¿What a buddhist title really means?

[jet.urgyen]

Dear fellows,

There is a delicate matter nowadays regarded to the intelectual cathegorization of titles on one hand -such as Boddhisathva, Arhat, Rimpoche, Tulku, and so- and the "encarnation" of titles in the other. it's delicate matter because it questions our faith and devotion, yes, but i believe it is something that can be of some use and of some help for everyone for avoiding misfortunes.

i personally feel that hopefully and very rarely a title and a person match, but now

¿does categorization really mean something by today? ¿is it useful for what? ¿how we recognize someone who is trustable? ¿does a title given by who-knows to someone mean that that someone is trustable?¿is a title dependant on what?

misunderstandigs on this can lead to confusion, for example ignoring a living Awaken-One who is not entitled, or following a pseudo-guru who is, so, consequently ¿how can we refine our perception?

please don't cite a text from literature to answer.

Best regards

[dzogchungpa]

Can you be more specific about how this issue is affecting you?

[jet.urgyen]

Can you be more specific about how this issue is affecting you?

i'm a little bit worried about the misuse of dharma and the deceive of people's trust -budhist or not-. in general it is very difficult to find a perfect teacher who dwells pure awareness, a Tathagata, an authentic Buddha, so i believe that, due to the claim of some to be one or the believe in the use of titles as a credential of this in general we are lead to confusion.

so i wonder on how can we refine our perception in order to recognize correctly, regardless of words, names, honours and so.

i know it's controversial, but i feel is veeery very important.

[dzogchungpa]

Can you be more specific about how this issue is affecting you?

i'm a little bit worried about the misuse of dharma and the deceive of people's trust -budhist or not-. in general it is very difficult to find a perfect teacher who dwells pure awareness, a Tathagata, an authentic Buddha, so i believe that, due to the claim of some to be one or the believe in the use of titles as a credential of this in general we are lead to confusion.

so i wonder on how can we refine our perception in order to recognize correctly, regardless of words, names, honours and so.

i know it's controversial, but i feel is veeery very important.

Well, I admit it is a difficult and important issue. I don't have much to say about it, other than that I think people need to maintain a balance between being critical and being open-minded. Apparently that is quite tricky for most people.

[jet.urgyen]

Well, I admit it is a difficult and important issue. I don't have much to say about it, other than that I think people need to maintain a balance between being critical and being open-minded. Apparently that is quite tricky for most people.

middle way approach, you made me smile, thank you this is useful for many of us.

[Palzang Jangchub]

In my experience, which is admittedly little, most of the truly great masters are utterly humble, rather than proclaiming their various titles and realization. A genuine lama doesn't rest on his or her laurels, nor boast about accomplishments.

HH the 14th Dalai Lama says he's just a simple monk. Kyabjé Garchen Rinpoche often remarks that he's no scholar, but has a little practical experience. The 17th Gyalwang Karmapa has said he doesn't believe he's qualified to be anyone's guru. However, being in the presence of any of them, you feel them radiating compassion and know that they rest in pure view. Sometimes their whole demeanor visibly changes when acting in their capacity as Vajra master, becoming serious and powerful.

In other words, authentic gurus don't boast about their accomplishments, and we should beware of anyone who displays their title and proclaims it loudly. Such people would seem to not have made much progress in eliminating their own self-cherishing. We, as students of the Buddhadharma, have to investigate our spiritual friends rather than go the easy route of blind faith.

Guru literally means "heavy," as in "heavy with qualities." Humility is just one of these, but it is an important one IMO. Humility demonstrates a lack of self-grasping and a practical realization of no-self.

[Minobu]

living in the worse of degenerate times when most Dharma is of no use and lost it's abilities makes for all sort of confusions..not to mention money making opportunities.

I've met people who radiate love...at least they still come here to show us what is possible.

Welcome to Mappo . A time when the warnings of the degenerate age are ignored.

[Johnny Dangerous]

Judging from the historical record, fake Guru's are nothing new. Despite it being the degenerate age, charlatans have always been around, and always will be as long there are suffering to milk of their admiration, money, and autonomy.

As to how to tell, just do as is prescribed and deeply examine a teacher, that's the best you can do.

[Palzang Jangchub]

I'm reminded of the Four Reliances, which seem very applicable in this case:

1. Do not rely on the individual, but on the Dharma
2. Do not rely on the words, but on the meaning
3. Do not rely on the provisional meaning, but on the definitive meaning
4. Do not rely on the ordinary mind, but rely on wisdom

There are also several books out there on how the guru-student relationship should work. Kongtrul's The Teacher-Student Relationship is a classic, and Berzin's Wise Teacher Wise Student: Tibetan Approaches To A Healthy Relationship is a modern take. Not to mention the explicit instructions on how to investigate the guru mentioned in the Tantras.

[jet.urgyen]

I'm reminded of the Four Reliances, which seem very applicable in this case:

1. Do not rely on the individual, but on the Dharma
2. Do not rely on the words, but on the meaning
3. Do not rely on the provisional meaning, but on the definitive meaning
4. Do not rely on the ordinary mind, but rely on wisdom

There are also several books out there on how the guru-student relationship should work. Kongtrul's The Teacher-Student Relationship is a classic, and Berzin's Wise Teacher Wise Student: Tibetan Approaches To A Healthy Relationship is a modern take. Not to mention the explicit instructions on how to investigate the guru mentioned in the Tantras.

this is usefull on the personal attitude and the relationship with our Guru. Seem's that our personal attitude -linked to the four reliances which seems legit by simple inspection- is the very first step.

thank you very much and everybody for your kind answers to this request. this is useful indeed.

[muni]

Hi Javier,

As what has been told, all depends on our own perception, our karmic vision. There can be an emanation of Primordial Knowledge/Primordial Goodness but when we perceive a human who knows about the teachings of the Buddha, then we get teachings from such human. Or when we see a Bodhisattva or see Buddha talking, the given teaching will be in accordance. I think in case of the human, we rely strongly on titles, names and these can be meaningful to say: over here, here is teaching available! Hello!

Whether we pay homage to an appearing famous human/individual or we do that to a so called charlatan, both depends on our own karmic vision, I guess? We then rely on appearances/on names and so. That is perhaps why I always heard in case of doubt; we should first study the Dharma carefully for ourselves, contemplate about and then finally look for a teacher. And also when mind is ready, is there said, Enlightened Guidance is there, as there is no master without a student.

Many called Rinpoche, were bathing into the penetrating teachings from small on, since they were seen as suitable vessel, had the qualities, so I try to see that. But *Rinpoche* should actually only 'be seen' by own purification. While a suspicious mind is not useful.

Oh yes, the reliances!

[Soma999]

Titles are just clothes. It tells nothing about who wear it.

I will tell you two exemples.

One healer who said "diploma ? none. My practice ? Get myself out of the way and give everything for the other".
Results ? A lot. Still, not the slightest title.

Another person i met : i follow this person for years without even knowing a glimpse of what this person did. Because it resonnates so strongly in the heart. Because light shines everywhere. Because words are filled with compassion. Because so many lessons of life seems to have been integrated. For years i knew nothing. Why would i want to ask diploma when the life of the person is filled with maturity ?

The more one show of with diploma, title, me i am this, i am that, me, me, me... without wanting to make generalisation, it does not smell good.

Another person, famous, full of title, i won't give the name, told me something like "how do you dare saying you agree or not with me ? do you know who i am ?". Well, no, i didn't know who you are, but now i know better.

So, from my experience, titles can be quiet misleading.

If you look at christianity, consider this fact : the Virgin often appears to children. Not to the pope. Not to high important persons. No, to the most simple persons. Why ? Maybe something to investigate.

[muni]

Yes, perhaps many for us unknown ones, realized Nature/Primordial Goodness, and guide unknowingly, benefitting all.
Since how can Nature/Primordial Goodness/Primordial Knowledge be known?!