Minimum prerequisites for physical karmamudra practice?

Forum for discussion of Tibetan Buddhism. Questions specific to one school are best posted in the appropriate sub-forum.
Malcolm
Posts: 42974
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Minimum prerequisites for physical karmamudra practice?

Post by Malcolm »

conebeckham wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
conebeckham wrote:even to THINK about the Path of Passion as a "Layman's off-time activity," much less the Advanced Completion Stage Karmamudra practice, with a Non-Buddhist spouse or significant other?
This does not require retreat. It is a requirement from the moment one completes abhisheka.

Of course, this does not mean that it is practical. If anyone wonders why it seems that so few people get realization despite the promises made in the tantras, it is because people do not observe samaya carefully.

M
Sure. The vast majority of those who have received abhisheka don't even do the NyenDrup, much less the post-session activities, though. Not saying that's good....it's just the way it is.

Not even doing the Nyendrup, how can people talk about the path of passion, much less Karmamudra?
If you are practicing the sadhana, whether you have done any retreat or not, you should be practicing the yoga of passion if you have a partner. Therefore, that partner better be a fellow practitioner, no?
JKhedrup
Posts: 2328
Joined: Wed May 30, 2012 8:28 am

Re: Minimum prerequisites for physical karmamudra practice?

Post by JKhedrup »

You know, one of the happiest marriages I know is between a Kagyupa and a tirthika (practicing with Saiva Siddhanta gurus based out of Kauai).

Because they are both spiritual practitioners there is little conflict.

The Buddhist couples I know have a far harder go of it. With a couple of exceptions, the children of Western Buddhist parents I know would not go within 50 metres of a dharna centre. They see them as places of competition, jealousy and disharmony, even though many believe the teachings are sound.
User avatar
dzogchungpa
Posts: 6333
Joined: Sat May 28, 2011 10:50 pm

Re: Minimum prerequisites for physical karmamudra practice?

Post by dzogchungpa »

JKhedrup wrote:You know, one of the happiest marriages I know is between a Kagyupa and a tirthika...
:jawdrop:
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche
plwk
Posts: 2932
Joined: Thu Feb 25, 2010 10:41 am

Re: Minimum prerequisites for physical karmamudra practice?

Post by plwk »

You know, one of the happiest marriages I know is between a Kagyupa and a tirthika
Let me guess, neither are from Dharma Wheel huh? :tongue:
(practicing with Saiva Siddhanta gurus based out of Kauai).
The one founded by Satguru Bodhinatha Veylanswami & Satguru Sivaya Subramuniyaswami right? I read much about them, nice.
User avatar
conebeckham
Posts: 5711
Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2010 11:49 pm
Location: Bay Area, CA, USA

Re: Minimum prerequisites for physical karmamudra practice?

Post by conebeckham »

Malcolm wrote: If you are practicing the sadhana, whether you have done any retreat or not, you should be practicing the yoga of passion if you have a partner. Therefore, that partner better be a fellow practitioner, no?
I will take your word for it. Frankly, very little of this was taught, as it is expected in Karma Kagyu that one does these sadhanas in celibate retreat--and I've not asked for alternate explanations.....The general principle of passionate action was explained, but no commentary on suitability of partners...for my fellow practitioners, it is a non-issue--we we all married to Dharma practitioners.

I am sure Sakyapas and Nyingmapas cover this in more detail, due to circumstances.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
Schrödinger’s Yidam
Posts: 7885
Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 6:13 am

Re: Minimum prerequisites for physical karmamudra practice?

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

JKhedrup wrote:...the children of Western Buddhist parents I know would not go within 50 metres of a dharna centre. They see them as places of competition, jealousy and disharmony, even though many believe the teachings are sound.
Sounds like my attitude. :tantrum:
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
JKhedrup
Posts: 2328
Joined: Wed May 30, 2012 8:28 am

Re: Minimum prerequisites for physical karmamudra practice?

Post by JKhedrup »

Yes plwk, that is the place- traditional Hindu community led by mostly Western swamis. Nice people, certainly generally more congenial than most Western Vajrayanists. More harmonious too , despite tantric injuctions about how to relate to vajra siblings that we find in our tradition.
User avatar
Grigoris
Former staff member
Posts: 21938
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: Minimum prerequisites for physical karmamudra practice?

Post by Grigoris »

Malcolm wrote:This stuff is not a joke, and actually, we ought not be discussing it in a public forum.
I think you'll find I said this back on page 3 or 4.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Malcolm
Posts: 42974
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Minimum prerequisites for physical karmamudra practice?

Post by Malcolm »

conebeckham wrote:
theanarchist wrote:
It's the choice of the teachers. They could still do it as it has been done in the past, giving empowerment and teaching vajrayana meditation strictly to people who are actually going into retreat. There are lamas who still handle it that way.
Sure. In Sakya's Lam Dre, where these instructions are found, as I understand it, there's no "3 year retreat" requirement, but mainly a daily practice commitment. I think there may sometimes be strict retreat requirement, too, though.
For Lamdre, no retreat commitment, generally as I understand things, these days people are allowed to attend the Tshogs bshad teachings without making a practice commitment apart from a short Hevajra sadhana. For Vajrayogini, yes there is a retreat if you take the some of the oral transmissions associated with the cycle, since it is easier to do.
theanarchist
Posts: 820
Joined: Thu Dec 26, 2013 7:26 pm

Re: Minimum prerequisites for physical karmamudra practice?

Post by theanarchist »

Malcolm wrote:
If you are practicing the sadhana, whether you have done any retreat or not, you should be practicing the yoga of passion if you have a partner. Therefore, that partner better be a fellow practitioner, no?


If you are following a vajrayana path you have to be realistic about how far you will be able to get in this lifetime. And for most of those karmamudra is not going to be on the menue this time around. So no reasion to look for a partner that would theoretically be suitable.
theanarchist
Posts: 820
Joined: Thu Dec 26, 2013 7:26 pm

Re: Minimum prerequisites for physical karmamudra practice?

Post by theanarchist »

JKhedrup wrote:
The Buddhist couples I know have a far harder go of it. With a couple of exceptions, the children of Western Buddhist parents I know would not go within 50 metres of a dharna centre. They see them as places of competition, jealousy and disharmony, even though many believe the teachings are sound.

I say the expectation that a buddhist (or other spiritual) group is less worldly in it's inner mechanics than for example your local allotment club or your work place is unavoidably going to end in disappointment. What stikes as most nasty is not the egoism and competition itself, it's the sugary sweet hypocritical outer behaviour that comes with it and that leaves you completely floored once you are hit by a bucket load of what is really going on because you really really hadn't expect something naricssistic lurking behind every second corner with all the talk about compassion and bodhicitta.
Malcolm
Posts: 42974
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Minimum prerequisites for physical karmamudra practice?

Post by Malcolm »

theanarchist wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
If you are practicing the sadhana, whether you have done any retreat or not, you should be practicing the yoga of passion if you have a partner. Therefore, that partner better be a fellow practitioner, no?


If you are following a vajrayana path you have to be realistic about how far you will be able to get in this lifetime. And for most of those karmamudra is not going to be on the menue this time around. So no reasion to look for a partner that would theoretically be suitable.
The yoga of passion, connected with creation stage, is not karma mudra practice, it is of the same nature as eating yoga, washing yoga and so on. If you practice this yoga with someone who had not been ripened it is a branch downfall.
User avatar
dzogchungpa
Posts: 6333
Joined: Sat May 28, 2011 10:50 pm

Re: Minimum prerequisites for physical karmamudra practice?

Post by dzogchungpa »

JKhedrup wrote:The current incarnation of Dudjom Rinpoche is my friend on Facebook. He quotes from Swami Yogananda in his posts almost as often as he quotes Padmasambhava.
:jawdrop:
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche
NastyButtler322
Posts: 1
Joined: Sat Sep 24, 2016 8:40 am

Re: Minimum prerequisites for physical karmamudra practice?

Post by NastyButtler322 »

The tibetan tradition is secretive for many other practices as well, for multiple reasons. This practice appears as though one would possibly have to be extremely disciplined in order to not give in to desire. The fact that I just wasted hours on trying to find instruction that may have leaked on the internet on how to perform this with an imagined consort tells me that people with lack of discepline like I just displayed are not ready. I fooled myself into beleiving it is curiosity. It was desire of contact pleasure (even though it wasmfor imagined consort).

But, here is what I can speculate from what I know from meditation, and what I have been able to find that looks credible.

You must be mindful of the clear light mind that is all. The big mind.
You must not give into the desire of sexual release.
It may involve the mindful practice of the full kamasutra.
It may involve diety yoga.

It looks a bit like walking on a tightrope to me. For them to release the information would possibly bring the suffering of addiction to those that it is not for.

There are other paths to enlightenment. But if this is one that you want to explore, you should take the advice to go talk to a teacher. If enlightenment is not the goal for you, than neither is this practice.
Post Reply

Return to “Tibetan Buddhism”