Surangama Sutra as an anti-Dzogchen intervention

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Astus
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Re: Surangama Sutra as an anti-Dzogchen intervention

Postby Astus » Tue Jan 10, 2017 4:12 pm

Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.



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Malcolm
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Re: Surangama Sutra as an anti-Dzogchen intervention

Postby Malcolm » Tue Jan 10, 2017 4:19 pm





འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


Free of hope and fear, relax.
Human life spent in
a state of great spaciousness is enjoyable.


— Kunzang Dechen Lingpa

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Queequeg
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Re: Surangama Sutra as an anti-Dzogchen intervention

Postby Queequeg » Tue Jan 10, 2017 5:01 pm

“Once you have given up the ghost, everything follows with dead certainty, even in the midst of chaos.”
-Henry Miller

"Language is the liquid that we're all dissolved in.
Great for solving problems, after it creates a problem."
-Modest Mouse

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Astus
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Re: Surangama Sutra as an anti-Dzogchen intervention

Postby Astus » Tue Jan 10, 2017 6:22 pm

Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.



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Queequeg
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Re: Surangama Sutra as an anti-Dzogchen intervention

Postby Queequeg » Tue Jan 10, 2017 6:40 pm

Astus,

You're talking about modern scholarly methods, not perspective. I think the perspective is scientific. The methods can be divorced from the perspective with some difficulties, though I think they can only ever be tentative within a religious context.

I'm not sure if lineage accounts are wholly irrelevant in the scholarly approach. To categorically say that legends are worthless goes too far - I think we often find that legends may be accounts of actual historical events. Ashoka was thought to be a legend, for instance, until they found his pillars.

I'm nit picking here and don't disagree with your general point.

As for a new lineage... can the teacher walk on water? Yes? I'll give ear to that.
“Once you have given up the ghost, everything follows with dead certainty, even in the midst of chaos.”
-Henry Miller

"Language is the liquid that we're all dissolved in.
Great for solving problems, after it creates a problem."
-Modest Mouse

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Malcolm
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Re: Surangama Sutra as an anti-Dzogchen intervention

Postby Malcolm » Tue Jan 10, 2017 7:03 pm





འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


Free of hope and fear, relax.
Human life spent in
a state of great spaciousness is enjoyable.


— Kunzang Dechen Lingpa

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Mkoll
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Re: Surangama Sutra as an anti-Dzogchen intervention

Postby Mkoll » Tue Jan 10, 2017 8:43 pm

Given the other possible groups that could have been doing the practice described in the sutra, it seems premature to say it is anti-Dzogchen. I think you need to bring forth a lot more evidence from the sutra that you think exhibits anti-Dzogchen sentiment before you can reasonably suggest that conclusion.
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa

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Coëmgenu
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Re: Surangama Sutra as an anti-Dzogchen intervention

Postby Coëmgenu » Wed Jan 11, 2017 1:31 am


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Malcolm
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Re: Surangama Sutra as an anti-Dzogchen intervention

Postby Malcolm » Wed Jan 11, 2017 3:20 am





འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


Free of hope and fear, relax.
Human life spent in
a state of great spaciousness is enjoyable.


— Kunzang Dechen Lingpa

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Aemilius
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Re: Surangama Sutra as an anti-Dzogchen intervention

Postby Aemilius » Wed Jan 11, 2017 9:46 am

Last edited by Aemilius on Wed Jan 11, 2017 10:04 am, edited 4 times in total.
svaha

Sādhaka
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Re: Surangama Sutra as an anti-Dzogchen intervention

Postby Sādhaka » Wed Jan 11, 2017 9:52 am

Shurangama Sutra is not in the Tibetan canon.

Surangama Samadhi Sutra however is.

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Tsongkhapafan
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Re: Surangama Sutra as an anti-Dzogchen intervention

Postby Tsongkhapafan » Wed Jan 11, 2017 9:58 am


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Astus
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Re: Surangama Sutra as an anti-Dzogchen intervention

Postby Astus » Wed Jan 11, 2017 12:27 pm

Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.



User avatar
Tsongkhapafan
Posts: 1097
Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2011 9:36 am

Re: Surangama Sutra as an anti-Dzogchen intervention

Postby Tsongkhapafan » Wed Jan 11, 2017 12:59 pm


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Lobsang Chojor
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Re: Surangama Sutra as an anti-Dzogchen intervention

Postby Lobsang Chojor » Wed Jan 11, 2017 1:24 pm


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Astus
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Location: Budapest

Re: Surangama Sutra as an anti-Dzogchen intervention

Postby Astus » Wed Jan 11, 2017 1:44 pm

Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.



User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 24173
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Surangama Sutra as an anti-Dzogchen intervention

Postby Malcolm » Wed Jan 11, 2017 1:49 pm





འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


Free of hope and fear, relax.
Human life spent in
a state of great spaciousness is enjoyable.


— Kunzang Dechen Lingpa

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Coëmgenu
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Location: Whitby, Ontario

Re: Surangama Sutra as an anti-Dzogchen intervention

Postby Coëmgenu » Wed Jan 11, 2017 3:22 pm


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Malcolm
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Re: Surangama Sutra as an anti-Dzogchen intervention

Postby Malcolm » Wed Jan 11, 2017 3:30 pm





འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


Free of hope and fear, relax.
Human life spent in
a state of great spaciousness is enjoyable.


— Kunzang Dechen Lingpa

User avatar
Tsongkhapafan
Posts: 1097
Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2011 9:36 am

Re: Surangama Sutra as an anti-Dzogchen intervention

Postby Tsongkhapafan » Wed Jan 11, 2017 10:29 pm



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