Tarot as divination tool

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Motova
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Re: Tarot as divination tool

Post by Motova »

Karma Dorje wrote:
Mipham's dice divination practice published as Mo: Tibetan Divination System does not require empowerment or retreat:

http://books.google.ca/books/about/Mo.h ... edir_esc=y" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The results are quite precise, including what practices one should do in the event of problems. This level of detail is not possible with Tarot.
I have this book! Are you saying I can practice Mo using this book with absolutely no guidance? If so, where is this information coming from?
To become a rain man one must master the ten virtues and sciences.
Malcolm
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Re: Tarot as divination tool

Post by Malcolm »

Motova wrote:
Karma Dorje wrote:
Mipham's dice divination practice published as Mo: Tibetan Divination System does not require empowerment or retreat:

http://books.google.ca/books/about/Mo.h ... edir_esc=y" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The results are quite precise, including what practices one should do in the event of problems. This level of detail is not possible with Tarot.
I have this book! Are you saying I can practice Mo using this book with absolutely no guidance? If so, where is this information coming from?
You need to do the retreat.
Motova
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Re: Tarot as divination tool

Post by Motova »

Malcolm wrote:
Motova wrote:
Karma Dorje wrote:
Mipham's dice divination practice published as Mo: Tibetan Divination System does not require empowerment or retreat:

http://books.google.ca/books/about/Mo.h ... edir_esc=y" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The results are quite precise, including what practices one should do in the event of problems. This level of detail is not possible with Tarot.
I have this book! Are you saying I can practice Mo using this book with absolutely no guidance? If so, where is this information coming from?
You need to do the retreat.
How long is it and what does it entail?
To become a rain man one must master the ten virtues and sciences.
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Karma Dorje
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Re: Tarot as divination tool

Post by Karma Dorje »

Malcolm wrote: You need to do the retreat.
My guru did not specify this, nor is it specified in the instructions in the translation. The mantras used are from sutra. Is the requirement for a retreat specified at a point in the text which is not translated?
"Although my view is higher than the sky, My respect for the cause and effect of actions is as fine as grains of flour."
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Kunga
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Re: Tarot as divination tool

Post by Kunga »

A lama once told me it's expected that one completes ngondro and Three Roots retreats (though people have different abilities) before learning divination, so that one has developed some clarity and stability. Otherwise, as he said, one is "just playing with dice".
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Virgo
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Re: Tarot as divination tool

Post by Virgo »

Using tarot is not a Buddhist method and it doesn't need to be Buddhist, nor do we need to make it one. Does a Buddhist need to stop using tarot? No more than they need to stop eating Italian food, or doing anything else. Many Buddhists are too hard on themselves about things like this.

It's just a method for divination.

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Konchog1
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Re: Tarot as divination tool

Post by Konchog1 »

Karma Dorje wrote:Mipham's dice divination practice published as Mo: Tibetan Divination System does not require empowerment or retreat:

http://books.google.ca/books/about/Mo.h ... edir_esc=y" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Anyone know if the Manjushri mantra dice are still available somewhere now that Snow Lion is no more?...
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"All memories and thoughts are the union of emptiness and knowing, the Mind.
Without attachment, self-liberating, like a snake in a knot.
Through the qualities of meditating in that way,
Mental obscurations are purified and the dharmakaya is attained."

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emptydreams
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Re: Tarot as divination tool

Post by emptydreams »

ngodrup wrote:So Buddhists should never read worldly books such as
biographies of influential people, real crime stories,
politics, business... ?

Frankly, I read quite a lot of biographies and find people
like Presidents Lyndon Johnson and Richard Nixon just
as interesting as 'more edifying' lives like Milarepa.

Is there no value in seeing the minutia of samsara?

That view is upheld by most Buddhist fundies. A certain 20th century famous gelug lama once said that even learning calligraphy and sanskrit for monks is a waste of time as it does not contribute to Buddhist practice or enlightenment. He even used the example that Buton Rinpoche did not achieve enlightenment because he was too engrossed in using special styluses given by King Pehar (as quoted from Liberation in the **** of your ****) I certainly do not want to go back to that road, so it is best to not go down that road. I would stick to the more inclusive masters and a less fundamental view that is way more practical.

Whatever works along the way, i find that there is no harm in using as long as it is in moderation or with approval from one's Lama.
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Karma Dorje
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Re: Tarot as divination tool

Post by Karma Dorje »

Konchog1 wrote:
Karma Dorje wrote:Mipham's dice divination practice published as Mo: Tibetan Divination System does not require empowerment or retreat:

http://books.google.ca/books/about/Mo.h ... edir_esc=y" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Anyone know if the Manjushri mantra dice are still available somewhere now that Snow Lion is no more?...
No but one can simply use six-sided dice with 6 representing AH and counting to 1 which is DHI.
"Although my view is higher than the sky, My respect for the cause and effect of actions is as fine as grains of flour."
-Padmasambhava
emptydreams
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Re: Tarot as divination tool

Post by emptydreams »

Karma Dorje wrote:
Mipham's dice divination practice published as Mo: Tibetan Divination System does not require empowerment or retreat:

http://books.google.ca/books/about/Mo.h ... edir_esc=y" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The results are quite precise, including what practices one should do in the event of problems. This level of detail is not possible with Tarot.
Now you have my attention. I would prefer dice but it is somewhat inaccessible.

Karma Dorje wrote: Then why not use divination dice? I am not going to use bell and damaru to do a Lesser Banishing Ritual, why would I use Tarot to do Buddhist divination? Unless you can see Manjusri or Dorje Yudronma, one relies on "unseen beings to guide" Mo divination. The only difference is which being one relies on, and how developed their wisdom is.
Divination dice was first used by Bon before Buddhists adopted it. There is also tea leaf divination, Robe fold divnation and tsampa ball divination.

I would but was told to get the necessary empowerments and lung, something that is out of my reach. I am not too keen on doing divinations myself but it is merely a, uh, gift, that i need to find a proper way to harness. I cant walk up to a lama and say "hey listen, i think i can tell the future! what advice do you have for me?!". They'll probably tell me to take my meds.

Before dice there were oracle bones, the concept of divination still remains but the tools evolved. If tarot is more suited for me, then why would i still need dice? its just another form of the dice....

Karma Dorje wrote: The mo practices that are done by Tibetan Buddhists are from the visionary experience of realized masters. They rely upon the deities such as Manjusri and Dorje Yudronma that revealed them. They most certainly did not evolve. I am not sure why you speculate that these are Bon practices.
[\quote]

It is a historical fact that dice divination was first used by Bon, later adapted into Buddhist versions that rely on Manjushri and other Buddhas completely as opposed to worldly deities. Same tool and technique, just slightly different concept.
Karma Dorje wrote: This is posted in the Tibetan Buddhism forum. There is no view in Tibetan Buddhism that divination is a waste of time. In fact, divination is used extensively to work with circumstances. The traditional methods are widely disseminated, simple to perform and extremely accurate.

A certain Pa***kha Rinpoche of Gelug said it outright that divination is a waste of time, i was wondering if there were other Lamas with similar views.
Karma Dorje wrote: I would say largely not accepted because of not having a definite lineage from an enlightened being. Again this is not a comment on Tarot or its role within the tradition that produced it. I am just suggesting that it is better to not mix things up as they each have their own logic and beings which guide them. In general it is better to rely on the guidance of realized beings and the blessing of the Buddhas than one's own intuition.
I see. That does make sense. Which is why I am asking if it is possible to invoke the blessings of the Buddhas into tarot rather than just my intuition alone or to bless/initialize my own intuition to be that of a Buddha's? The most challenging part is asking a Lama on this. It's really not possible to ask in person and being really awkward about it.

i would post this question here, but would never, ever ask a lama in real life. In fact i dont even talk about this in real life. I keep this a secret from those around me.
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Karma Dorje
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Re: Tarot as divination tool

Post by Karma Dorje »

emptydreams wrote: It is a historical fact that dice divination was first used by Bon, later adapted into Buddhist versions that rely on Manjushri and other Buddhas completely as opposed to worldly deities. Same tool and technique, just slightly different concept.
An "historical fact" is a contradiction in terms. It is simply speculation that dice divination was used by Bon first. The practices of divination that have been revealed to various realized masters were not adaptations, they were visionary experiences. In any case, Bon does not rely strictly on worldly deities any more than Buddhism does.
Karma Dorje wrote: A certain Pa***kha Rinpoche of Gelug said it outright that divination is a waste of time, i was wondering if there were other Lamas with similar views.
I don't think you will many on this forum that place much faith in Pabongka's pronouncements on anything. His sectarianism and aggression are well known.
Karma Dorje wrote: I see. That does make sense. Which is why I am asking if it is possible to invoke the blessings of the Buddhas into tarot rather than just my intuition alone or to bless/initialize my own intuition to be that of a Buddha's? The most challenging part is asking a Lama on this. It's really not possible to ask in person and being really awkward about it.

i would post this question here, but would never, ever ask a lama in real life. In fact i dont even talk about this in real life. I keep this a secret from those around me.
If you are attached to this tool and you think it provides the answers you need, then why do you need to put a Buddhist seal of approval on it? If it matters for you to have a Buddhist divination method, it's not so difficult to receive lung for a divination method using dice. Chogyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche typically gives the lung for his method along with the other secondary practices during his retreats which are webcast and largely open to anyone with interest. The next retreat is coming up next week:

http://www.dzogchen.it/ai1ec_event/chan ... nce_id=563" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The method is detailed in this book:

http://www.shangshungstore.org/index.ph ... tail&p=495" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"Although my view is higher than the sky, My respect for the cause and effect of actions is as fine as grains of flour."
-Padmasambhava
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Kelwin
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Re: Tarot as divination tool

Post by Kelwin »

emptydreams wrote:I cant walk up to a lama and say "hey listen, i think i can tell the future! what advice do you have for me?!". They'll probably tell me to take my meds.
I think you are confusing lamas with psychiatrists here :smile: That is exactly the question you should ask a lama. Many will have great advice on the topic. At the same time, they might of course see through any ego involved in the topic.
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sherabpa
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Re: Tarot as divination tool

Post by sherabpa »

Malcolm wrote:There is a good bio of him called Perdurabo, which makes no attempt to whitewash his career or person at all.
I recently read this book. Crowley was certainly interesting, and highly intelligent, but hardly a genius. His principle original contribution to the world is Thelema, a system in which Crowley himself intended to be the central figure in a new religion to replace all existing ones. All of his significant magical experiences were accompanied by heavy use of stimulants. Almost all of his projects failed in their primary purpose - to make money, but many were very successful in their secondary purpose - to get laid. He seems to have had some secret service involvement during the war but, as is recorded in Perdurabo, a later attempt by Crowley to be involved in espionage work was declined.

Probably the more important than the remnants of his magical system is the influential effect he had on the 1960's counterculture in terms of a precedent for the general rejection of traditional religion and embracing of new spiritual practices.

Crowley's interest in Buddhism was fleeting. Most of what he knew he learned from Allan Bennett, a much more important figure in the formation of Buddhism in the West.

In terms of Tarot, he was an authority, of course, though the philosopher Michael Dummett is probably the leading living expert and has published much on the subject.
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Vajrasvapna
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Re: Tarot as divination tool

Post by Vajrasvapna »

Malcolm wrote:
Vajrasvapna wrote: It is very difficult to understand how a Buddhist might recommend something from a black magician, known for the practice of animal sacrifice.

In general I think Tarot and WET is a waste of time for Buddhists.

AC was not a "black magician". He may have on one or two occasions experimented with animal sacrifice (a practice he in general abjured).

In fact, he was on of the few westerners in his day who had any real understanding of Buddhism.
I found this quote from Crowley and remembered this topic, I hope it is enough to dispel any Buddhist from Aleister Crowley's darkness:
"This book [The Sword of Song] has been boycotted by English publishers and printers. I am in arms against a world, but after five years of folly and weakness, miscalled politeness, tact, discretion, care for the feeling of others, I am weary of it. Did Christ mince his words with the Pharisees? I say today to hell with Christianity, rationalism, Buddhism, all the lumber of the centuries. I bring you a positive and primaeval fact, magic by name; and with this I will build me a new Heaven and a new Earth. I want none of your faint approval or faint dispraise; I want blasphemy, murder, rape, revolution, anything, bad or good, but strong[he was clearly a devil of dualism in human form]. I want men behind me, or before me if they can surpass me, but men, men not gentlemen. Bring me your personal vigour; all of it, not your spare vigour. Bring me all the money you have or can force from others. If I can get but seven such men, the world is at my feet. If ten, Heaven will fall at the sound of one trumpet to arms."

— Aleister Crowley to Gerald Kelly, via letter dated Oct 31 1905, quoted in Kaczynski's Perdurabo, p 151
"People these days use whatever little dharma they know to augment afflictive emotion, and then engender tremendous pride and conceit over it. They teach the Dharma without taming their own minds. But as with a river rock , not even a hair’s tip of benefit penetrates the other people. Even worse, incorrigible people [are attracted] to this dharma that increases conflict. When individuals who could be tamed by the Dharma encounter such incorrigible, their desire for the sacred Dharma is lost. It is not the fault of the Dharma; it is the fault of individuals." Machik Labdron prophecy.
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Re: Tarot as divination tool

Post by Karma Dorje »

Vajrasvapna wrote: I found this quote from Crowley and remembered this topic, I hope it is enough to dispel any Buddhist from Aleister Crowley's darkness:
"This book [The Sword of Song] has been boycotted by English publishers and printers. I am in arms against a world, but after five years of folly and weakness, miscalled politeness, tact, discretion, care for the feeling of others, I am weary of it. Did Christ mince his words with the Pharisees? I say today to hell with Christianity, rationalism, Buddhism, all the lumber of the centuries. I bring you a positive and primaeval fact, magic by name; and with this I will build me a new Heaven and a new Earth. I want none of your faint approval or faint dispraise; I want blasphemy, murder, rape, revolution, anything, bad or good, but strong[he was clearly a devil of dualism in human form]. I want men behind me, or before me if they can surpass me, but men, men not gentlemen. Bring me your personal vigour; all of it, not your spare vigour. Bring me all the money you have or can force from others. If I can get but seven such men, the world is at my feet. If ten, Heaven will fall at the sound of one trumpet to arms."

— Aleister Crowley to Gerald Kelly, via letter dated Oct 31 1905, quoted in Kaczynski's Perdurabo, p 151
You notice the date, right? At 30, just after receiving Liber Legis. The sentiment in this is not so different than that of Ra-Hoor-Khuit which he was greatly inspired by. It was a rejection of the tepid and safe Victorian culture and cultural forms in general. As he was wont, he wrote in hyperbolic flourishes. It's little different than Trungpa railing against "lukewarmness".

You clearly know nothing about Crowley or his life, so why persist in demonstrating your ignorance? The only darkness to Crowley was that he was obscure, not that he was evil.
"Although my view is higher than the sky, My respect for the cause and effect of actions is as fine as grains of flour."
-Padmasambhava
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Vajrasvapna
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Re: Tarot as divination tool

Post by Vajrasvapna »

Karma Dorje wrote:
Vajrasvapna wrote: I found this quote from Crowley and remembered this topic, I hope it is enough to dispel any Buddhist from Aleister Crowley's darkness:
"This book [The Sword of Song] has been boycotted by English publishers and printers. I am in arms against a world, but after five years of folly and weakness, miscalled politeness, tact, discretion, care for the feeling of others, I am weary of it. Did Christ mince his words with the Pharisees? I say today to hell with Christianity, rationalism, Buddhism, all the lumber of the centuries. I bring you a positive and primaeval fact, magic by name; and with this I will build me a new Heaven and a new Earth. I want none of your faint approval or faint dispraise; I want blasphemy, murder, rape, revolution, anything, bad or good, but strong[he was clearly a devil of dualism in human form]. I want men behind me, or before me if they can surpass me, but men, men not gentlemen. Bring me your personal vigour; all of it, not your spare vigour. Bring me all the money you have or can force from others. If I can get but seven such men, the world is at my feet. If ten, Heaven will fall at the sound of one trumpet to arms."

— Aleister Crowley to Gerald Kelly, via letter dated Oct 31 1905, quoted in Kaczynski's Perdurabo, p 151
You notice the date, right? At 30, just after receiving Liber Legis. The sentiment in this is not so different than that of Ra-Hoor-Khuit which he was greatly inspired by. It was a rejection of the tepid and safe Victorian culture and cultural forms in general. As he was wont, he wrote in hyperbolic flourishes. It's little different than Trungpa railing against "lukewarmness".
He receives his sacred book, then he demonstrates such ignorance in writing and you're still able to justify it? Did Trungpa supported "blasphemy, murder, rape" also?
You clearly know nothing about Crowley or his life, so why persist in demonstrating your ignorance? The only darkness to Crowley was that he was obscure, not that he was evil.
What to say about a man who tried to have his wife having sex with a male goat and cut his head at the moment of orgasm, without doubt, a profoundly ignorant and sick person: source. May he and his followers be free of suffering and the lower realms.
"People these days use whatever little dharma they know to augment afflictive emotion, and then engender tremendous pride and conceit over it. They teach the Dharma without taming their own minds. But as with a river rock , not even a hair’s tip of benefit penetrates the other people. Even worse, incorrigible people [are attracted] to this dharma that increases conflict. When individuals who could be tamed by the Dharma encounter such incorrigible, their desire for the sacred Dharma is lost. It is not the fault of the Dharma; it is the fault of individuals." Machik Labdron prophecy.
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Re: Tarot as divination tool

Post by Sopa Yutso »

I see. That does make sense. Which is why I am asking if it is possible to invoke the blessings of the Buddhas into tarot rather than just my intuition alone or to bless/initialize my own intuition to be that of a Buddha's? The most challenging part is asking a Lama on this. It's really not possible to ask in person and being really awkward about it.

i would post this question here, but would never, ever ask a lama in real life. In fact i dont even talk about this in real life. I keep this a secret from those around me.[/quote]
I used to read tarot cards professionally and worried that this conflicted with my Buddhist practice. I wanted validation from my lama about this. He said just to do it if I wanted to (my feeling was that I had wasted his time with my question). I continued to read, but still with uncertainty. After a year, I requested another high lama, who is renowned for his Mo divination, to bless my cards. He replied that he was not familiar with this kind of divination, and refused.

I also thought by getting a Manjushri empowerment, it would help me read the cards or Mo better. I do feel the empowerment has helped me to understand dharma, but my divinations haven't improved. If anything, I've become less interested in doing readings. HH Dalai Lama himself has said he doesn't believe in astrology. Time and space are fluid, and cards can be another object of fixation-- and misguidance. If we really devote ourselves to practice, I think it will benefit others infinitely more than using any form of divination.
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Re: Tarot as divination tool

Post by DGA »

Karma Dorje wrote:It was a rejection of the tepid and safe Victorian culture and cultural forms in general.
One characteristic of the constipated Victorian culture under question is its capacity to produce striking repudiations of itself. Think of Middlemarch, Bleak House, or Das Kapital (written in a certain library in London). If you take a broader scope, you can add Nietzsche, Virginia Woolf, and Stravinsky, among many others.

The Victorians (read: the nineteenth-century bourgeoisie) loved to mark the points where the lines of their own comfort zones may be transgressed, mark the pain of those lines, and then imagine ways to transgress them.

To me, Crowley seems like a product of his time, and a lot less imaginative than the company listed above.

Mike Davis, in City of Quartz (a history of Los Angeles), recounts Crowley's participation in a rite intended to bring about the Harlot of the end times, performed in part by none other than a youthful L. Ron Hubbard. If I have time today I'll type it out here, because it's hilarious.
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