Mind equals thoughts?

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Mind equals thoughts?

Postby Konchog1 » Sun Sep 22, 2013 4:07 am

On Dakpo Tashi Namgyal's Clarifying the Natural State pg. 33 it says: "you must become certain that it is mind that merely appears or is seen as being thoughts. You must resolve that thoughts and mind are indivisible. [...] [the mind] does appear as a variety of thoughts. Even though it appears as them, it has not changed from being the aware emptiness of the mind that is not a definable entity."

This makes sense but I heard that one should 'let the mind rest in thought free lucidity' and of thoughts covering purity of the mind. Doesn't the mean that mind and thoughts are different things?
Equanimity is the ground. Love is the moisture. Compassion is the seed. Bodhicitta is the result.

-Paraphrase of Khensur Rinpoche Lobsang Tsephel citing the Guhyasamaja Tantra

"All memories and thoughts are the union of emptiness and knowing, the Mind.
Without attachment, self-liberating, like a snake in a knot.
Through the qualities of meditating in that way,
Mental obscurations are purified and the dharmakaya is attained."

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Re: Mind equals thoughts?

Postby Johnny Dangerous » Sun Sep 22, 2013 4:11 am

Konchog1 wrote:On Dakpo Tashi Namgyal's Clarifying the Natural State pg. 33 it says: "you must become certain that it is mind that merely appears or is seen as being thoughts. You must resolve that thoughts and mind are indivisible. [...] [the mind] does appear as a variety of thoughts. Even though it appears as them, it has not changed from being the aware emptiness of the mind that is not a definable entity."

This makes sense but I heard that one should 'let the mind rest in thought free lucidity' and of thoughts covering purity of the mind. Doesn't the mean that mind and thoughts are different things?



I've never quite gotten this either, in some of the Mahamudra stuff they say it's a sign of progress when you no longer see thoughts as impediments, though it's somewhat contrary because from the beginning there are lots of teachings about moving mind and still mind..just conventional terms I guess.
"Just as a lotus does not grow out of a well-levelled soil but from the mire, in the same way the awakening mind
is not born in the hearts of disciples in whom the moisture of attachment has dried up. It grows instead in the hearts of ordinary sentient beings who possess in full the fetters of bondage." -Se Chilbu Choki Gyaltsen
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Re: Mind equals thoughts?

Postby muni » Sun Sep 22, 2013 9:30 am

Locked in thoughts gives the arising of the conceptual world and is equal with locked in chasing moving mind.
Awareness aware is Mind, not chasing its movements just like the open vast sky is not chasing or hunting passing winds. Moving mind is chasing wind itself, not aware of the spacious sky at all.

The dependency of appearances / emptiness are not two things, seen as Awareness.

There is no thought/mind with its conceptual world when there is no grasping thought, what is grasping following thoughts or being locked in their flow of habitual fictitious stories, which are hiding (temporary) our peaceful nature.

That nature we all are, without exception.

o o :anjali:
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Re: Mind equals thoughts?

Postby heart » Sun Sep 22, 2013 11:42 am

Konchog1 wrote:On Dakpo Tashi Namgyal's Clarifying the Natural State pg. 33 it says: "you must become certain that it is mind that merely appears or is seen as being thoughts. You must resolve that thoughts and mind are indivisible. [...] [the mind] does appear as a variety of thoughts. Even though it appears as them, it has not changed from being the aware emptiness of the mind that is not a definable entity."

This makes sense but I heard that one should 'let the mind rest in thought free lucidity' and of thoughts covering purity of the mind. Doesn't the mean that mind and thoughts are different things?


Being free from thoughts and not having thoughts are not necessarily the same thing, as it is said in the Dzogchen teachings ;"the more thoughts the more dharmakaya"

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
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Re: Mind equals thoughts?

Postby muni » Mon Sep 23, 2013 7:04 am

I find it helpful to discern the conceptual conditioned, and non-conceptual nonconditioned in which thoughts are not identified as mine/ours.
:soapbox: Like the conceptual conditioned can be seen like some traditions call it little mind ( story of the frog ). That little one thinks to be the owner of thoughts but is infact enslaved by them (due to grasping to their solid reality I guess), while the nonconditioned or vast mind without beginning or end is mastering mind and the free thoughts are as nectar or light to show the delusion of me-thought or me-mind from which others-mind arises.

"The two main types of mind are explained as the conceptual and the non-conceptual. The conceptual is the "normal" mind aspect we use to survive in daily life, but is ultimately mistaken about the way in which reality exists. The non-conceptual type of mind is also called the Buddha nature, rigpa (Tib.), fundamental pure nature of mind which realises emptiness (see the page on Wisdom).
Study and training the mind in wisdom uses the conceptual mind, like preparing the mind before the underlying non-conceptual Buddha-nature of the mind can appear".
http://viewonbuddhism.org/mind.html
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Re: Mind equals thoughts?

Postby monktastic » Wed Sep 25, 2013 2:05 am

Konchog1 wrote:On Dakpo Tashi Namgyal's Clarifying the Natural State pg. 33 it says: "you must become certain that it is mind that merely appears or is seen as being thoughts. You must resolve that thoughts and mind are indivisible. [...] [the mind] does appear as a variety of thoughts. Even though it appears as them, it has not changed from being the aware emptiness of the mind that is not a definable entity."

This makes sense but I heard that one should 'let the mind rest in thought free lucidity' and of thoughts covering purity of the mind. Doesn't the mean that mind and thoughts are different things?


Have you read Thrangu Rinpoche's commentary on Pointing Out the Dharmakaya? In the section on investigating the mind in movement, this is covered in great detail.

Perhaps it would also be valuable to go and find quotes which suggest that thoughts actually cover the purity of the mind. The context may make it more clear. Also, as Magnus points out, being free of thoughts is not the same as not having thoughts -- though the formulation "thought free lucidity" may be particularly unfortunate if this is what is being conveyed here. Again, hard to say without context.
This undistracted state of ordinary mind
Is the meditation.
One will understand it in due course.

--Gampopa
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Re: Mind equals thoughts?

Postby anjali » Wed Sep 25, 2013 3:43 am

Konchog1 wrote:On Dakpo Tashi Namgyal's Clarifying the Natural State pg. 33 it says: "you must become certain that it is mind that merely appears or is seen as being thoughts. You must resolve that thoughts and mind are indivisible. [...] [the mind] does appear as a variety of thoughts. Even though it appears as them, it has not changed from being the aware emptiness of the mind that is not a definable entity."

This makes sense but I heard that one should 'let the mind rest in thought free lucidity' and of thoughts covering purity of the mind. Doesn't the mean that mind and thoughts are different things?


No. They appear to be different things. Pg. 33 explains that very nicely. On pg. 43, the section Pointing out Innate Thinking offers additional insight. Perhaps this quote from Heart Advice from a Mahamudra Master by Gendun Rinpoche might also help,
When our mind ceases reacting to a thought that arises, it will recognize the thought as a movement of itself. Recognizing itself in the movement, it remains relaxed and finds rest.


By any chance, are you also reading Crystal Clear, Khenchen Thrangu Rinpoche's commentary on CtNS? It not, it's highly recommended.
  • The object of the game is to go on playing it. --John Von Neumann
  • All activities are like the games children play. If started, they can never be finished. They are only completed once you let them be, like castles made of sand. --Khenpo Nyoshul Rinpoche
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