Remembering the vows forever?

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Bristollad
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Joined: Fri Aug 21, 2015 11:39 am

Re: Remembering the vows forever?

Post by Bristollad »

You are still not acknowleding the fact that in the Vinaya, the vows are said to last for this life. During the ordination ceremony this is made clear. Just as the One day vows last one day because you set the limit when you make them, in a similar way, during ordination you vow to follow the training rules of the vinaya for this life.
It is splitting hairs if you say that only the refuge vow continues and the precepts do not. It seems illogical also.
I agree it would be...but that's not what I said. I said taking refuge and vowing to keep one or more of the 5 lay training rules are not identical things. If such was not the case, then it would be impossible for people choose to take one, some or none of the lay vows.
A misunderstanding has crept in some where.
I agree. You seem to be conflating morality and the training rules of the vinaya, the pratimoksha. The training rules came gradually into existence as circumstances warranted them. Once a member of the Sangha behaved in a way that was deemed unwise, the Buddha made a training rule so that from then on, the Sangha would know that that action or deed was inappropriate. When a person becomes a monastic, they vow to abide by and follow these training rules for this life. The vows are there to help develop and shape morality in the monastic (and hence provide the bedrock for the development of concentration, wisdom, loving kindness etc.), they are not morality.
Ethical vows are similar to any other habits that you form during your present life (and in past and future lives). Habits get gradually stored in the alaya-consciousness, and they will appear again in the future life or future lives. Habitual tendencies are not lost at death. This applies to the vows also.
No, I disagree. Ethical vows are not similar to any other habits that you form. The habitual tendencies shaped by those training rules that you have vowed to follow for this life continue, not the vows.

You seem to be absurdly suggesting, that if a monastic gives back their vows, they would lose all of their morality because morality and the training vows are the same thing.
The antidote—to be free from the suffering of samsara—you need to be free from delusion and karma; you need to be free from ignorance, the root of samsara. So you need to meditate on emptiness. That is what you need. Lama Zopa Rinpoche
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Aemilius
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Re: Remembering the vows forever?

Post by Aemilius »

It is one's intention or attitude to the vows that is decisive. If, for example you take a vow not to smoke for five years, and then you start smoking immediately when the five year period has elapsed, in my opinion that is contradictory to the whole purpose of the ethical vows. But unfortunately that is exactly how it seems to be in some circles of the present day Dharma.

I think this kind of attitude to vows is hair splitting legalism, it is against the purpose of vows and the purpose of ethics in general. Ethics form a basis for the practice of meditation and wisdom. If you want to practice the Dharma, ethics are naturally included. You can't "take refuge " and then think that ethics are not included in that!

There is a famous case of a Bhikshu, --I forget his name now, but the story is told by Vasubandhu*, and others. This Bhikshu didn't want to take the 250 vows of Bhikshu, because he felt the task was too formidable. So the Buddha asked, "Could you promise to follow the Three Trainings of ethics, meditation and wisdom?" This Bhikshu said he could do that. Buddha Gautama then said that all of the 250 vows and precepts are included in the Three Trainings. And so he became a fully ordained Bhikshu.

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* Actually Vasubandhu only refers to the case of this Bhikshu, the story must have been very familiar during his time. The translator Stephen Anacker tells the full story in the footnotes of Seven Works of Vasubandhu.
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
pael
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Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2013 12:49 pm

Re: Remembering the vows forever?

Post by pael »

Aemilius wrote:I think this kind of attitude to vows is hair splitting legalism, it is against the purpose of vows and the purpose of ethics in general. Ethics form a basis for the practice of meditation and wisdom. If you want to practice the Dharma, ethics are naturally included. You can't "take refuge " and then think that ethics are not included in that!
Does this mean taking refuge contain five precepts? Refuge vow for not to harm other sentient beings sounds same as vow to not kill.
May all beings be free from suffering and causes of suffering
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