China expands new measures to directly control Tibetan monas

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emaho
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Re: China expands new measures to directly control Tibetan m

Post by emaho »

No, you haven't. You've shown it was not a theocracy during its entire history. But at the time the Chinese invaded Tibet, it was ruled by the Dalai Lama and therefore it was a theocracy, wasn't it?
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kirtu
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Re: China expands new measures to directly control Tibetan m

Post by kirtu »

Malcolm wrote:
ReasonAndRhyme wrote: I'd find it much more interesting to hear historical arguments why Tibet was or was not a theocracy.

Been there, done that.
No you said that the majority of Tibet was actually small kingdoms and said nothing about how they were actually governed. Central Tibet was ruled by the 5th Dalai Lama for 50 years but that Gelug rulership fell apart after his death (which is inaccurate, BTW). Sakya was ruled by itself, etc.

You are downplaying the influence that the lamas had over society as a direct and indirect force of organization and leadership. Tibet was very much a kind of theocracy where the aristocracy vied amoungst themselves and with lamas to secure power and to deal with what appears to be near constant incursions over the centuries by Mongols and local Mongol and Chinese groups to directly manipulate and control Tibetan society. The Qiuanlong Emperor eventually put a kind of an end to this chaos and Tibet was significantly directed by Beijing until the time of the 13th Dalai Lama. Something like an objective history has yet to be reported. Even on the Tibetan side their history seems to have been obfuscated.

Kirt
“Where do atomic bombs come from?”
Zen Master Seung Sahn said, “That’s simple. Atomic bombs come from the mind that likes this and doesn’t like that.”

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
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Malcolm
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Re: China expands new measures to directly control Tibetan m

Post by Malcolm »

kirtu wrote:
No you said that the majority of Tibet was actually small kingdoms and said nothing about how they were actually governed. Central Tibet was ruled by the 5th Dalai Lama for 50 years but that Gelug rulership fell apart after his death (which is inaccurate, BTW).
It's perfectly accurate. Why you don't you look up the period between Desrid's assassination and the kidnapping of the sixth, and the the ascension of the 7th? Tell me who ruled Tibetan during this period.

Tibet was very much a kind of theocracy where the aristocracy vied amoungst themselves and with lamas to secure power...
Sounds very much like Medieval Europe, but no one calls this a "theocracy":

Europe was very much a kind of theocracy where the aristocracy vied amoungst themselves and with clergy to secure power...
odysseus
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Re: China expands new measures to directly control Tibetan m

Post by odysseus »

kirtu wrote: Tibet was very much a kind of theocracy where the aristocracy vied amoungst themselves and with lamas to secure power and to deal with what appears to be near constant incursions over the centuries by Mongols and local Mongol and Chinese groups to directly manipulate and control Tibetan society. The Qiuanlong Emperor eventually put a kind of an end to this chaos and Tibet was significantly directed by Beijing until the time of the 13th Dalai Lama. Something like an objective history has yet to be reported.
Kirt
Tibet was as free as Western democracy can do it. Filter your sources better and stop slandering with superstitious rumors.
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JKhedrup
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Re: China expands new measures to directly control Tibetan m

Post by JKhedrup »

Also, let us not forget that the post-Industrial Revolution, capitalist system of the West, while perhaps "democratic", has led to an unsustainable strain on the earth's resources and a pollution crisis that is destroying the planet.
Malcolm
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Re: China expands new measures to directly control Tibetan m

Post by Malcolm »

JKhedrup wrote:Also, let us not forget that the post-Industrial Revolution, capitalist system of the West, while perhaps "democratic", has led to an unsustainable strain on the earth's resources and a pollution crisis that is destroying the planet.
If this is the case, then the "West" is the whole world.

In fact everybody on the whole planet has bought in industrialization. The West coast of the US and Canada experiences the pollution from China's factories.

Quite frankly, there are no players who do not participate willing in the Global economy. I know it is fun to point fingers at the US, but in reality, the environmental degradation we are experiencing was caused by all countries who industrialized.

This East/West thing is really misguided — ya'll need to read Edward Said.
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dzogchungpa
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Re: China expands new measures to directly control Tibetan m

Post by dzogchungpa »

Malcolm wrote:... ya'll need to read Edward Said.
What did Edward say?

:smile:
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kirtu
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Re: China expands new measures to directly control Tibetan m

Post by kirtu »

Malcolm wrote:
kirtu wrote:
No you said that the majority of Tibet was actually small kingdoms and said nothing about how they were actually governed. Central Tibet was ruled by the 5th Dalai Lama for 50 years but that Gelug rulership fell apart after his death (which is inaccurate, BTW).
It's perfectly accurate. Why you don't you look up the period between Desrid's assassination and the kidnapping of the sixth, and the the ascension of the 7th? Tell me who ruled Tibetan during this period.
Your characterization of the brief rein of the 5th Dalai Lama is correct. The rest was an obfuscation. Although a specific Mongol group reinvaded and disposed the 6th Dalai Lama, it appears that the Gelugs were more or less in charge of Central Tibet at least through the beginning of the rule of the 13th Dalai Lama. This was enforced at least nominally from Beijing.

Tibet was very much a kind of theocracy where the aristocracy vied amoungst themselves and with lamas to secure power...
Sounds very much like Medieval Europe, but no one calls this a "theocracy":

Europe was very much a kind of theocracy where the aristocracy vied amoungst themselves and with clergy to secure power...
Yes, people do. Europe was characterized as having heavy theocratic influence at least until the French Revolution. The period 1789-1848 was this inflection point in Western and Central Europe.

Kirt
Last edited by kirtu on Sat May 24, 2014 8:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“Where do atomic bombs come from?”
Zen Master Seung Sahn said, “That’s simple. Atomic bombs come from the mind that likes this and doesn’t like that.”

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche
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kirtu
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Re: China expands new measures to directly control Tibetan m

Post by kirtu »

odysseus wrote:
kirtu wrote: Tibet was very much a kind of theocracy where the aristocracy vied amoungst themselves and with lamas to secure power and to deal with what appears to be near constant incursions over the centuries by Mongols and local Mongol and Chinese groups to directly manipulate and control Tibetan society. The Qiuanlong Emperor eventually put a kind of an end to this chaos and Tibet was significantly directed by Beijing until the time of the 13th Dalai Lama. Something like an objective history has yet to be reported.
Kirt
Bullshit! Tibet was as free as Western democracy can do it.
That's impossible to support. Please provide sources (or reasoning) for this assertion.

Kirt
“Where do atomic bombs come from?”
Zen Master Seung Sahn said, “That’s simple. Atomic bombs come from the mind that likes this and doesn’t like that.”

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche
odysseus
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Re: China expands new measures to directly control Tibetan m

Post by odysseus »

kirtu wrote:
odysseus wrote:
kirtu wrote: Tibet was very much a kind of theocracy where the aristocracy vied amoungst themselves and with lamas to secure power and to deal with what appears to be near constant incursions over the centuries by Mongols and local Mongol and Chinese groups to directly manipulate and control Tibetan society. The Qiuanlong Emperor eventually put a kind of an end to this chaos and Tibet was significantly directed by Beijing until the time of the 13th Dalai Lama. Something like an objective history has yet to be reported.
Kirt
Tibet was as free as Western democracy can do it.
That's impossible to support. Please provide sources (or reasoning) for this assertion.

Kirt
Always confer with your local bodhisattva. Use the only 200 years of info to deduct what happened. It´s bigger than you think.

http://www.amazon.com/The-Snow-Lion-Dra ... ion+dragon" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Luke
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Re: China expands new measures to directly control Tibetan m

Post by Luke »

Sherab Dorje wrote:
Luke wrote:Yes, I agree that Tibetans should be free to do what they want with their lives and should have the autonomy which the Dalai Lama has been campaigning for all these years, etc. But given the present very difficult situation in Tibet, would Tibetans have a bit more power and influence in Tibet if they were greater in numbers?
Like, if the 1,000,000 Tibetans that were killed since the occupation rose from the dead?
That would certainly be cool, but what I really meant was "What would happen if Tibetans in Tibet started to have a lot more children?"
Malcolm
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Re: China expands new measures to directly control Tibetan m

Post by Malcolm »

kirtu wrote:
Your characterization of the brief rein of the 5th Dalai Lama is correct. The rest was an obfuscation. Although a specific Mongol group reinvaded and disposed the 6th Dalai Lama, it appears that the Gelugs were more or less in charge of Central Tibet at least through the beginning of the rule of the 13th Dalai Lama. This was enforced at least nominally from Beijing.
No that is not correct. There were two separate secular regimes over a period of 40 or so years, before the 7th was installed.

Yes, people do. Europe was characterized as having heavy theocratic influence at least until the French Revolution. The period 1789-1848 was this inflection point in Western and Central Europe.
No one refers to Europe as a THEOCRACY during the middle ages. No one. I defy you find even one serious historian that labels Medieval Europe so.
uan
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Re: China expands new measures to directly control Tibetan m

Post by uan »

Malcolm wrote: No one refers to Europe as a THEOCRACY during the middle ages. No one. I defy you find even one serious historian that labels Medieval Europe so.
I defy you to find even one serious historian that labels Medieval Europe as a single country. If you're going to parse Tibetan history into geographical regions and sub kingdoms and timeframes measured in decades, etc. have the intellectual consistency to bring that same level of precision to European history, medieval or otherwise.

We've gone well beyond comparing apples to oranges here, it's more like comparing a bushel of apples to a plastic bag.
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kirtu
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Re: China expands new measures to directly control Tibetan m

Post by kirtu »

Malcolm wrote:
kirtu wrote:
Your characterization of the brief rein of the 5th Dalai Lama is correct. The rest was an obfuscation. Although a specific Mongol group reinvaded and disposed the 6th Dalai Lama, it appears that the Gelugs were more or less in charge of Central Tibet at least through the beginning of the rule of the 13th Dalai Lama. This was enforced at least nominally from Beijing.
No that is not correct. There were two separate secular regimes over a period of 40 or so years, before the 7th was installed.
Then by your admission, Central Tibet was some ruled in some way by the Gelug during the time of the 5th Dalai Lama to the 6th, then there was a 40 year period (this would overlap with the life of the 6th and the 7th), then from some point during the life of the 7th the Gelug rule again in some form up to the 13th. Is that correct?


Yes, people do. Europe was characterized as having heavy theocratic influence at least until the French Revolution. The period 1789-1848 was this inflection point in Western and Central Europe.
No one refers to Europe as a THEOCRACY during the middle ages. No one. I defy you find even one serious historian that labels Medieval Europe so.
[/quote]

The Middle Ages in Europe is in fact characterized as having had significant influence on the "secular" state. We have the Crusades from England, the Inquisition, the Catholic Pope dividing up the New World, making peace treaties, , adding to debates between monarchs, etc. Their influence was significant. It reshaped several countries, England being one of them (the easiest example being Henry VIII). Individuals countries may not have been theocracies themselves (ignoring the fact that countries was we now conceive of them did not emerge until the early mid-1500's to late 1600's, England being a possible exception fairly early) but ecclesiastical offices exerted major influence on every level of society.

Kirt
“Where do atomic bombs come from?”
Zen Master Seung Sahn said, “That’s simple. Atomic bombs come from the mind that likes this and doesn’t like that.”

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche
Malcolm
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Re: China expands new measures to directly control Tibetan m

Post by Malcolm »

uan wrote:
Malcolm wrote: No one refers to Europe as a THEOCRACY during the middle ages. No one. I defy you find even one serious historian that labels Medieval Europe so.
I defy you to find even one serious historian that labels Medieval Europe as a single country.
That my friend, is my entire point. Tibet was never "Tibet", Tibet is Ü, Tsang, Ngari Korsum [Formerly known as Zhang Zhung], Guge, Amdo, Chamdo, Kham, Nangchen, Golog, Nyarong, Gyalmo Rong, Lhodrag, Kongpö, Pö, and a plethora of other small kingdoms and regions like Mustang, Lhadak, Dolpo, Jyathang and so on, with huge ethnic diversity — for example, the people in Gyalrong speak a language that is not even Tibetan, though they are Tibetan Buddhists. You are talking about a vast region, historically tied together by religion rather than ethnic identity, much like Medieval Europe.
Malcolm
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Re: China expands new measures to directly control Tibetan m

Post by Malcolm »

kirtu wrote:
Then by your admission, Central Tibet was some ruled in some way by the Gelug during the time of the 5th Dalai Lama to the 6th, then there was a 40 year period (this would overlap with the life of the 6th and the 7th), then from some point during the life of the 7th the Gelug rule again in some form up to the 13th. Is that correct?
I was very precise. The government established by the Fifth collapsed when when Lozang Khan invaded, and Desid Sangye Gyatso was assassinated by Lozang Khan's wife (a former mistress of his) in 1705 (I said 1704, but oh well). The Desid never allowed the Sixth to rule.

Central Tibet remained without any effective government at all, apart from warlords, until Pho lha nas, an aristocrat from Tsang, ruled Tibet from 1727-1748 with Qing backing.

The seventh was installed by the Qianglong emperor in 1751. The Kashag itself was a creation was a creation of the Qianglong emperor.

Please get your facts straight, Kirt. I expect better from you. The Central Tibetans were ruled by the Qing, so they could not be a theocracy either.
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kirtu
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Re: China expands new measures to directly control Tibetan m

Post by kirtu »

uan wrote: If you're going to parse Tibet into geographical regions and sub kingdoms and timeframes measured in decades, etc.
This is the problem - we do not have an authoritative overall picture of Tibetan history. Most of us have an okay history of various lineages and that is it. Perhaps Goldstein fills in all the blank spaces but I have not had time to read that. People who do already have the information should post that. Otherwise we have a fragmented picture beginning with the Yarlung Dynasty, Imperial Tibet, chaos, Gelug Rule 1650-1950. This still doesn't provide a social context through. The kind of poor history available is so unreliable to permit the PRC to made the most outlandish statements through the ridiculous assertion that Tibet was as democratic as Western Europe (presumably after 1945 when they became democratic except for Portugal and Spain).

Well looky here. We need something like this.


Kirt
“Where do atomic bombs come from?”
Zen Master Seung Sahn said, “That’s simple. Atomic bombs come from the mind that likes this and doesn’t like that.”

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche
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kirtu
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Re: China expands new measures to directly control Tibetan m

Post by kirtu »

Malcolm wrote: That my friend, is my entire point. Tibet was never "Tibet",
Now we're getting somewhere ....
Tibet is Ü, Tsang, Ngari Korsum [Formerly known as Zhang Zhung], Guge, Amdo, Chamdo, Kham, Nangchen, Golog, Nyarong, Gyalmo Rong, Lhodrag, Kongpö, Pö, and a plethora of other small kingdoms and regions like Mustang, Lhadak, Dolpo, Jyathang and so on, with huge ethnic diversity — for example, the people in Gyalrong speak a language that is not even Tibetan, though they are Tibetan Buddhists.
I've never seen a map of what Tibet actually was. This is also the first time ever that I have seen all the regions laid out at one time.

The point that the Tibetans are /were a people unified to some extent by religion rather than another sense of identity has been made in more recent times. But the first time I saw that assertion was in Tulku Urygen's "Blazing Splendor".

I await a map of Tibet with it's former kingdoms and regions, etc.

Not that it will really matter. The PRC crushed them and leave us to debate whether they were a theocracy in some form and to try to parse out the flow of power now long dead.

Kirt
“Where do atomic bombs come from?”
Zen Master Seung Sahn said, “That’s simple. Atomic bombs come from the mind that likes this and doesn’t like that.”

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche
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kirtu
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Re: China expands new measures to directly control Tibetan m

Post by kirtu »

Malcolm wrote: The seventh was installed by the Qianglong emperor in 1751. The Kashag itself was a creation was a creation of the Qianglong emperor.

Please get your facts straight, Kirt. I expect better from you. The Central Tibetans were ruled by the Qing, so they could not be a theocracy either.
The Tibetans claim that there were in effective control after the 7th Dalai Lama at some point so that would make U and Tsang theocracies of some kind being rules from the Potala.

And certainly that would have been the case after the collapse of the Qing until the PRC invasion.

The Kashag was manned by aristocrats. Did it have some form of representation for the people or for other sections of the population?

Kirt
“Where do atomic bombs come from?”
Zen Master Seung Sahn said, “That’s simple. Atomic bombs come from the mind that likes this and doesn’t like that.”

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche
uan
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Re: China expands new measures to directly control Tibetan m

Post by uan »

Malcolm wrote:
That my friend, is my entire point. Tibet was never "Tibet", Tibet is Ü, Tsang, Ngari Korsum [Formerly known as Zhang Zhung], Guge, Amdo, Chamdo, Kham, Nangchen, Golog, Nyarong, Gyalmo Rong, Lhodrag, Kongpö, Pö, and a plethora of other small kingdoms and regions like Mustang, Lhadak, Dolpo, Jyathang and so on, with huge ethnic diversity — for example, the people in Gyalrong speak a language that is not even Tibetan, though they are Tibetan Buddhists. You are talking about a vast region, historically tied together by religion rather than ethnic identity, much like Medieval Europe.
Yet today we commonly refer to Tibet as a singular entity that encompasses all these regions and kingdoms. Does this singular Tibet exists today in actuality, and if so, from how far back would that be? Would it be in 1913 when the 13th DL returned to Lhasa and declared independence from China, since the 1950 invasion by the PRC or would it have been after the current DL left Tibet and created his government in exile? Or at some other point? Thanks for the clarification.
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