Surangama Sutra as an anti-Dzogchen intervention

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Tsongkhapafan
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Re: Surangama Sutra as an anti-Dzogchen intervention

Postby Tsongkhapafan » Wed Jan 11, 2017 10:31 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Tsongkhapafan wrote:
I'm happy to be in the minority - it's normally a good thing. Again, this is rather surprising to me as there is no enlightenment without causes and a graduated path.


Sadly, in this lifetime you will never understand the result that does not arise from cause, will never hear the intimate instruction that does not arise from scripture, nor realize the buddhahood that does not come from mind.

However, every time you see those six little syllables in my sig, it is planting a cause for your eventual liberation through Dzogchen teachings.


That sounds a bit arrogant Malcolm, but I appreciate your sentiment.

Fortunately I have Highest Yoga Tantra and don't need anything else.

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Re: Surangama Sutra as an anti-Dzogchen intervention

Postby Malcolm » Wed Jan 11, 2017 10:41 pm

Tsongkhapafan wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Tsongkhapafan wrote:
I'm happy to be in the minority - it's normally a good thing. Again, this is rather surprising to me as there is no enlightenment without causes and a graduated path.


Sadly, in this lifetime you will never understand the result that does not arise from cause, will never hear the intimate instruction that does not arise from scripture, nor realize the buddhahood that does not come from mind.

However, every time you see those six little syllables in my sig, it is planting a cause for your eventual liberation through Dzogchen teachings.


That sounds a bit arrogant Malcolm, but I appreciate your sentiment.


I was responding in kind to your biased statement.

The teaching of Vajradhara also is the result that does not arise from cause, the intimate instruction that does not arise from scripture, and the buddhahood that does not come from mind. Merely because you have not received this teaching does not make it false. Your incredulity also makes it no less the teaching of Buddha Vajradhara. Garab Dorje is a predicted emanation of Vajradhara. Again, just because you do not read these tantras does not make them invalid.
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Re: Surangama Sutra as an anti-Dzogchen intervention

Postby Tsongkhapafan » Wed Jan 11, 2017 10:44 pm

Malcolm wrote:The teaching of Vajradhara also is the result that does not arise from cause, the intimate instruction that does not arise from scripture, and the buddhahood that does not come from mind. Merely because you have not received this teaching does not make it false. Your incredulity also makes it no less the teaching of Buddha Vajradhara. Garab Dorje is a predicted emanation of Vajradhara. Again, just because you do not read these tantras does not make them invalid.


So you believe, and you're free to do so.

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Re: Surangama Sutra as an anti-Dzogchen intervention

Postby Malcolm » Wed Jan 11, 2017 10:46 pm

Tsongkhapafan wrote:
Malcolm wrote:The teaching of Vajradhara also is the result that does not arise from cause, the intimate instruction that does not arise from scripture, and the buddhahood that does not come from mind. Merely because you have not received this teaching does not make it false. Your incredulity also makes it no less the teaching of Buddha Vajradhara. Garab Dorje is a predicted emanation of Vajradhara. Again, just because you do not read these tantras does not make them invalid.


So you believe, and you're free to do so.



My reply to you is the same as Nāgārjuna's reply to those who bore doubt about Mahāyāna in the Ratnavali. Higher vehicles always seems questionable to those who follower lower vehicles.
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Re: Surangama Sutra as an anti-Dzogchen intervention

Postby Tsongkhapafan » Wed Jan 11, 2017 10:50 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Tsongkhapafan wrote:
Malcolm wrote:The teaching of Vajradhara also is the result that does not arise from cause, the intimate instruction that does not arise from scripture, and the buddhahood that does not come from mind. Merely because you have not received this teaching does not make it false. Your incredulity also makes it no less the teaching of Buddha Vajradhara. Garab Dorje is a predicted emanation of Vajradhara. Again, just because you do not read these tantras does not make them invalid.


So you believe, and you're free to do so.



My reply to you is the same as Nāgārjuna's reply to those who bore doubt about Mahāyāna in the Ratnavali. Higher vehicles always seems questionable to those who follower lower vehicles.


There is also a history of false teachings being touted as higher too, so one must be careful and investigate thoroughly as Buddha said.

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Re: Surangama Sutra as an anti-Dzogchen intervention

Postby Malcolm » Wed Jan 11, 2017 11:08 pm

Tsongkhapafan wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Tsongkhapafan wrote:
So you believe, and you're free to do so.



My reply to you is the same as Nāgārjuna's reply to those who bore doubt about Mahāyāna in the Ratnavali. Higher vehicles always seems questionable to those who follower lower vehicles.


There is also a history of false teachings being touted as higher too, so one must be careful and investigate thoroughly as Buddha said.


There is nothing false about the teachings brought to Tibet by Ācārya Padmasambhava, Paṇḍita Vimalamitra and Lotsawa Vairocana. Even Tsongkhapa accepted Dzogchen teachings as valid. I advise you to read the ཞུ་ལན་སྨན་མཆོག་བདུད་རྩིའི་ཕྲེང་བ by Tsongkhapa where he records a dialogue between himself and his Nyingma Guru Laykyi Dorje who acted as a intermediary between Tsongkhapa and Vajrapani. It is in Tsongkhapa's collected works.
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Re: Surangama Sutra as an anti-Dzogchen intervention

Postby Tsongkhapafan » Wed Jan 11, 2017 11:15 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Tsongkhapafan wrote:
Malcolm wrote:

My reply to you is the same as Nāgārjuna's reply to those who bore doubt about Mahāyāna in the Ratnavali. Higher vehicles always seems questionable to those who follower lower vehicles.


There is also a history of false teachings being touted as higher too, so one must be careful and investigate thoroughly as Buddha said.


There is nothing false about the teachings brought to Tibet by Ācārya Padmasambhava, Paṇḍita Vimalamitra and Lotsawa Vairocana. Even Tsongkhapa accepted Dzogchen teachings as valid. I advise you to read the ཞུ་ལན་སྨན་མཆོག་བདུད་རྩིའི་ཕྲེང་བ by Tsongkhapa where he records a dialogue between himself and his Nyingma Guru Laykyi Dorje who acted as a intermediary between Tsongkhapa and Vajrapani. It is in Tsongkhapa's collected works.


No, there is no record of Tsongkhapa accepting the Dzogchen teachings as valid, otherwise he would have taught them if they were valid and important. There is nothing else needed for Gelugpas to attain enlightenment than the practice of Lamrim, Lojong and Vajrayana Mahamudra.

I'm going to stop this 'my teaching is better than your teaching' dialogue as it serves no purpose. If you find value in Dzogchen, fine, I have my own path.

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Re: Surangama Sutra as an anti-Dzogchen intervention

Postby Norwegian » Wed Jan 11, 2017 11:18 pm

Tsongkhapafan wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Tsongkhapafan wrote:
There is also a history of false teachings being touted as higher too, so one must be careful and investigate thoroughly as Buddha said.


There is nothing false about the teachings brought to Tibet by Ācārya Padmasambhava, Paṇḍita Vimalamitra and Lotsawa Vairocana. Even Tsongkhapa accepted Dzogchen teachings as valid. I advise you to read the ཞུ་ལན་སྨན་མཆོག་བདུད་རྩིའི་ཕྲེང་བ by Tsongkhapa where he records a dialogue between himself and his Nyingma Guru Laykyi Dorje who acted as a intermediary between Tsongkhapa and Vajrapani. It is in Tsongkhapa's collected works.


No, there is no record of Tsongkhapa accepting the Dzogchen teachings as valid, otherwise he would have taught them if they were valid and important. There is nothing else needed for Gelugpas to attain enlightenment than the practice of Lamrim, Lojong and Vajrayana Mahamudra.

I assume you have read the ཞུ་ལན་སྨན་མཆོག་བདུད་རྩིའི་ཕྲེང་བ?

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Re: Surangama Sutra as an anti-Dzogchen intervention

Postby Malcolm » Wed Jan 11, 2017 11:21 pm

Tsongkhapafan wrote:
No, there is no record of Tsongkhapa accepting the Dzogchen teachings as valid...


Dude, get a clue. This text is in the first volume of Tsongkhapa's collected works, Zhol edition, ppg. 295-314, directly before Tsongkhapa's commentary on the Fifty Verses of Guru Devotion. It is in the same place in all the other collected works as well.

But go ahead, keep your head in the sand.
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Re: Surangama Sutra as an anti-Dzogchen intervention

Postby Matt J » Wed Jan 11, 2017 11:33 pm

HHDL likes Dzogchen--- doesn't his opinion count at least a little given his relationship with LTKR?
The Great Way is not difficult
If only there is no picking or choosing
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http://nondualism.org/

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Re: Surangama Sutra as an anti-Dzogchen intervention

Postby Malcolm » Wed Jan 11, 2017 11:36 pm

Matt J wrote:HHDL likes Dzogchen--- doesn't his opinion count at least a little given his relationship with LTKR?


Not with TKF, he is a gyalpo practitioner.
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So called “sentient beings” are merely delusions self-appearing from the dhātu of luminosity.

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Re: Surangama Sutra as an anti-Dzogchen intervention

Postby dzogchungpa » Wed Jan 11, 2017 11:47 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Matt J wrote:HHDL likes Dzogchen--- doesn't his opinion count at least a little given his relationship with LTKR?


Not with TKF, he is a gyalpo practitioner.


OK, now it all makes sense. :(
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Re: Surangama Sutra as an anti-Dzogchen intervention

Postby Karma Dondrup Tashi » Wed Jan 11, 2017 11:56 pm

Tsongkhapafan wrote:... when people claim they can attain enlightenment by meditating on the clarity of the mind which is only a conventional truth ...

Maybe clarity of the mind is true, just not inherently true. :mrgreen:
The self loathes suffering and loves the causes of suffering. It stupidly wages war in the name of peace. It wishes for enlightenment but detests the path to enlightenment. It wishes to work as a socialist but live as a capitalist. When the self feels lonely, it desires friendship. Its possessiveness of those it loves manifests in passion that can lead to aggression. Its supposed enemies—such as spiritual paths designed to conquer the ego — are often corrupted and recruited as the self’s ally.
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Re: Surangama Sutra as an anti-Dzogchen intervention

Postby Matt J » Thu Jan 12, 2017 12:08 am

Doesn't that leave at least the second, fifth, and thirteenth Dalai Lamas?

Malcolm wrote:
Matt J wrote:HHDL likes Dzogchen--- doesn't his opinion count at least a little given his relationship with LTKR?


Not with TKF, he is a gyalpo practitioner.
The Great Way is not difficult
If only there is no picking or choosing
--- Xin Xin Ming

http://nondualism.org/

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Re: Surangama Sutra as an anti-Dzogchen intervention

Postby jmlee369 » Thu Jan 12, 2017 12:09 am

Tsongkhapafan wrote:There is also a history of false teachings being touted as higher too, so one must be careful and investigate thoroughly as Buddha said.


Surely Lama Tsongkhapa did not waste his time practising a "false teaching." And prophecies from sutras are tricky things, if you really examine them. There are many practices Lama Tsongkhapa undertook which are somewhat neglected in contemporary Gelug circles in the West, such as Mahachakra Vajrapani, the Luipa lineages of Chakrasamvara, Guhyasamaja (situation improving somewhat), Sarasvati, extensive study of the Avatamsaka Sutra, etc etc.

As for "no enlightenment without HYT", you really should be more specific and at least say "no Buddhahood without HYT" because there are plenty of realisations that are achievable without tantra (arhat, pratyekabuddhahood, bodhisattva bhumis, etc). Even with that claim, if my memory serves me right, Lama Tsongkhapa mentioned in Ngagrim Chenmo that those practising lower tantra could attain Buddhahood in their current human body if they lengthened their lifespan, whereas the special feature of HYT was to bring about Buddhahood in a single short lifespan in this degenrate age. However, I also recall Khedrup Je being quite adamant about all Buddhas going through HYT at some point to reach that stage. Whether the basis of such statements were meant to be taken literally remains to be seen (given how the tantras can be notoriously difficult to interpret)

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Re: Surangama Sutra as an anti-Dzogchen intervention

Postby Tsongkhapafan » Thu Jan 12, 2017 9:43 am

Karma Dondrup Tashi wrote:
Tsongkhapafan wrote:... when people claim they can attain enlightenment by meditating on the clarity of the mind which is only a conventional truth ...

Maybe clarity of the mind is true, just not inherently true. :mrgreen:


It's not emptiness.

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Re: Surangama Sutra as an anti-Dzogchen intervention

Postby Tsongkhapafan » Thu Jan 12, 2017 9:53 am

jmlee369 wrote:
Tsongkhapafan wrote:There is also a history of false teachings being touted as higher too, so one must be careful and investigate thoroughly as Buddha said.


Surely Lama Tsongkhapa did not waste his time practising a "false teaching." And prophecies from sutras are tricky things, if you really examine them. There are many practices Lama Tsongkhapa undertook which are somewhat neglected in contemporary Gelug circles in the West, such as Mahachakra Vajrapani, the Luipa lineages of Chakrasamvara, Guhyasamaja (situation improving somewhat), Sarasvati, extensive study of the Avatamsaka Sutra, etc etc.

As for "no enlightenment without HYT", you really should be more specific and at least say "no Buddhahood without HYT" because there are plenty of realisations that are achievable without tantra (arhat, pratyekabuddhahood, bodhisattva bhumis, etc). Even with that claim, if my memory serves me right, Lama Tsongkhapa mentioned in Ngagrim Chenmo that those practising lower tantra could attain Buddhahood in their current human body if they lengthened their lifespan, whereas the special feature of HYT was to bring about Buddhahood in a single short lifespan in this degenrate age. However, I also recall Khedrup Je being quite adamant about all Buddhas going through HYT at some point to reach that stage. Whether the basis of such statements were meant to be taken literally remains to be seen (given how the tantras can be notoriously difficult to interpret)


The main cause of a Buddha's enjoyment body is the illusory body and the main cause of a Buddha's truth body is meaning clear light. It is not possible to attain these without meditation on completion stage and they are completion stage realisations. It is not possible to attain completion stage realisations by practising any of the lower tantras.

You're perfectly right to say that I should say that Buddhahood is not possible without practising HYT as there is the enlightenment of a hearer and the enlightenment of a solitary realizer, however, strictly speaking, it's not possible to attain even liberation or nirvana without practising completion stage because it is impossible to remove all delusions from the mind without meditating on emptiness with the clear light mind. Actual liberation is only attained with the realisation of meaning clear light which is obviously not possible in the hearer's vehicle and the solitary realiser's vehicle. It isn't even possible in the sutra bodhisattva's path so the practise of HYT is indispensable to the attainment of the great enlightenment of a Buddha but even to attain liberation from samsara it is necessary.

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Re: Surangama Sutra as an anti-Dzogchen intervention

Postby Tsongkhapafan » Thu Jan 12, 2017 10:10 am

Malcolm wrote:
Matt J wrote:HHDL likes Dzogchen--- doesn't his opinion count at least a little given his relationship with LTKR?


Not with TKF, he is a gyalpo practitioner.


Another example of why it is necessary to check sources carefully and only trust reliable ones.

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Re: Surangama Sutra as an anti-Dzogchen intervention

Postby Malcolm » Thu Jan 12, 2017 2:49 pm

Tsongkhapafan wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Matt J wrote:HHDL likes Dzogchen--- doesn't his opinion count at least a little given his relationship with LTKR?


Not with TKF, he is a gyalpo practitioner.


Another example of why it is necessary to check sources carefully and only trust reliable ones.


Yes, this is why we trust HHDL instead of those who follow the gyalpo.
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Re: Surangama Sutra as an anti-Dzogchen intervention

Postby Minobu » Thu Jan 12, 2017 4:58 pm

At this point in time , considering we are in a degenerative age, we should not be aggressively trying so hard to damage various Mahayana teachings.
I think when one comes to terms with their practice and it actually generates realization you realize all the banter and counter banter are for people of no realization.
Be happy that everyone here spends part of their day practicing Mahayana practice for all sentient beings.

Enjoy each other's difference of opinion.
there are no bad teachings being bandied about here, why the big push to discredit each other.
look what happened here a prime example of what i am talking about.

Each and every thread takes this turn . i think people are so insecure with their practice , or actually not practicing at all, that they spend time here trying to discredit one another.

give it a rest people and try to enjoy each other. Shouting you know something more than anyone else year in year out is obviously a tell that you are trying to come to terms with what you are so desperately trying to convince everyone of.


the very title of this thread is loathe some in this degenerative age.

We are living in an Orwellian 1984 Nightmare


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