Surangama Sutra as an anti-Dzogchen intervention

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Malcolm
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Re: Surangama Sutra as an anti-Dzogchen intervention

Post by Malcolm »

Minobu wrote: there are no bad teachings being bandied about here...
Apart from gyalpo practice, I quite agree.
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Minobu
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Re: Surangama Sutra as an anti-Dzogchen intervention

Post by Minobu »

Malcolm wrote:
Minobu wrote: there are no bad teachings being bandied about here...
Apart from gyalpo practice, I quite agree.
well i know nothing of this practice , but keeping in spirit of my post;
Can we look at this Mahayana practice as a Poison Drum?
Malcolm
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Re: Surangama Sutra as an anti-Dzogchen intervention

Post by Malcolm »

Minobu wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Minobu wrote: there are no bad teachings being bandied about here...
Apart from gyalpo practice, I quite agree.
well i know nothing of this practice , but keeping in spirit of my post;
Can we look at this Mahayana practice as a Poison Drum?
It is an incorrect practice condemned rather harshly by HH Dalai Lama.
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Minobu
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Re: Surangama Sutra as an anti-Dzogchen intervention

Post by Minobu »

Malcolm wrote:
Minobu wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Apart from gyalpo practice, I quite agree.
well i know nothing of this practice , but keeping in spirit of my post;
Can we look at this Mahayana practice as a Poison Drum?
It is an incorrect practice condemned rather harshly by HH Dalai Lama.
That being said, Even Devadatta who tried to kill The Buddha was promised Buddhahood in the Lotus Sutra in the future as direct cause from this negative relationship with The Buddha.
this is the meaning of the Poison Drum .

so ya i get you claim this to be a bad practice but still it has a relationship with Buddha so eventually all will attain Buddhahood.
Also i'm still trying to lay cliam to the original spirit of my original post
Malcolm
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Re: Surangama Sutra as an anti-Dzogchen intervention

Post by Malcolm »

Minobu wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Minobu wrote: well i know nothing of this practice , but keeping in spirit of my post;
Can we look at this Mahayana practice as a Poison Drum?
It is an incorrect practice condemned rather harshly by HH Dalai Lama.
That being said, Even Devadatta who tried to kill The Buddha was promised Buddhahood in the Lotus Sutra in the future as direct cause from this negative relationship with The Buddha.
this is the meaning of the Poison Drum .

so ya i get you claim this to be a bad practice but still it has a relationship with Buddha so eventually all will attain Buddhahood.
Also i'm still trying to lay cliam to the original spirit of my original post

I don't think you really understand the gravity of the situation.
jmlee369
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Re: Surangama Sutra as an anti-Dzogchen intervention

Post by jmlee369 »

Tsongkhapafan wrote:
jmlee369 wrote:
Tsongkhapafan wrote:There is also a history of false teachings being touted as higher too, so one must be careful and investigate thoroughly as Buddha said.
Surely Lama Tsongkhapa did not waste his time practising a "false teaching." And prophecies from sutras are tricky things, if you really examine them. There are many practices Lama Tsongkhapa undertook which are somewhat neglected in contemporary Gelug circles in the West, such as Mahachakra Vajrapani, the Luipa lineages of Chakrasamvara, Guhyasamaja (situation improving somewhat), Sarasvati, extensive study of the Avatamsaka Sutra, etc etc.

As for "no enlightenment without HYT", you really should be more specific and at least say "no Buddhahood without HYT" because there are plenty of realisations that are achievable without tantra (arhat, pratyekabuddhahood, bodhisattva bhumis, etc). Even with that claim, if my memory serves me right, Lama Tsongkhapa mentioned in Ngagrim Chenmo that those practising lower tantra could attain Buddhahood in their current human body if they lengthened their lifespan, whereas the special feature of HYT was to bring about Buddhahood in a single short lifespan in this degenrate age. However, I also recall Khedrup Je being quite adamant about all Buddhas going through HYT at some point to reach that stage. Whether the basis of such statements were meant to be taken literally remains to be seen (given how the tantras can be notoriously difficult to interpret)
The main cause of a Buddha's enjoyment body is the illusory body and the main cause of a Buddha's truth body is meaning clear light. It is not possible to attain these without meditation on completion stage and they are completion stage realisations. It is not possible to attain completion stage realisations by practising any of the lower tantras.

You're perfectly right to say that I should say that Buddhahood is not possible without practising HYT as there is the enlightenment of a hearer and the enlightenment of a solitary realizer, however, strictly speaking, it's not possible to attain even liberation or nirvana without practising completion stage because it is impossible to remove all delusions from the mind without meditating on emptiness with the clear light mind. Actual liberation is only attained with the realisation of meaning clear light which is obviously not possible in the hearer's vehicle and the solitary realiser's vehicle. It isn't even possible in the sutra bodhisattva's path so the practise of HYT is indispensable to the attainment of the great enlightenment of a Buddha but even to attain liberation from samsara it is necessary.
The notion that completion stage practice is necessary for becoming an arhat or pratyekabuddha is news to me, do you have any sources for that? Arhats and pratyekabuddhas do not need to develop a rupakaya, so the illusory body is not necessary for them. As for clear light, since they only need to remove the coarse afflictions, but not the imprints that are obstructions to omniscience, they do not need to practice on such a subtle level.

I will get back to you regarding the lower tantras once I can get my hands on a copy of the Ngagrim Chenmo.
jmlee369
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Re: Surangama Sutra as an anti-Dzogchen intervention

Post by jmlee369 »

Malcolm wrote:
Tsongkhapafan wrote:
Malcolm wrote: My reply to you is the same as Nāgārjuna's reply to those who bore doubt about Mahāyāna in the Ratnavali. Higher vehicles always seems questionable to those who follower lower vehicles.
There is also a history of false teachings being touted as higher too, so one must be careful and investigate thoroughly as Buddha said.
There is nothing false about the teachings brought to Tibet by Ācārya Padmasambhava, Paṇḍita Vimalamitra and Lotsawa Vairocana. Even Tsongkhapa accepted Dzogchen teachings as valid. I advise you to read the ཞུ་ལན་སྨན་མཆོག་བདུད་རྩིའི་ཕྲེང་བ by Tsongkhapa where he records a dialogue between himself and his Nyingma Guru Laykyi Dorje who acted as a intermediary between Tsongkhapa and Vajrapani. It is in Tsongkhapa's collected works.
Also, just so everyone knows, the text Malcolm is referencing, ཞུ་ལན་སྨན་མཆོག་བདུད་རྩིའི་ཕྲེང་བ (zhu lan sman mchog bdud rtsi'i phreng ba) has been translated and published in English as 'A Rosary of Supreme Medicinal Nectar' in the book Life and Teachings of Tsong Khapa from the Library of Tibetan Works and Archives.
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Tsongkhapafan
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Re: Surangama Sutra as an anti-Dzogchen intervention

Post by Tsongkhapafan »

jmlee369 wrote:
The notion that completion stage practice is necessary for becoming an arhat or pratyekabuddha is news to me, do you have any sources for that? Arhats and pratyekabuddhas do not need to develop a rupakaya, so the illusory body is not necessary for them. As for clear light, since they only need to remove the coarse afflictions, but not the imprints that are obstructions to omniscience, they do not need to practice on such a subtle level.

I will get back to you regarding the lower tantras once I can get my hands on a copy of the Ngagrim Chenmo.
The small and middling enlightenments that are described in Buddha's sutra teachings are not actual states of liberation, this is more the point I was making. Buddha gave provisional teachings on many different levels. The main point I was wanting to make is that only the attainment of meaning clear light is actual liberation, so the arhats of Hinayana vehicles and the arhats of even sutra Mahayana are not actual arhats because they have not completely removed all delusions from their minds. This is only possible with a direct realisation of emptiness with the very subtle mind. Meditation on emptiness with the mind of clear light is needed to remove even delusion obstructions completely, not only the imprints that are the obstructions to omniscience. Therefore, realising emptiness with a gross mind does make one an actual Superior Being as it is not an actual direct realisation of emptiness.

As we know, Buddha gave teachings according to the inclinations and capacities of his disciples and he presented provisional systems of views such as the Vaibhashika, Sautrantika, etc as definitive although they were not his final intention. Similarly, Buddha's Tantric teachings are his real intention; they are not just a quick path to Buddhahood but indispensable even for true liberation.
Malcolm
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Re: Surangama Sutra as an anti-Dzogchen intervention

Post by Malcolm »

Tsongkhapafan wrote:
The small and middling enlightenments that are described in Buddha's sutra teachings are not actual states of liberation...
Of course they are. What they are not are stages of omniscience.

Arhats and pratyekabuddhas do not possess afflictive obscurations at all.
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Tsongkhapafan
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Re: Surangama Sutra as an anti-Dzogchen intervention

Post by Tsongkhapafan »

Malcolm wrote:
Tsongkhapafan wrote:
The small and middling enlightenments that are described in Buddha's sutra teachings are not actual states of liberation...
Of course they are. What they are not are stages of omniscience.

Arhats and pratyekabuddhas do not possess afflictive obscurations at all.
From a provisional point of view and from the point of view of their own vehicles, yes, but from the point of view of Buddha’s Tantric teachings and in actuality, no.
Malcolm
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Re: Surangama Sutra as an anti-Dzogchen intervention

Post by Malcolm »

Tsongkhapafan wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Tsongkhapafan wrote:
The small and middling enlightenments that are described in Buddha's sutra teachings are not actual states of liberation...
Of course they are. What they are not are stages of omniscience.

Arhats and pratyekabuddhas do not possess afflictive obscurations at all.
From a provisional point of view and from the point of view of their own vehicles, yes, but from the point of view of Buddha’s Tantric teachings and in actuality, no.
Proof text please. And you are quite incorrect. The consequence of your erroneous statement is that arhats and pratyekabuddhas will take afflictive rebirth in samsara.
DGA
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Re: Surangama Sutra as an anti-Dzogchen intervention

Post by DGA »

Minobu wrote:

the very title of this thread is loathe some in this degenerative age.

Nah. Different Buddhists and Buddhist schools have been debating each other's faces off for millennia. We'll be fine.

Which reminds me: how do you feel about Nichiren's use of polemic and hyperbole in his public discourses?
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Minobu
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Re: Surangama Sutra as an anti-Dzogchen intervention

Post by Minobu »

Malcolm wrote:
Minobu wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
It is an incorrect practice condemned rather harshly by HH Dalai Lama.
That being said, Even Devadatta who tried to kill The Buddha was promised Buddhahood in the Lotus Sutra in the future as direct cause from this negative relationship with The Buddha.
this is the meaning of the Poison Drum .

so ya i get you claim this to be a bad practice but still it has a relationship with Buddha so eventually all will attain Buddhahood.
Also i'm still trying to lay cliam to the original spirit of my original post

I don't think you really understand the gravity of the situation.
Thats possable...I tend to live in denial of many things.


but if the guy who plotted to kill the Buddha , and in by doing so gets a promise of Buddhahood.

It just shows you the power of the salvation techniques of the Buddha.

but then again i might sound like everything is cool and am ignoring what ever you know on this subject.
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Minobu
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Re: Surangama Sutra as an anti-Dzogchen intervention

Post by Minobu »

DGA wrote:
Minobu wrote:

the very title of this thread is loathe some in this degenerative age.

Nah. Different Buddhists and Buddhist schools have been debating each other's faces off for millennia. We'll be fine.

Which reminds me: how do you feel about Nichiren's use of polemic and hyperbole in his public discourses?
I tend to see Nichiren Shonin as a guy who saw the corruption in the government and Buddhist schools.
Basically there was nothing for the peasant class. I think the words you are using to describe Him are well off the mark.

He was the real deal. He wanted everyone to have the chance of liberation not just the higher classes.

And you need to know that this Guy travelled all over the Japan Scouring Buddhist Schools.
As a debater He was par excellence .

But now times are different . the world we live in is a totally different place. You can't compare His life to what goes on in this site.

Peasants don't get their heads chopped off "Just to see the sword's edge is ok" and yet i've seem some pretty ugly goings on in here. For what????
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yan kong
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Re: Surangama Sutra as an anti-Dzogchen intervention

Post by yan kong »

Minobu wrote:
DGA wrote:
Minobu wrote:

the very title of this thread is loathe some in this degenerative age.

Nah. Different Buddhists and Buddhist schools have been debating each other's faces off for millennia. We'll be fine.

Which reminds me: how do you feel about Nichiren's use of polemic and hyperbole in his public discourses?
I tend to see Nichiren Shonin as a guy who saw the corruption in the government and Buddhist schools.
Basically there was nothing for the peasant class. I think the words you are using to describe Him are well off the mark.

He was the real deal. He wanted everyone to have the chance of liberation not just the higher classes.

And you need to know that this Guy travelled all over the Japan Scouring Buddhist Schools.
As a debater He was par excellence .

But now times are different . the world we live in is a totally different place. You can't compare His life to what goes on in this site.

Peasants don't get their heads chopped off "Just to see the sword's edge is ok" and yet i've seem some pretty ugly goings on in here. For what????
Honen predates Nichiren who also hoped to bring Buddhism to those outcast by Japanese society.
"Meditation is a spiritual exercise, not a therapeutic regime... Our intention is to enter Nirvana, not to make life in Samsara more tolerable." Chan Master Hsu Yun
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Tsongkhapafan
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Re: Surangama Sutra as an anti-Dzogchen intervention

Post by Tsongkhapafan »

Malcolm wrote:
Tsongkhapafan wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Of course they are. What they are not are stages of omniscience.

Arhats and pratyekabuddhas do not possess afflictive obscurations at all.
From a provisional point of view and from the point of view of their own vehicles, yes, but from the point of view of Buddha’s Tantric teachings and in actuality, no.
Proof text please. And you are quite incorrect. The consequence of your erroneous statement is that arhats and pratyekabuddhas will take afflictive rebirth in samsara.
That's not the consequence at all. There are a couple of instances where one would still have the seeds of delusion but not be in samsara.

The first example is Hinayana Foe Destroyers as I have said. These Superiors take rebirth in the fourth form realm which has eight levels. The last five are Hinayana Pure Lands called Not Great, Without Pain, Excellent Appearance, Great Seeing, and None Higher. When Hinayana Foe Destroyers die they often choose to be born in one of these Lands, where they can remain at peace for as long as they wish. These Pure Lands are beyond samsara, but they are not Buddha Lands, but even though practically they are beyond samsara they would still have self-grasping at subtle and very subtle levels of mind.

Another example would be where someone takes rebirth in a Buddha's Pure Land either through their own power or through the powa prayers done by others. They would have the seeds of delusion in their minds so they would not have attained liberation strictly speaking, but they would be liberated from a practical point of view because they would be in a world where there are no true sufferings and no possibility of falling into samsara again.

In both of these cases, the beings still have work to do to attain actual liberation, and of course Buddhahood.
Malcolm
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Re: Surangama Sutra as an anti-Dzogchen intervention

Post by Malcolm »

Tsongkhapafan wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Tsongkhapafan wrote:
From a provisional point of view and from the point of view of their own vehicles, yes, but from the point of view of Buddha’s Tantric teachings and in actuality, no.
Proof text please. And you are quite incorrect. The consequence of your erroneous statement is that arhats and pratyekabuddhas will take afflictive rebirth in samsara.
That's not the consequence at all. There are a couple of instances where one would still have the seeds of delusion but not be in samsara.
There is a distinction between the nonafflictive ignorance which is part of the knowledge obscuration, and the ignorance that is part of the afflictive obscuration. Arhats and Pratyekabuddhas possess the former and not the latter; therefore they are not omniscient but they are liberated.

The first example is Hinayana Foe Destroyers as I have said. These Superiors take rebirth in the fourth form realm which has eight levels. The last five are Hinayana Pure Lands called Not Great, Without Pain, Excellent Appearance, Great Seeing, and None Higher. When Hinayana Foe Destroyers die they often choose to be born in one of these Lands, where they can remain at peace for as long as they wish. These Pure Lands are beyond samsara, but they are not Buddha Lands, but even though practically they are beyond samsara they would still have self-grasping at subtle and very subtle levels of mind.
You are conflating the afflictive obscuration (kleśa -avarana) with the knowledge obscuration (jñeya-avarana). The five pure abodes are where a certain kind of never returner takes rebirth. But once they attain arhatship there, they cease taking rebirth in any of the three realms, including the five pure abodes.
Another example would be where someone takes rebirth in a Buddha's Pure Land either through their own power or through the powa prayers done by others. They would have the seeds of delusion in their minds so they would not have attained liberation strictly speaking, but they would be liberated from a practical point of view because they would be in a world where there are no true sufferings and no possibility of falling into samsara again.

In both of these cases, the beings still have work to do to attain actual liberation, and of course Buddhahood.
Liberation, strictly speaking is the eradication of the causes of taking further rebirth in any of the three realms.
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Tsongkhapafan
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Re: Surangama Sutra as an anti-Dzogchen intervention

Post by Tsongkhapafan »

Malcolm wrote:
There is a distinction between the nonafflictive ignorance which is part of the knowledge obscuration, and the ignorance that is part of the afflictive obscuration. Arhats and Pratyekabuddhas possess the former and not the latter; therefore they are not omniscient but they are liberated.
I'm not talking about the obstructions to omniscience - according to Tantra, a direct realisation of emptiness with a gross mind is not an actual direct realisation and so these Hearers and Solitary Realizers are not actual Superior beings and they still have delusions at subtle and very subtle levels of mind and thus, strictly speaking, they are not liberated. Practically speaking though they have reduced their ignorance to the extent that it can never ripen throwing karma - thus they are not reborn in samsara.
You are conflating the afflictive obscuration (kleśa -avarana) with the knowledge obscuration (jñeya-avarana). The five pure abodes are where a certain kind of never returner takes rebirth. But once they attain arhatship there, they cease taking rebirth in any of the three realms, including the five pure abodes.
Hinayana Foe Destroyers also take rebirth in the five pure abodes.
Liberation, strictly speaking is the eradication of the causes of taking further rebirth in any of the three realms.
Actual liberation is the permanent eradication of the seeds of delusion. Because Hinayana Foe Destroyers have not removed delusions from all levels of mind they are not actually liberated but practically they do not take rebirth in samsara.
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Re: Surangama Sutra as an anti-Dzogchen intervention

Post by jet.urgyen »

Tsongkhapafan wrote:
The small and middling enlightenments that are described in Buddha's sutra teachings are not actual states of liberation, this is more the point I was making. Buddha gave provisional teachings on many different levels. The main point I was wanting to make is that only the attainment of meaning clear light is actual liberation, so the arhats of Hinayana vehicles and the arhats of even sutra Mahayana are not actual arhats because they have not completely removed all delusions from their minds. This is only possible with a direct realisation of emptiness with the very subtle mind. Meditation on emptiness with the mind of clear light is needed to remove even delusion obstructions completely, not only the imprints that are the obstructions to omniscience. Therefore, realising emptiness with a gross mind does make one an actual Superior Being as it is not an actual direct realisation of emptiness.

As we know, Buddha gave teachings according to the inclinations and capacities of his disciples and he presented provisional systems of views such as the Vaibhashika, Sautrantika, etc as definitive although they were not his final intention. Similarly, Buddha's Tantric teachings are his real intention; they are not just a quick path to Buddhahood but indispensable even for true liberation.
Just for precaution i must say that sutra teachings are profound in direct proportion to our comprehension of their meaning and implications. In this path, emptiness is an explicit point, and clarity is an implicit point -just like when we need help to take our very first steps and then we walk by our own-.

meditation on clear light -practice on the state of natural light, it we are talking of the same- has the same two points, not only emptiness but also clarity -both explicit in atiyoga-.

they are different approaches, according to the audience, but there is no buddhadharma more important or better than other. Each one is just like a ring that fits perfect or not in someone's fingers.
Malcolm
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Re: Surangama Sutra as an anti-Dzogchen intervention

Post by Malcolm »

Tsongkhapafan wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
There is a distinction between the nonafflictive ignorance which is part of the knowledge obscuration, and the ignorance that is part of the afflictive obscuration. Arhats and Pratyekabuddhas possess the former and not the latter; therefore they are not omniscient but they are liberated.
I'm not talking about the obstructions to omniscience - according to Tantra, a direct realisation of emptiness with a gross mind is not an actual direct realisation and so these Hearers and Solitary Realizers are not actual Superior beings and they still have delusions at subtle and very subtle levels of mind and thus, strictly speaking, they are not liberated. Practically speaking though they have reduced their ignorance to the extent that it can never ripen throwing karma - thus they are not reborn in samsara.
Again, you are not properly distinguishing afflictive and knowledge obscurations.
Hinayana Foe Destroyers also take rebirth in the five pure abodes.
No, they don't. Nonreturners do and attain arhatship there.
Liberation, strictly speaking is the eradication of the causes of taking further rebirth in any of the three realms.
Actual liberation is the permanent eradication of the seeds of delusion. Because Hinayana Foe Destroyers have not removed delusions from all levels of mind they are not actually liberated but practically they do not take rebirth in samsara.
No, liberation is just freedom from afflictions that cause birth in the three realms. Arhats, etc., do not possess those.

You still have no cited anything. Your assertions, unless grounded in some sūtra or tantra are meaningless.
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