I am reading chapter 8 of Shantideva's, "the Way of the Bodhisattva" on Meditative Concentration along with a commentary. Many of the verses in this chapter talk about how you should remain in solitude and list many reasons for why it is not worth one's time to remain in the presence of most beings. I realize this might be in context of developing meditative concentration, but the way it's written makes it sound like this is advice for any scenario.
Verses 15 and 16:
"Therefore flee the company of childish people.
Greet them, when you meet, with smiles
That keep on terms of common courtesy,
Without inviting intimate relations.
Like bees that get their honey from the flowers,
Take only what will serve the practice of the Dharma.
Treat everyone like new acquaintances
And keep yourself from close familiarity."
^^^ How do you all interpret this? I realize it doesn't have to be contradictory, but I'm curious how this squares with the bodhisattva commitment to help all beings. In my own mind, i have some friends that are difficult (for example), bUt I see my remaining friends with them as something that could be an aid to them in some way. How do you guys interpret this?
Shantideva, Way of the Bodhisattva -- Stay away from "childish beings" or help them?
Re: Shantideva, Way of the Bodhisattva -- Stay away from "childish beings" or help them?
It is as you say imo. Not contradictory.
If beings are ripe enough to be positively influenced towards virtue or even Dharma then they're not the childish ones.
With that being said , it's good to keep your distance from time to time. Helping beings in this life is commendable but you can only be truly helpful to them when you have some level of realization.
It's like those who spend their life in retreat refining wisdom. Do they have more or less compassion than those who spend their life in service to others but who realize no wisdom ? It depends on intention and long term vision.
Crude analogy but you can spend 5 hours going fishing and giving fish to people or you can spend 5 hours building fishing poles.
If beings are ripe enough to be positively influenced towards virtue or even Dharma then they're not the childish ones.
With that being said , it's good to keep your distance from time to time. Helping beings in this life is commendable but you can only be truly helpful to them when you have some level of realization.
It's like those who spend their life in retreat refining wisdom. Do they have more or less compassion than those who spend their life in service to others but who realize no wisdom ? It depends on intention and long term vision.
Crude analogy but you can spend 5 hours going fishing and giving fish to people or you can spend 5 hours building fishing poles.
'When thoughts arise, recognise them clearly as your teacher'— Gampopa
'When alone, examine your mind, when among others, examine your speech'.— Atisha
'When alone, examine your mind, when among others, examine your speech'.— Atisha
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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Shantideva, Way of the Bodhisattva -- Stay away from "childish beings" or help them?
It means don't develop friendships with people whose interests and direction in life will lead you away from the Dharma, to my mind.
Doesn't mean don't help them when they need help and you're around to do so, it just means not to develop intimacy with people who can harm your path, and like anything else, it call comes down to one's capacities and circumstances.
Doesn't mean don't help them when they need help and you're around to do so, it just means not to develop intimacy with people who can harm your path, and like anything else, it call comes down to one's capacities and circumstances.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared
-Khunu Lama
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared
-Khunu Lama
Re: Shantideva, Way of the Bodhisattva -- Stay away from "childish beings" or help them?
It means avoid the company of fools.
prsvrnc wrote:I am reading chapter 8 of Shantideva's, "the Way of the Bodhisattva" on Meditative Concentration along with a commentary. Many of the verses in this chapter talk about how you should remain in solitude and list many reasons for why it is not worth one's time to remain in the presence of most beings. I realize this might be in context of developing meditative concentration, but the way it's written makes it sound like this is advice for any scenario.
Verses 15 and 16:
"Therefore flee the company of childish people.
Greet them, when you meet, with smiles
That keep on terms of common courtesy,
Without inviting intimate relations.
Like bees that get their honey from the flowers,
Take only what will serve the practice of the Dharma.
Treat everyone like new acquaintances
And keep yourself from close familiarity."
^^^ How do you all interpret this? I realize it doesn't have to be contradictory, but I'm curious how this squares with the bodhisattva commitment to help all beings. In my own mind, i have some friends that are difficult (for example), bUt I see my remaining friends with them as something that could be an aid to them in some way. How do you guys interpret this?
Re: Shantideva, Way of the Bodhisattva -- Stay away from "childish beings" or help them?
Exactly this.Johnny Dangerous wrote:It means don't develop friendships with people whose interests and direction in life will lead you away from the Dharma, to my mind.
Doesn't mean don't help them when they need help and you're around to do so, it just means not to develop intimacy with people who can harm your path, and like anything else, it call comes down to one's capacities and circumstances.
You can have contact with "fools" and try to help them, but it is good to be aware, they are not your best friends.
(And be prepared: some fools can really get angry or mean, whatever help you try to give them.
)Re: Shantideva, Way of the Bodhisattva -- Stay away from "childish beings" or help them?
These verses do not cancel chapter 3:7-22, which constitutes the basis of the bodhisattva vows. The topic of chapter 8 is concentration within the topic of the entire book which is bodhicitta. It’s about strengthening your own resources for the purpose of eventually becoming a perfect benefactor to all beings, especially the fools. This passage deals with association and asks, “who influences whom?” Here he’s saying, to whatever extent you are likely to be adversely affected by others and unlikely to positively affect them, keep your distance for now.
Where now is my mind engaged? - Shantideva
Re: Shantideva, Way of the Bodhisattva -- Stay away from "childish beings" or help them?
This is one of those interesting places where word-choice perhaps, could be a little different. There is much to learn from children, in fact they are great teachers -- their innocence, purity and wisdom ( a child's wisdom ), is often over-looked. Further - the abilities of children are different, but not less. Any child - can learn 6 languages simultaneously, without any extra strain or effort, simply and naturally. . just from hearing them. .
Thich Nhat Hanh has written lovely about children -- 'Children understand very well that in each woman, in each man, in each child, there is capacity of waking up, of understanding, and of loving.'
So this is all about wording -- and I will get to the other part of it in just a short while. . . -- but, so like, just look at what the Dalai Lama would have been like as a child -- So, a divine child, this is quite a blessing to the world -- a Buddha-child -- and as we know, all children are Buddhas. . . So, it is a very interesting thing. . . we can learn much about the spontaneous nature of Buddha-nature ( in the Vajrayana songs, spontaneity is often highly praised ),. .
Alright - enough about children for the moment.
To the meaning of the text -- yes, it is another one of the seeming contradictions! For he elsewhere says -- may I be the nurse, the doctor, and the medicine. . for living beings, as long as any exist in the world. . .
This is akin to other paradoxes, and sometimes. . . they are not resolved until they are resolved.
Western logic has only two options. . . the classic case -- while Buddhist logic has four -- 'it is,' 'it is not,' 'it both is and is not,' 'it neither is nor is not'
To speak of the time-space or so forth, . . . the Saha world. . .
There are a couple of things I have learned about this and understood more -- Especially ,
during the beginning of Dharma, this type of thing is very important -- Associations with others determine much of our lives. . .
As a young person, I learned this fairly early -- who we choose as our friends, this makes more difference than almost anything.
And -- association with friends of spiritual qualities - this is the way to learn most quickly.
'O Ananda, Spiritual friendship is the whole of the path.'
Yet all must be saved -- so wherein lies the middle ground? Again, the teaching is that we should learn Buddha-nature before teaching others. . .
Shantideva emphasizes very much time spent alone in forests. . . as well as -- self-confidence, and things such as this. . .
There is a saying in Japanese Buddhism which translates as, 'Go up on the mountain, but come back down,'
And while each flavor of Dharma is somewhat unique, many teachings such as this one - are found in most if not at all. I can trace it to Milarepa, but not Buddha, and I'm not here to speak for Jetsun Mila, so I will say this much at least.
Then -- once one has attained some of the realizations -- also, it matters too -- where should one's efforts be focused?
So this I will leave open -- just to share -- wherever it can do the most good. . . Socrates wrote -- The secret of change is focusing all one's energy -- not on fighting the old, but on creating the new.
And it's much similar. . . Here is one thing, though -- people who wish for more power, do not generally realize what it entails -- more responsibility.
Ok-- back to the point. . . an example. If I help out -- some people who are not going to give up their addictions -- I may bring some peace, some light, and some health or healing --
But if I help those who have generated much good karma. . . by many good efforts, by many years or lifetimes of practising, this is a little more in accord with Dharma.
So, there is not one single answer, as it depends a lot on where one is, and so forth.
It is useful to understand that decay is as natural as growth -- if there were no decay, ( in nature ), there would be no growth.
((( This is borrowed from Liezi, but certainly applies here. )))
It is along the lines of avoiding quarrel and so forth
(( The wise, do not quarrel, but discipline themselves instead ))
The Dhammapada
On a larger scale -- Does it aid Dharma? . . . So, there is a lot of balances, and so forth. . .
Again, it really depends on where one is -- so, knowing where one is is very important.
Of course, also, Shantideva gives wonderful advice for speech ( say the good qualities of others, discreetly, etc. . . . things like this ). . . . . also - it may seem over-looked by some. . but some small details are quite beautiful, too. .
( 72 I should desist from inconsiderately and
noisily
Moving around chairs and so forth,
As well as from violently opening doors:
I should always delight in humility.
73
The stork, the cat and the thief,
By moving silently and carefully,
Accomplish what they desire to do;
A Bodhisattva too should always behave in
this way. )
as a child I walked very silently, and later and still as an adult, and, seeing this, was very happy.
Namaste, much love and peace,
May all beings be happy, healthy and have Dharma supports.
Thich Nhat Hanh has written lovely about children -- 'Children understand very well that in each woman, in each man, in each child, there is capacity of waking up, of understanding, and of loving.'
So this is all about wording -- and I will get to the other part of it in just a short while. . . -- but, so like, just look at what the Dalai Lama would have been like as a child -- So, a divine child, this is quite a blessing to the world -- a Buddha-child -- and as we know, all children are Buddhas. . . So, it is a very interesting thing. . . we can learn much about the spontaneous nature of Buddha-nature ( in the Vajrayana songs, spontaneity is often highly praised ),. .
Alright - enough about children for the moment.
To the meaning of the text -- yes, it is another one of the seeming contradictions! For he elsewhere says -- may I be the nurse, the doctor, and the medicine. . for living beings, as long as any exist in the world. . .
This is akin to other paradoxes, and sometimes. . . they are not resolved until they are resolved.
Western logic has only two options. . . the classic case -- while Buddhist logic has four -- 'it is,' 'it is not,' 'it both is and is not,' 'it neither is nor is not'
To speak of the time-space or so forth, . . . the Saha world. . .
There are a couple of things I have learned about this and understood more -- Especially ,
during the beginning of Dharma, this type of thing is very important -- Associations with others determine much of our lives. . .
As a young person, I learned this fairly early -- who we choose as our friends, this makes more difference than almost anything.
And -- association with friends of spiritual qualities - this is the way to learn most quickly.
'O Ananda, Spiritual friendship is the whole of the path.'
Yet all must be saved -- so wherein lies the middle ground? Again, the teaching is that we should learn Buddha-nature before teaching others. . .
Shantideva emphasizes very much time spent alone in forests. . . as well as -- self-confidence, and things such as this. . .
There is a saying in Japanese Buddhism which translates as, 'Go up on the mountain, but come back down,'
And while each flavor of Dharma is somewhat unique, many teachings such as this one - are found in most if not at all. I can trace it to Milarepa, but not Buddha, and I'm not here to speak for Jetsun Mila, so I will say this much at least.
Then -- once one has attained some of the realizations -- also, it matters too -- where should one's efforts be focused?
So this I will leave open -- just to share -- wherever it can do the most good. . . Socrates wrote -- The secret of change is focusing all one's energy -- not on fighting the old, but on creating the new.
And it's much similar. . . Here is one thing, though -- people who wish for more power, do not generally realize what it entails -- more responsibility.
Ok-- back to the point. . . an example. If I help out -- some people who are not going to give up their addictions -- I may bring some peace, some light, and some health or healing --
But if I help those who have generated much good karma. . . by many good efforts, by many years or lifetimes of practising, this is a little more in accord with Dharma.
So, there is not one single answer, as it depends a lot on where one is, and so forth.
It is useful to understand that decay is as natural as growth -- if there were no decay, ( in nature ), there would be no growth.
((( This is borrowed from Liezi, but certainly applies here. )))
It is along the lines of avoiding quarrel and so forth
(( The wise, do not quarrel, but discipline themselves instead ))
The Dhammapada
On a larger scale -- Does it aid Dharma? . . . So, there is a lot of balances, and so forth. . .
Again, it really depends on where one is -- so, knowing where one is is very important.
Of course, also, Shantideva gives wonderful advice for speech ( say the good qualities of others, discreetly, etc. . . . things like this ). . . . . also - it may seem over-looked by some. . but some small details are quite beautiful, too. .
( 72 I should desist from inconsiderately and
noisily
Moving around chairs and so forth,
As well as from violently opening doors:
I should always delight in humility.
73
The stork, the cat and the thief,
By moving silently and carefully,
Accomplish what they desire to do;
A Bodhisattva too should always behave in
this way. )
as a child I walked very silently, and later and still as an adult, and, seeing this, was very happy.
Namaste, much love and peace,
May all beings be happy, healthy and have Dharma supports.
Om Gate Gate Paragate Parasamgate bodhi svaha
Re: Shantideva, Way of the Bodhisattva -- Stay away from "childish beings" or help them?
Devotion and Compassion, both are love inseparable."Therefore flee the company of childish people.
Greet them, when you meet, with smiles
That keep on terms of common courtesy,
Without inviting intimate relations.
Like bees that get their honey from the flowers,
Take only what will serve the practice of the Dharma.
Treat everyone like new acquaintances
And keep yourself from close familiarity."
Even Dharma is used in worldly way, as long as there is subject and object. Fabricated, indicated, explained, cultivated Dharma is great but not liberating, Dharma beyond these is. (practice)
Therefore bow for those beyond, they are light constantly pointing own light.
Tibetan saying: there are no enemies, only friends one has not met yet. While attachment is suffering.
“We are each living in our own soap opera. We do not see things as they really are. We see only our interpretations. This is because our minds are always so busy...But when the mind calms down, it becomes clear. This mental clarity enables us to see things as they really are, instead of projecting our commentary on everything.” Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bg9jOYnEUA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bg9jOYnEUA
Re: Shantideva, Way of the Bodhisattva -- Stay away from "childish beings" or help them?
-- their innocence, purity and wisdom
"Children are our teachers, listen carefully and they will teach you about the lost world of carefree being in the present moment."
lol.It means avoid the company of fools.
“We are each living in our own soap opera. We do not see things as they really are. We see only our interpretations. This is because our minds are always so busy...But when the mind calms down, it becomes clear. This mental clarity enables us to see things as they really are, instead of projecting our commentary on everything.” Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bg9jOYnEUA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bg9jOYnEUA
Re: Shantideva, Way of the Bodhisattva -- Stay away from "childish beings" or help them?
Now in terms of my sake this is hypothetical, but I have a hard time understanding still. How does this apply to a real actualized realized bodhisattva on the bodhisattva grounds? For example, HHDL. He said he depended on the 6th and 8th chapters of this text a great deal. To me, I read this as...... for such spiritually advanced practitioners, they are supposed to remain in private to a great degree, obtain the final result, and then later come out and interact more with beings. How would you answer this if it was intending to be guidance for an advanced bodhisattva who has the potential to help others?
Re: Shantideva, Way of the Bodhisattva -- Stay away from "childish beings" or help them?
HHDL is primarily a practitioner of tantra. Also, he is believed to be a very special being, he is not like us.prsvrnc wrote:Now in terms of my sake this is hypothetical, but I have a hard time understanding still. How does this apply to a real actualized realized bodhisattva on the bodhisattva grounds? For example, HHDL. He said he depended on the 6th and 8th chapters of this text a great deal. To me, I read this as...... for such spiritually advanced practitioners, they are supposed to remain in private to a great degree, obtain the final result, and then later come out and interact more with beings. How would you answer this if it was intending to be guidance for an advanced bodhisattva who has the potential to help others?
Kevin
Re: Shantideva, Way of the Bodhisattva -- Stay away from "childish beings" or help them?
Apart from ourselves being negatively influenced there is also the fact that even the great masters cant help everyone. They know best when people cant be helped, and when to keep a respectful distance, not for there own protection but because it is useless to indulge people too much. Which goes contrary to what was natural for me to think, that we get better and better so we can be beyond all limits and engage positively with any situation anytime, but other people will still have their limits and circumstances will always be in play. So knowing how to help people is of course also about knowing what does not work.prsvrnc wrote:Now in terms of my sake this is hypothetical, but I have a hard time understanding still. How does this apply to a real actualized realized bodhisattva on the bodhisattva grounds? For example, HHDL. He said he depended on the 6th and 8th chapters of this text a great deal. To me, I read this as...... for such spiritually advanced practitioners, they are supposed to remain in private to a great degree, obtain the final result, and then later come out and interact more with beings. How would you answer this if it was intending to be guidance for an advanced bodhisattva who has the potential to help others?
Re: Shantideva, Way of the Bodhisattva -- Stay away from "childish beings" or help them?
I see. Okay, I reread everyone's posts and they were very good so I am more or less contented.
Still, I read this chapter and feel sort of sick. This must be my attachment to samsaric existence. Sometimes it all feels rather pointless, why we go to such extremes to enjoy solitude, where no one will care that we die since we are already dead to them. It's really extreme, the stress on solitude, no one to bug us or interrupt our dharma practice.
Maybe I'm just not a good practitioner but I don't think I KNOW what dharma is aside from interacting with others. That's where I learn most things... I mean, I study dharma by myself but I know HOW I AM DOING relative to my relations with others and how they are going. I learn about afflictions through studying myself and others. I guess I am just very relationally centered.
The way I see the section of this text depicting solitude and the relation to people is..... we want to help them but we are so blinded by our own reactions to them, attachment, biases of all kinds... that we can't even get an adequate grip or perspective on what their real needs are. We can't really pass on dharma... maybe intellectually we can, but we can't guide them in the real meaning of that term. In fact, it can actually be reprehensible to be around them because their constant needs and chattering are like more pressure, more of the same of the problem we already have going on. We need to be separate from them so we can love them from a place of bodhicitta, which, in my mind... is sort of a realm all of its own. Of course, all the other worldly joys are included there, but... it requires great distance from ourselves and our thoughts to actualize or enter... Then we can come back and enjoy others.. when we can adequately help them.
My reactions to this text are dark so I am struggling with it. It's hard for me to glorify solitude so much when nothing else about life seems particularly appealing... I have a hard time reveling in dharma aside from where I see it being beneficial to those around me.
*rant over*
Writing this was therapeutic.. i could have edited it better and arranged my thoughts more clearly though.
Actually, final thought. this chapter is dedicated to sharing the antidote to desire and attachment... so I guess it's trying to emphasize the ills of thinking there is any worth to be found in this human folk stuff. Makes a bit more sense. So dreary.. could be Schopenhauer. hah
Still, I read this chapter and feel sort of sick. This must be my attachment to samsaric existence. Sometimes it all feels rather pointless, why we go to such extremes to enjoy solitude, where no one will care that we die since we are already dead to them. It's really extreme, the stress on solitude, no one to bug us or interrupt our dharma practice.
Maybe I'm just not a good practitioner but I don't think I KNOW what dharma is aside from interacting with others. That's where I learn most things... I mean, I study dharma by myself but I know HOW I AM DOING relative to my relations with others and how they are going. I learn about afflictions through studying myself and others. I guess I am just very relationally centered.
The way I see the section of this text depicting solitude and the relation to people is..... we want to help them but we are so blinded by our own reactions to them, attachment, biases of all kinds... that we can't even get an adequate grip or perspective on what their real needs are. We can't really pass on dharma... maybe intellectually we can, but we can't guide them in the real meaning of that term. In fact, it can actually be reprehensible to be around them because their constant needs and chattering are like more pressure, more of the same of the problem we already have going on. We need to be separate from them so we can love them from a place of bodhicitta, which, in my mind... is sort of a realm all of its own. Of course, all the other worldly joys are included there, but... it requires great distance from ourselves and our thoughts to actualize or enter... Then we can come back and enjoy others.. when we can adequately help them.
My reactions to this text are dark so I am struggling with it. It's hard for me to glorify solitude so much when nothing else about life seems particularly appealing... I have a hard time reveling in dharma aside from where I see it being beneficial to those around me.
*rant over*
Writing this was therapeutic.. i could have edited it better and arranged my thoughts more clearly though.
Actually, final thought. this chapter is dedicated to sharing the antidote to desire and attachment... so I guess it's trying to emphasize the ills of thinking there is any worth to be found in this human folk stuff. Makes a bit more sense. So dreary.. could be Schopenhauer. hah
Last edited by prsvrnc on Tue Jun 14, 2016 10:35 am, edited 3 times in total.
Re: Shantideva, Way of the Bodhisattva -- Stay away from "childish beings" or help them?
I must object to this.Virgo wrote: HHDL is primarily a practitioner of tantra. Also, he is believed to be a very special being, he is not like us.
Kevin
You are also a very special being.
"Even if my body should be burnt to death in the fires of hell
I would endure it for myriad lifetimes
As your companion in practice"
--- Gandavyuha Sutra
I would endure it for myriad lifetimes
As your companion in practice"
--- Gandavyuha Sutra
Re: Shantideva, Way of the Bodhisattva -- Stay away from "childish beings" or help them?
We do not need to sacrifice traversing our path to help others nor completely avoid interacting, unless on solitary retreat, based on Shantideva's advice to avoid the company of fools.prsvrnc wrote:I see. Okay, I reread everyone's posts and they were very good so I am more or less contented.
Still, I read this chapter and feel sort of sick. This must be my attachment to samsaric existence. Sometimes it all feels rather pointless, why we go to such extremes to enjoy solitude, where no one will care that we die since we are already dead to them. It's really extreme, the stress on solitude, no one to bug us or interrupt our dharma practice.
Maybe I'm just not a good practitioner but I don't think I KNOW what dharma is aside from interacting with others. That's where I learn most things... I mean, I study dharma by myself but I know HOW I AM DOING relative to my relations with others and how they are going. I learn about afflictions through studying myself and others. I guess I am just very relationally centered.
The way I see the section of this text depicting solitude and the relation to people is..... we want to help them but we are so blinded by our own reactions to them, attachment, biases of all kinds... that we can't even get an adequate grip or perspective on what their real needs are. We can't really pass on dharma... maybe intellectually we can, but we can't guide them in the real meaning of that term. In fact, it can actually be reprehensible to be around them because their constant needs and chattering are like more pressure, more of the same of the problem we already have going on. We need to be separate from them so we can love them from a place of bodhicitta, which, in my mind... is sort of a realm all of its own. Of course, all the other worldly joys are included there, but... it requires great distance from ourselves and our thoughts to actualize or enter... Then we can come back and enjoy others.. when we can adequately help them.
My reactions to this text are dark so I am struggling with it. It's hard for me to glorify solitude so much when nothing else about life seems particularly appealing... I have a hard time reveling in dharma aside from where I see it being beneficial to those around me.
*rant over*
Writing this was therapeutic.. i could have edited it better and arranged my thoughts more clearly though.
Actually, final thought. this chapter is dedicated to sharing the antidote to desire and attachment... so I guess it's trying to emphasize the ills of thinking there is any worth to be found in this human folk stuff. Makes a bit more sense. So dreary.. could be Schopenhauer. hah
What we can do is armor up, whether Vajra Armor mantra or simply utilizing seed syllables.
This way we neither attach to fools nor avoid fools based on our own ignorance.
I interact with fools daily working at hospital, then leave, go home and let them go where they go, and yes it is a struggle at times.
dave
Working with the raw elements (air earth fire water space)is a process of connecting with the external elements and internalizing their qualities.
Ultimately we can merge with the element. We connect the external quality with the internal quality and then dissolve the distinctions.
Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche
The essence of the elements is light
ChNN
Ultimately we can merge with the element. We connect the external quality with the internal quality and then dissolve the distinctions.
Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche
The essence of the elements is light
ChNN
-
AlexMcLeod
- Posts: 368
- Joined: Sun Mar 20, 2016 2:54 am
Re: Shantideva, Way of the Bodhisattva -- Stay away from "childish beings" or help them?
There is nothing particularly controversial about this advice. Even non-Buddhist people follow it. In some circles, it is said that you can see your future by looking at the 5 people you spend the most time with. One of the secrets of success is making sure that the people influencing you have qualities that you desire or value.
Relax! Smile From The Heart!
There is a difference between the Mundane and the Transcendental. If you purposefully confuse them, I will ignore you, you nihilist.
There is no Emotion, there is Peace. There is no Ignorance, there is Knowledge. There is no Passion, there is Serenity. There is no Death, there is the Force.
There is a difference between the Mundane and the Transcendental. If you purposefully confuse them, I will ignore you, you nihilist.
There is no Emotion, there is Peace. There is no Ignorance, there is Knowledge. There is no Passion, there is Serenity. There is no Death, there is the Force.
Re: Shantideva, Way of the Bodhisattva -- Stay away from "childish beings" or help them?
It might help for you to understand The Way of the Bodhisattva more broadly instead of obsessing on one point that you may not yet be ready for. It is a holistic and graduated guidance which must constantly be read backwards and forwards. That is why HHDL says your copy of that book should become extremely well worn. That is also why Anders objection is exactly right: the point of Buddhism is not that some beings are more special than others; the point is that every being can realize the path to perfection over time with the right guidance and practice.prsvrnc wrote:I see. Okay, I reread everyone's posts and they were very good so I am more or less contented.
Still, I read this chapter and feel sort of sick. This must be my attachment to samsaric existence. Sometimes it all feels rather pointless, why we go to such extremes to enjoy solitude, where no one will care that we die since we are already dead to them. It's really extreme, the stress on solitude, no one to bug us or interrupt our dharma practice.
Maybe I'm just not a good practitioner but I don't think I KNOW what dharma is aside from interacting with others. That's where I learn most things... I mean, I study dharma by myself but I know HOW I AM DOING relative to my relations with others and how they are going. I learn about afflictions through studying myself and others. I guess I am just very relationally centered.
The way I see the section of this text depicting solitude and the relation to people is..... we want to help them but we are so blinded by our own reactions to them, attachment, biases of all kinds... that we can't even get an adequate grip or perspective on what their real needs are. We can't really pass on dharma... maybe intellectually we can, but we can't guide them in the real meaning of that term. In fact, it can actually be reprehensible to be around them because their constant needs and chattering are like more pressure, more of the same of the problem we already have going on. We need to be separate from them so we can love them from a place of bodhicitta, which, in my mind... is sort of a realm all of its own. Of course, all the other worldly joys are included there, but... it requires great distance from ourselves and our thoughts to actualize or enter... Then we can come back and enjoy others.. when we can adequately help them.
My reactions to this text are dark so I am struggling with it. It's hard for me to glorify solitude so much when nothing else about life seems particularly appealing... I have a hard time reveling in dharma aside from where I see it being beneficial to those around me.
*rant over*
Writing this was therapeutic.. i could have edited it better and arranged my thoughts more clearly though.
Actually, final thought. this chapter is dedicated to sharing the antidote to desire and attachment... so I guess it's trying to emphasize the ills of thinking there is any worth to be found in this human folk stuff. Makes a bit more sense. So dreary.. could be Schopenhauer. hah
Chapter 8 has two major parts: first train in deepest concentration; then exchange your personal sense of self for others. In 8:25-29 even Shantideva, who was highly realized, pines for a time when he will be mentally ready for the degree of solitude he has described. That kind of solitude is a pinnacle of renunciation. All of chapters 8 and 9 are extremely advanced teachings. We beginners need them in order to give our practice direction and begin the process of cultivating shamatha and vipassana, but don't expect to be there just because you've reached that point in this book.
Also, when HHDL cites chapters 6 and 8 especially, he's talking about the patience to deal with the most difficult beings and the ability to exchange self and others. Those skills require a very high degree of mental discipline which the beginning of chapter 8 (its "preface" you might say) tells us is attained through a process of withdrawing within for a time.
Where now is my mind engaged? - Shantideva
Re: Shantideva, Way of the Bodhisattva -- Stay away from "childish beings" or help them?
Good points. All points taken. I will refrain from absurdly blurting out in the future when I know I could do better. For sure.
Re: Shantideva, Way of the Bodhisattva -- Stay away from "childish beings" or help them?
How do you feel about accepting help from someone who considers you a fool?Ayu wrote:Exactly this.Johnny Dangerous wrote:It means don't develop friendships with people whose interests and direction in life will lead you away from the Dharma, to my mind.
Doesn't mean don't help them when they need help and you're around to do so, it just means not to develop intimacy with people who can harm your path, and like anything else, it call comes down to one's capacities and circumstances.
You can have contact with "fools" and try to help them, but it is good to be aware, they are not your best friends.
(And be prepared: some fools can really get angry or mean, whatever help you try to give them.
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Fortyeightvows
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Re: Shantideva, Way of the Bodhisattva -- Stay away from "childish beings" or help them?
this is a good pointboda wrote: How do you feel about accepting help from someone who considers you a fool?