Result of Karma

General forum on the teachings of all schools of Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhism. Topics specific to one school are best posted in the appropriate sub-forum.
Norden
Posts: 122
Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2011 8:31 am

Result of Karma

Post by Norden »

Hi all,

Buddha says the precise working of karma is imponderable. But we often see Buddha says in the Sutra that killing living beings will result in short life, get killed, born disabled, etc., stealing will result in poverty and not trusted by others it the result of lying.

I'm trying to understand between these two views, they seem to be contradict each other. If the result of karma is imponderable that means one who kills will experience poverty/ not trusted by others not short-lived as the result of killing living beings, right? But obviously we never see that consequences in the Sutra. Can anyone share your thought how to understand this? Thanks.
User avatar
Grigoris
Former staff member
Posts: 21938
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: Result of Karma

Post by Grigoris »

Norden wrote:Hi all,

Buddha says the precise working of karma is imponderable. But we often see Buddha says in the Sutra that killing living beings will result in short life, get killed, born disabled, etc., stealing will result in poverty and not trusted by others it the result of lying.

I'm trying to understand between these two views, they seem to be contradict each other. If the result of karma is imponderable that means one who kills will experience poverty/ not trusted by others not short-lived as the result of killing living beings, right? But obviously we never see that consequences in the Sutra. Can anyone share your thought how to understand this? Thanks.
You need to find the context for the "imponderable" remark. A Buddha is omniscient and can see the workings of karma for each sentient being, for us though the workings are imponderable. The Buddha did give us some hints though. You may also like this teaching if you are interested in the workings of karma.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
AlexMcLeod
Posts: 368
Joined: Sun Mar 20, 2016 2:54 am

Re: Result of Karma

Post by AlexMcLeod »

Norden wrote:Hi all,

Buddha says the precise working of karma is imponderable. But we often see Buddha says in the Sutra that killing living beings will result in short life, get killed, born disabled, etc., stealing will result in poverty and not trusted by others it the result of lying.

I'm trying to understand between these two views, they seem to be contradict each other. If the result of karma is imponderable that means one who kills will experience poverty/ not trusted by others not short-lived as the result of killing living beings, right? But obviously we never see that consequences in the Sutra. Can anyone share your thought how to understand this? Thanks.
The point that the Buddha was making was that results match causes, at least in type of harm. Depending on the amount of time it has had to ripen though, there can be an astronomical difference in scale. The exact workings are impossible to know because they depend entirely on the mind causing them. The only sure thing is that like causes like, and usually at a larger scale.
Relax! Smile From The Heart!
There is a difference between the Mundane and the Transcendental. If you purposefully confuse them, I will ignore you, you nihilist.
There is no Emotion, there is Peace. There is no Ignorance, there is Knowledge. There is no Passion, there is Serenity. There is no Death, there is the Force.
User avatar
Astus
Former staff member
Posts: 8883
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:22 pm
Location: Budapest

Re: Result of Karma

Post by Astus »

There are two major speeches by the Buddha on karma in the Majjhima Nikaya. In The Shorter Analysis of Action he gives the general effects of specific actions. In The Greater Analysis of Action he shows how causes and effects are a complicated matter, and one should not fall into simple generalisations. There is another important teaching, the Devadaha Sutta, where the Buddha refutes the Jain idea of the fatalist interpretation of karma, and the idea that asceticism can purify past karma.

In the Sabbasava Sutta the Buddha lists a number of topics that are not only worthless, but even harmful to ponder about:

'Was I in the past? Was I not in the past? What was I in the past? How was I in the past? Having been what, what was I in the past? Shall I be in the future? Shall I not be in the future? What shall I be in the future? How shall I be in the future? Having been what, what shall I be in the future?' Or else he is inwardly perplexed about the immediate present: 'Am I? Am I not? What am I? How am I? Where has this being come from? Where is it bound?'

The reason such questions are wrong is that they all involve one or another sort of self view. And the reason for the teaching of karma is that by seeing the consequences of bodily, verbal, and mental actions, one avoids harmful and cultivates beneficial actions. Then, through wholesome acts one can attain a level of peace and joy, and there it becomes possible to cultivate a tranquil mind, then with a tranquil mind one can attain insight, thus with insight one gains liberation. On the other hand, to take the teaching of karma as a theoretical truth to analyse, one can only fall into confusion and wrong views.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
wuyouxianren
Posts: 30
Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2016 10:48 pm
Location: Toronto, Canada

Re: Result of Karma

Post by wuyouxianren »

Norden wrote: Buddha says the precise working of karma is imponderable.
Can you provide the original source for your statement?
Thanks,

~acarefreeman
Norden
Posts: 122
Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2011 8:31 am

Re: Result of Karma

Post by Norden »

Astus wrote:There are two major speeches by the Buddha on karma in the Majjhima Nikaya. In The Shorter Analysis of Action he gives the general effects of specific actions. In The Greater Analysis of Action he shows how causes and effects are a complicated matter, and one should not fall into simple generalisations. There is another important teaching, the Devadaha Sutta, where the Buddha refutes the Jain idea of the fatalist interpretation of karma, and the idea that asceticism can purify past karma.
AlexMcLeod wrote: The point that the Buddha was making was that results match causes, at least in type of harm. Depending on the amount of time it has had to ripen though, there can be an astronomical difference in scale. The exact workings are impossible to know because they depend entirely on the mind causing them. The only sure thing is that like causes like, and usually at a larger scale.
This is what I don't understand. Killing will result in short life, stealing will result in poverty. So how is that impossible to know the precise result of karma? Is it possible for a murderer experience poverty as the result of his killing? Again, if it's not possible, then why it's said the result of karma is imponderable?
User avatar
Grigoris
Former staff member
Posts: 21938
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: Result of Karma

Post by Grigoris »

Norden wrote:Is it possible for a murderer experience poverty as the result of his killing? Again, if it's not possible, then why it's said the result of karma is imponderable?
Yes it is possible, if they killed motivated by greed (for example).

It is possible to have a vague idea of the cause which lead to the result, but it is impossible to know 100% for sure because: The cause may have arisen in previous lives and we do not have recollection of these, OR the result may have been overshadowed by other stronger causes and thus did not ripen, OR the result may be so subtle that we do not even notice that there is a result, OR we are so ignorant of causes and results that we are incapable of seeing causes and results, OR ad nauseum.

That is why it is imponderable FOR US. For a Buddha, being omniscient and all that...

So take into account the basic pointers spelt out by the Buddha and do not concern yourself too greatly with the details. All you need to know (realistically) is that (generally) unwholesome actions bring about negative results and wholesome actions bring about positive results and that motivation will colour the results. Then attune your behaviour to this reality.

Anything more than that is useless details.
Last edited by Grigoris on Sun May 29, 2016 10:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
User avatar
Astus
Former staff member
Posts: 8883
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:22 pm
Location: Budapest

Re: Result of Karma

Post by Astus »

Norden wrote:This is what I don't understand. Killing will result in short life, stealing will result in poverty. So how is that impossible to know the precise result of karma? Is it possible for a murderer experience poverty as the result of his killing? Again, if it's not possible, then why it's said the result of karma is imponderable?
Killing happens out of anger and fear, the act strengthens those feelings and harming as a solution to get rid of those feelings. Because aggression becomes the basic approach to problems in life, life itself turns to look like a fighting pit for the person. Similarly with other actions, that through influencing the thinking influence the view and experience of life. However, there are numerous other factors in the mind that modify the perception of acts and experiences. Just like one event means many things for many people, and they all react in their own ways. That's how on the one hand there are clear consequences, and on the other it is too complicated to calculate. And there is one more very important factor, the possibility to make decisions in the present, to change one's mind, and that opens the possibility for liberation, like in the story of Angulimala.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
Schrödinger’s Yidam
Posts: 7885
Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 6:13 am

Re: Result of Karma

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

...why it's said the result of karma is imponderable?
My understanding is that this means you can't reverse-engineer an event and cite a specific cause.

As an example of what you should not/are not capable of doing, let us use the example of Kalu Rinpoche's yangsi. The previous KR was publicly accused of sexual impropriety and his reincarnation has been subject to sexual abuse. However, tempting though it may be, we cannot ascribe that result to that cause. It may have been from something centuries past. We can't know that because we cannot actually see the workings of karma.

But we can understand what the effects of our actions will be going forward. However in which lifetime and under what circumstances we cannot know.

See the difference?
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
User avatar
seeker242
Posts: 2092
Joined: Sat Mar 17, 2012 2:50 pm
Location: South Florida, USA

Re: Result of Karma

Post by seeker242 »

Norden wrote:Hi all,

Buddha says the precise working of karma is imponderable. But we often see Buddha says in the Sutra that killing living beings will result in short life, get killed, born disabled, etc., stealing will result in poverty and not trusted by others it the result of lying.

I'm trying to understand between these two views, they seem to be contradict each other.
I don't see it as a contradiction because the Buddha is said to have a "Divine Eye" that allows him to directly see the workings of karma. Ordinary people can't see such things. In not being able to know the precise working, he's not referring to himself.
wuyouxianren wrote: Can you provide the original source for your statement?
Thanks,

~acarefreeman
Most likely the Acintita Sutta of the Pali Canon: AN 4.77
"There are these four unconjecturables that are not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about them. Which four?

"The Buddha-range of the Buddhas is an unconjecturable that is not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about it.

"The jhana-range of a person in jhana...

"The [precise working out of the] results of kamma...

"Conjecture about [the origin, etc., of] the world is an unconjecturable that is not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about it.

"These are the four unconjecturables that are not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about them."
One should not kill any living being, nor cause it to be killed, nor should one incite any other to kill. Do never injure any being, whether strong or weak, in this entire universe!
wuyouxianren
Posts: 30
Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2016 10:48 pm
Location: Toronto, Canada

Re: Result of Karma

Post by wuyouxianren »

seeker242 wrote:
Norden wrote:Hi all,

Buddha says the precise working of karma is imponderable. But we often see Buddha says in the Sutra that killing living beings will result in short life, get killed, born disabled, etc., stealing will result in poverty and not trusted by others it the result of lying.

I'm trying to understand between these two views, they seem to be contradict each other.
I don't see it as a contradiction because the Buddha is said to have a "Divine Eye" that allows him to directly see the workings of karma. Ordinary people can't see such things. In not being able to know the precise working, he's not referring to himself.
wuyouxianren wrote: Can you provide the original source for your statement?
Thanks,

~acarefreeman
Most likely the Acintita Sutta of the Pali Canon: AN 4.77
"There are these four unconjecturables that are not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about them. Which four?

"The Buddha-range of the Buddhas is an unconjecturable that is not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about it.

"The jhana-range of a person in jhana...

"The [precise working out of the] results of kamma...

"Conjecture about [the origin, etc., of] the world is an unconjecturable that is not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about it.

"These are the four unconjecturables that are not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about them."
Thank you, Seeker, for both answering the question and providing the source; and it is fairly clear from the context of the cited Sutra that your understanding of the term "imponderable" is correct, or at least closer to what the Buddha had originally intended to convey.

I will say more on this topic when I deem it necessary or appropriate.

~acarefreeman
Norden
Posts: 122
Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2011 8:31 am

Re: Result of Karma

Post by Norden »

smcj wrote:
...why it's said the result of karma is imponderable?
My understanding is that this means you can't reverse-engineer an event and cite a specific cause.

As an example of what you should not/are not capable of doing, let us use the example of Kalu Rinpoche's yangsi. The previous KR was publicly accused of sexual impropriety and his reincarnation has been subject to sexual abuse. However, tempting though it may be, we cannot ascribe that result to that cause. It may have been from something centuries past. We can't know that because we cannot actually see the workings of karma.

But we can understand what the effects of our actions will be going forward. However in which lifetime and under what circumstances we cannot know.

See the difference?
Thanks all for the reply.
I understand it's impossible to predict the precise cause in the past (edited), this is not what I mean.
smcj wrote: It may have been from something centuries past.
Of course it can be caused by anything in the past but it has always been related to unwholesome sexual deed in the past, right?

People say there are many supporting conditions for a result to take effect. For example, someone is murdered, the supporting conditions are: right time, right place, right incident, etc. but these are only supporting conditions, right? The final result is that person get murdered, so that person who get murdered, died young, is the result of killing. This is the precise result of kamma. It's known to us, so how is that imponderable?
Last edited by Norden on Sun May 29, 2016 2:20 pm, edited 2 times in total.
User avatar
Grigoris
Former staff member
Posts: 21938
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: Result of Karma

Post by Grigoris »

Norden wrote:Thanks all for the reply.
I understand it's impossible to predict the future, this is not what I mean.
Actually he said the complete opposite.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Norden
Posts: 122
Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2011 8:31 am

Re: Result of Karma

Post by Norden »

Sherab Dorje wrote:
Norden wrote:Thanks all for the reply.
I understand it's impossible to predict the future, this is not what I mean.
Actually he said the complete opposite.
edited
wuyouxianren
Posts: 30
Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2016 10:48 pm
Location: Toronto, Canada

Re: Result of Karma

Post by wuyouxianren »

wuyouxianren wrote:
seeker242 wrote:
Norden wrote:Hi all,

Buddha says the precise working of karma is imponderable. But we often see Buddha says in the Sutra that killing living beings will result in short life, get killed, born disabled, etc., stealing will result in poverty and not trusted by others it the result of lying.

I'm trying to understand between these two views, they seem to be contradict each other.
I don't see it as a contradiction because the Buddha is said to have a "Divine Eye" that allows him to directly see the workings of karma. Ordinary people can't see such things. In not being able to know the precise working, he's not referring to himself.
wuyouxianren wrote: Can you provide the original source for your statement?
Thanks,

~acarefreeman
Most likely the Acintita Sutta of the Pali Canon: AN 4.77
"There are these four unconjecturables that are not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about them. Which four?

"The Buddha-range of the Buddhas is an unconjecturable that is not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about it.

"The jhana-range of a person in jhana...

"The [precise working out of the] results of kamma...

"Conjecture about [the origin, etc., of] the world is an unconjecturable that is not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about it.

"These are the four unconjecturables that are not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about them."
Thank you, Seeker, for both answering the question and providing the source; and it is fairly clear from the context of the cited Sutra that your understanding of the term "imponderable" is correct, or at least closer to what the Buddha had originally intended to convey.

I will say more on this topic when I deem it necessary or appropriate.

~acarefreeman
A few more comments on the topic:
It is fairly clear from the context of the cited Sutra that the Buddha was emphasizing the subtle nature of the result and working of karma, and just like Buddha-range, jhana-range, and the origin of the world, the essence of which is vast and deep and extremely hard to grasp, the same is true of the result and/or working of karma, yet on the other hand, the Buddha had never, here or elsewhere, denied that there is a law or laws that govern the result and/or working of karma, and quite the opposite, he mentioned, and in fact emphasized, such a law or laws over and over again. So then, the term "imponderable" is rather to admonish beginning Buddhist leaners not to speculate about the working or result of karma, than to convey the message that these things are not capable of being grasped by anyone at all, the truth of which is particularly obvious in view of the fact that the Buddha himself had, in different times and at different locations, taught laws related to karma; and here the beginning Buddhist learners were warned of such speculations about the nature or working of karma because they would not help them to advance in their Buddhist path, and quite the contrary, the opposite is frequently true, since they almost always lead to madness and/or vexation, as the Buddha unequivocally stated in the Sutra.

So the message, or lesson, is: When one tries to understand a teaching or statement of the Buddha, please put that teaching or statement into the proper context first; and that was the reason why I had asked the original source of the teaching to be given.

Hope it helps.

~acarefreeman
Norden
Posts: 122
Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2011 8:31 am

Re: Result of Karma

Post by Norden »

wuyouxianren wrote: the subtle nature of the result and working of karma
What do you mean by subtle result?
Short life is the result of killing, poverty is the result of stinginess or stealing, that is clear. So why it's not thinkable?
wuyouxianren
Posts: 30
Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2016 10:48 pm
Location: Toronto, Canada

Re: Result of Karma

Post by wuyouxianren »

Norden wrote: What do you mean by subtle result?
It is subtle because it is not just a question of theory, it is also a question of direct observation; and this is especially so when bearing in mind that, to directly observe how karma works, certain levels of enlightenment are necessary.
wuyouxianren
Posts: 30
Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2016 10:48 pm
Location: Toronto, Canada

Re: Result of Karma

Post by wuyouxianren »

Norden wrote: Short life is the result of killing, poverty is the result of stinginess or stealing, that is clear.
In theory, it is so, but in practice, different factors would come into play, and the Buddha himself discussed these scenarios in related Sutras, as have been pointed out by Astus and others.
wuyouxianren
Posts: 30
Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2016 10:48 pm
Location: Toronto, Canada

Re: Result of Karma

Post by wuyouxianren »

Norden wrote: So why it's not thinkable?
When something, especially something subtle, needs direct observation to fully understand or grasp it, you do not just think about it, and that is why there are different levels of wisdoms in Buddhism: Those at the level of simply reading- or listening-and-accepting it, those at the level of contemplating- or reflecting-and-grasping it, and those at the level of direct observation or experience--the last of which necessarily come as a result of different levels of enlightenment.

I believe that I have made my point clear, and from now on I will stop making further comment on this topic.

Thanks, and Good luck!
Norden
Posts: 122
Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2011 8:31 am

Re: Result of Karma

Post by Norden »

Norden wrote:
smcj wrote:
...why it's said the result of karma is imponderable?
My understanding is that this means you can't reverse-engineer an event and cite a specific cause.

As an example of what you should not/are not capable of doing, let us use the example of Kalu Rinpoche's yangsi. The previous KR was publicly accused of sexual impropriety and his reincarnation has been subject to sexual abuse. However, tempting though it may be, we cannot ascribe that result to that cause. It may have been from something centuries past. We can't know that because we cannot actually see the workings of karma.

But we can understand what the effects of our actions will be going forward. However in which lifetime and under what circumstances we cannot know.

See the difference?
Thanks all for the reply.
I understand it's impossible to predict the precise cause in the past (edited), this is not what I mean.
smcj wrote: It may have been from something centuries past.
Of course it can be caused by anything in the past but it has always been related to unwholesome sexual deed in the past, right?

People say there are many supporting conditions for a result to take effect. For example, someone is murdered, the supporting conditions are: right time, right place, right incident, etc. but these are only supporting conditions, right? The final result is that person get murdered, so that person who get murdered, died young, is the result of killing. This is the precise result of kamma. It's known to us, so how is that imponderable?
Bump
Post Reply

Return to “Mahāyāna Buddhism”