Mahamudra and Dzogchen: Are they based on Sutra or Tantra?

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Re: Mahamudra and Dzogchen: Are they based on Sutra or Tantra?

Postby heart » Sun Nov 25, 2012 9:30 pm

There is Mahamudra, according to Gampopa, that is both based on sutra and tantra. Dzogchen is all based on tantras. Cool it boys.

/magnus
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Re: Mahamudra and Dzogchen: Are they based on Sutra or Tantra?

Postby JohnRammy » Sun Nov 25, 2012 9:33 pm

Everything lacks the identity (atman) imputed by mere conceptual labels.

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Re: Mahamudra and Dzogchen: Are they based on Sutra or Tantra?

Postby Jinzang » Mon Nov 26, 2012 1:49 am

Indian mahamudra is largely based on the texts of Saraha. Since Saraha is famously critical of tantric practices, it would be difficult to call mahamudra solely a tantric practice. However, the view of mahamudra is compatible with tantra, and the Hevajra tantra is often cited in support. The same is true of third turning/tathagatagarbha teachings which are compaptible with both tantra and mahamudra and the three are taught as the definitive view in the Kagyu tradition.
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Re: Mahamudra and Dzogchen: Are they based on Sutra or Tantra?

Postby JohnRammy » Mon Nov 26, 2012 2:01 am

First off we are not talking about tantric features per se, but rather the tantric class of literature vs the sutra class of literature.

Secondly, I think you misunderstand tantric as equaling karmamudra, when there are many other defining features of Buddhist tantra including the inseperable clarity and emptiness of the mind.

That being said, I will indulge in your game.

The Mahamudra of Saraha calls for direct introduction by a guru explicitly. This is tantric.

Saraha passed on Cakrasamvara especially

Saraha also has less well known writings, all commentaries on tantras. tantric deity sadhanas etc.
Last edited by JohnRammy on Mon Nov 26, 2012 2:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Mind versus Self?

Postby deepbluehum » Mon Nov 26, 2012 2:10 am


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Re: Mahamudra and Dzogchen: Are they based on Sutra or Tantra?

Postby JohnRammy » Mon Nov 26, 2012 2:14 am

Mahamudra is based on a class of literature called tantras, not sutras.

What are the tantras themselves based on?

You yourself hinted that the tantras are based on Madhyamaka on page 1. Remember Metripa?
Last edited by JohnRammy on Mon Nov 26, 2012 2:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Mahamudra and Dzogchen: Are they based on Sutra or Tantra?

Postby deepbluehum » Mon Nov 26, 2012 2:15 am


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Re: Mahamudra and Dzogchen: Are they based on Sutra or Tantra?

Postby JohnRammy » Mon Nov 26, 2012 2:16 am

Everything lacks the identity (atman) imputed by mere conceptual labels.

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Re: Mahamudra and Dzogchen: Are they based on Sutra or Tantra?

Postby Karma Dorje » Mon Nov 26, 2012 2:24 am

"Although my view is higher than the sky, My respect for the cause and effect of actions is as fine as grains of flour."
-Padmasambhava

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Re: Mahamudra and Dzogchen: Are they based on Sutra or Tantra?

Postby JohnRammy » Mon Nov 26, 2012 2:26 am

Everything lacks the identity (atman) imputed by mere conceptual labels.

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Re: Mind versus Self?

Postby Karma Dorje » Mon Nov 26, 2012 2:27 am

"Although my view is higher than the sky, My respect for the cause and effect of actions is as fine as grains of flour."
-Padmasambhava

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Re: Mahamudra and Dzogchen: Are they based on Sutra or Tantra?

Postby deepbluehum » Mon Nov 26, 2012 2:30 am


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Re: Mind versus Self?

Postby deepbluehum » Mon Nov 26, 2012 2:30 am


JohnRammy
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Re: Mahamudra and Dzogchen: Are they based on Sutra or Tantra?

Postby JohnRammy » Mon Nov 26, 2012 2:33 am

Everything lacks the identity (atman) imputed by mere conceptual labels.

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Re: Mahamudra and Dzogchen: Are they based on Sutra or Tantra?

Postby JohnRammy » Mon Nov 26, 2012 2:35 am

I can agree that the tantras are based on sutric Madhyamaka :cheers:
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Re: Mahamudra and Dzogchen: Are they based on Sutra or Tantra?

Postby JohnRammy » Mon Nov 26, 2012 2:37 am

Everything lacks the identity (atman) imputed by mere conceptual labels.

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Re: Mahamudra and Dzogchen: Are they based on Sutra or Tantra?

Postby deepbluehum » Mon Nov 26, 2012 2:43 am


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Re: Mahamudra and Dzogchen: Are they based on Sutra or Tantra?

Postby deepbluehum » Mon Nov 26, 2012 2:44 am


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Re: Mahamudra and Dzogchen: Are they based on Sutra or Tantra?

Postby JohnRammy » Mon Nov 26, 2012 2:47 am

I was disparaging Kagyu from page 1

:rolling:


No but seriously, Kayu classification and Gampopa definitely confuses the issue, as I've been hinting at from page 1.
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Re: Mahamudra and Dzogchen: Are they based on Sutra or Tantra?

Postby deepbluehum » Mon Nov 26, 2012 2:52 am



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