, from transmission, which has a different function and may or may not coincide with lineage.
You have highlighted a key point here, I think. While the overall thread topic is on lineage the crux of the matter is, I'd argue, transmission. As I understand it, this was the whole reason for Saicho to travel to China, no?
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rory
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Re: What's lineage, what is it for, & how does it work?

Post by rory »

Well I've just returned from the library and Groner updated his work on Saicho with a an intro, saying recent research shows Saicho read esoteric texts before he went to China. So yes that's an advance to the old story. Hmm, the "Saicho and Kukai" is from 1995, dated/. I read Groner's precis on their relations so what does the new scholarship say; you must read Japanese.
At the same time Jinhua Chen's book posits that Saicho's Dharma heirs forged texts and transmissions to make Saicho look more accomplished as yes, Kukai spent years and his esoteric master was prominent whilst Saicho spent little time and studied with a nobody.

Again, it's all about the rivalry between two competing brands: Tendai and Shingon.

Now as to Jion Prosser, I certainly could be wrong about him being the first caucasion, he did serve at the Hawaii Betusin. Saying someone is wrong is unhelpful unless you fill them in with the correct information. No matter what he completed the gyo, was ordained ages ago and shouldn't be dragged up. Who knows what happened to him and what his life is like now; we're supposed to evince a drop of compassion.

So Jake are you the person that used to go to Keisho Leary?
gassho
Rory
Namu Kanzeon Bosatsu
Chih-I:
The Tai-ching states "the women in the realms of Mara, Sakra and Brahma all neither abandoned ( their old) bodies nor received (new) bodies. They all received buddhahood with their current bodies (genshin)" Thus these verses state that the dharma nature is like a great ocean. No right or wrong is preached (within it) Ordinary people and sages are equal, without superiority or inferiority
Paul, Groner "The Lotus Sutra in Japanese Culture"eds. Tanabe p. 58
https://www.tendai-usa.org/
DGA
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Re: What's lineage, what is it for, & how does it work?

Post by DGA »

rory wrote:Well I've just returned from the library and Groner updated his work on Saicho with a an intro, saying recent research shows Saicho read esoteric texts before he went to China. So yes that's an advance to the old story. Hmm, the "Saicho and Kukai" is from 1995, dated/. I read Groner's precis on their relations so what does the new scholarship say; you must read Japanese.
At the same time Jinhua Chen's book posits that Saicho's Dharma heirs forged texts and transmissions to make Saicho look more accomplished as yes, Kukai spent years and his esoteric master was prominent whilst Saicho spent little time and studied with a nobody.

Again, it's all about the rivalry between two competing brands: Tendai and Shingon.

Now as to Jion Prosser, I certainly could be wrong about him being the first caucasion, he did serve at the Hawaii Betusin. Saying someone is wrong is unhelpful unless you fill them in with the correct information. No matter what he completed the gyo, was ordained ages ago and shouldn't be dragged up. Who knows what happened to him and what his life is like now; we're supposed to evince a drop of compassion.

So Jake are you the person that used to go to Keisho Leary?
gassho
Rory
Yes, you're wrong about Prosser being the first Caucasian in this context. The first was probably William Sturgis Bigelow. I haven't been able to find any before him. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Sturgis_Bigelow Before Prosser was also Jonathan Driscoll, who trained on Hiei-zan in the 1970s. There were others. Jake was too polite to point this out to you.

You imply that no one has shown Prosser a "drop of compassion" but shown no evidence for this claim? I've never met the man myself, but I have wondered what he is up to these days, even though that is largely irrelevant to this conversation. I hope he's well.

As I suggested before, you might wish to recheck the narrative on Saicho's appeals to the Emperor late in his life, when he was attempting to establish a training temple on Hiei. Was it indeed the strength of esoteric practice that he relied on, or was it...something else? He knew better than to expect that would the Emperor support another esoteric temple in Japan, with Kukai's program already well underway at Koya-san. Keep reading.

Two more points.

The scholarship in this area moves very slowly, in no small part because there are few academics out there with the specialized skills and archive access needed to advance it. A twenty-year old article may be dated, but if it hasn't been challenged or superseded by new findings, it remains current. What has superseded the 1995 "Saicho and Kukai" article? Remember your own advice: "Saying someone is wrong is unhelpful unless you fill them in with the correct information."

Esoteric practice in Tendai primarily draws on Ennin, especially and increasingly after Ryogen. Groner's book on Ryogen is too quickly overlooked in these conversations.
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Re: What's lineage, what is it for, & how does it work?

Post by DGA »

rory wrote:
DGA wrote:I don't buy the claim that trying to understand the facts of a situation is the same as groping after power. And speaking for myself, I have no investment in any of that, no position to defend or promote, and nothing to gain from any kind of machination. Anyway, I'm not aware of any rivalry between the NY Betsuin and the Hawaii Betsuin, but I can recognize a superior attitude when I see one.

With regard to the rest of your post: you might also want to brush up on your scholarship on Saicho, esoteric practice, and the approach he took to winning over the powers that be. You may be surprised at what you find.
All anyone needs to know is this Mui guy is neither a Tendai nor a Shingon Ajari, that tells it all. And yes, you do seem to only pop up in Tendai discusssions to play Dharma cop, patrolling the mean streets, either chastising Seishin for actually trying to start a positive discussion of Tendai or again in this thread dragging up the tired body of Jion Prosser, who left the NY Betsuin and then became a disciple of Ara Sensei of Hawaii and was the first caucasion to complete the full gyo on Mt. Hiei. So let's not be coy, you didn't have to resurrect the dead unless you wanted to.

But you know what I am interested in Tendai and would like to have a positive, engaging discussion. So...

As to Saicho, what new scholarship is there, I just checked the library catalogue, are you talking about Jinhua Chen's new book?
Legend and legitimation : the formation of Tendai esoteric Buddhism in Japan
Chen, Jinhua, 1966-
Bruxelles : Institut belge des hautes études chinoises, 2009.

As yes, I haven't read it and it looks very interesting, as to Groner, read that ages ago. What is new and different then? I'd like to know.
gassho
Rory
:lol:

I see two trends at work here. Trend one:

You claim that I am in the habit of chastising Seishin in public. When have I ever chastised Seishin for anything? He's my friend; we're in regular contact by Facebook message and email. Any evidence in support of this claim?

Are you claiming that every post I have made in the Tendai subforum corresponds to some kind of presumed Dharma police role? Any evidence for this claim, either?

I didn't say that you should seek out new scholarship on the question of how Saicho was able to convince the Emperor to give him a temple and ordination platform on Hiei-san. I'm suggesting that you may need to go back and reread what you think you have already mastered, because--and here's the trend--you clearly misunderstand much of what you read. I assume I am not the first to make this observation to you. One thing I learned in graduate school is that no one's reading is infallible... except in the case of a cluster-b personality, who is always right no matter what. Ever met one of those? I have.

Trend two, also in evidence in the first two examples given above.

Mui's interesting precisely because he's not claiming to be a Tendai or a Shingon practitioner, even though he also and simultaneously relies heavily on Tendai forms and conventions and language in the construction of his new school. Your post quoted above shows a high degree of either-or, black-or-white thinking: DGA's a Dharma cop here, it's either this or that. It's called splitting. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Splitting ... chology%29

I agree that a positive conversation about lineage, which is the purpose of this thread, would be far preferable to hashing out all this personal stuff you chose to bring into the conversation.
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Re: What's lineage, what is it for, & how does it work?

Post by DGA »

I wasn't explicit about something in an earlier post.

Take a look at Groner's biography of Ryogen. You will find that it was Ennin who institutionalized the art of winning influence by using esoteric ritual, and Ryogen who really exploited it, within Tendai. All that happened after Saicho's time. I'll leave this mystery untouched, though: What did Saicho have to offer the Emperor that Kukai didn't have that promised magical protection powers to the Japanese nation?
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Re: What's lineage, what is it for, & how does it work?

Post by GDPR_Anonymized001 »

DGA wrote: As I suggested before, you might wish to recheck the narrative on Saicho's appeals to the Emperor late in his life, when he was attempting to establish a training temple on Hiei. Was it indeed the strength of esoteric practice that he relied on, or was it...something else? He knew better than to expect that would the Emperor support another esoteric temple in Japan, with Kukai's program already well underway at Koya-san. Keep reading.
I understand that these are raised as general broad brush points intended to inform discussion but to be fair the implied chronology above is perhaps a bit off.

Mt. Koya was granted to Kukai by the emperor in 816 but was privately supported for a long time. It wasn't until 835 Shingon was granted Imperial support for yearly ordinands on Mt. Koya. I think you may have meant Kukai's efforts at To-ji which he helped to complete and was then permitted to teach Shingon. Also, of interest may be that in 834 Kukai sought and was granted permission to establish an esoteric chapel in the Palace to allow for an annual ritual to ensure the health of the state.

I do find the transition and social change brought about by the new schools of Buddhism very interesting and well worth discussing but perhaps not best suited to this thread.

Jake
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Re: What's lineage, what is it for, & how does it work?

Post by DGA »

Thanks for the correction, Jake. My understanding of Shingon history is, as you well know, weak stuff.

And confidential to rory: I apologize for being more confrontational than may be necessary in my responses to you in this thread. I stand by the content of what I said, though.
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rory
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Re: What's lineage, what is it for, & how does it work?

Post by rory »

JIkan; I'm not cross with what you said. I daresay I was too harsh, as I was cross that the positive thread on altars was ended in the Tendai forum. It's pretty moribund there and I was glad to see some kind of positive discussion to encourage those who might be interested. But then it's not my business to be cross about the Tendai forum. I notice you started a very positive thread on studying the Lotus Sutra, so that's great and very admirable.

About Saicho, it has been ages since I read both studies so I'm sure I didn't remember correctly. Though I disagree about the Ryuichi Abe article, as Jinhua Chen give quite a different take on the Saicho-Kukai relationship. And it hasn't been disputed yet, and there is the new work on Saicho in Japanese. So since none of us here reads Japanese I'd say Jikai is the one to post about what is going on.

Jake; you never answered me so if you think I was wrong present proof or some kind of argument.

Mui, is just some guy making up a synthetic school, there is always various lame persons trying to make up a Pure Land school to get followers; they're idiiots....This is what lineage is for.

Transmission is a very different thing, important for all esoteric lineages, existant in exoteric ones even in Jodo but not something I really worry over in my practice.
gassho
Rory
Namu Kanzeon Bosatsu
Chih-I:
The Tai-ching states "the women in the realms of Mara, Sakra and Brahma all neither abandoned ( their old) bodies nor received (new) bodies. They all received buddhahood with their current bodies (genshin)" Thus these verses state that the dharma nature is like a great ocean. No right or wrong is preached (within it) Ordinary people and sages are equal, without superiority or inferiority
Paul, Groner "The Lotus Sutra in Japanese Culture"eds. Tanabe p. 58
https://www.tendai-usa.org/
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