Beginningless samsara and the possibility of enlightenment

[jules]

I am having a lot of trouble with this. As I understand it, I have been in samsara forever. But I am not enlightened yet. Yet within an infinite period of time, everything that is possible will happen. Therefore, if I am not enlightenened yet, it seems that I never will be.

I found some material on the Benzin archives on this but it didn't help too much yet. I would very much appreciate some help with this as it is crucial for me develop more confidence in the path. I can ask my teacher but I will not see him until mid October.

Thanks in advance.

[Hieros Gamos]

Sempiternity is not the same thing as eternity.

[Hieros Gamos]

Anyway all experience is a matter of degree. If someone here is going to tell you yes or no what would that matter to you?

[jules]

is this like saying that seemingly infinite time only exists withing the delusion of samsara.... but waking up is outside time?

i don't get your second point. i guess at least to start off with you need to see how enlightenment is possible. maybe that's something which needs to be drooped later but i'm not there yet.

thx

[Hieros Gamos]

see how enlightenment is possible

Or that unenlightenment is impossible. Consciousness finds itself in clear experiencing. The see-saw of faith and wisdom, one in excess the other in deficiency, then vice versa, is just that - consciousness finds itself in clear experiencing. Metaphysics is irrelevant to experience because metaphysics isn't a matter of degree - it wants to hold down the see-saw at one end or the other.

It doesn't matter if I won't physically see my teacher soon. Guru yoga will give me their inspiration now. That's something I can "begin".

[Paul]

I am having a lot of trouble with this. As I understand it, I have been in samsara forever. But I am not enlightened yet. Yet within an infinite period of time, everything that is possible will happen. Therefore, if I am not enlightenened yet, it seems that I never will be.

Think of it in terms of infinite sets, like in Cantor's work. You have to remember that there are infinite sentient beings. Because of that, any amount can be moved from the set of 'sentient beings' to 'buddhas' by becoming enlightened, but there remains an infinite number of beings left in the 'sentient beings' set. Was it possible for some beings to become enlightened? Yes, an limitless amount were. So it not correct to say "if I am not enlightenened yet, it seems that I never will be."

The only thing that causes a being to move from one set to another is effort to become liberated, which you have just not made yet.

[Grigoris]

I am having a lot of trouble with this. As I understand it, I have been in samsara forever. But I am not enlightened yet. Yet within an infinite period of time, everything that is possible will happen. Therefore, if I am not enlightenened yet, it seems that I never will be.

The thing with infinity is that no matter where you are on an infinite time line you always have an infinite amount of time in front of you and an infinite amount of time behind you.

So you still haven't finished with infinity, there is stil an infinite amount of time stretched out before you.

The other thing is that you are overlooking the fact that you are only now aware of your ignorance. If YOU CHOOSE to act now, then there is no reason for you to keep cycling through samsara. If YOU CHOOSE not to act now then you will keep cycling through samsara until you have accrued enough merit to allow you a precious human rebirth.

Unfortunately you cannot stumble onto enlightenment. It requires positive intentional action for the causes and conditions to take shape that will allow you the opportunity to realise enlightenment.

There is no grand scheme driving us all towards enlightenment, nor do we just happen across it by chance.

[Russell]

Yet within an infinite period of time, everything that is possible will happen.

Why? if you choose to always not make the effort to become enlightened you can repeat this as much as you like.

[jules]

alright folks many thanks for that it's much appreciated

[seeker242]

Yet within an infinite period of time, everything that is possible will happen. Therefore, if I am not enlightened yet, it seems that I never will be.

That does not follow! If within an infinite period of time, everything that is possible will happen. If that is actually true, and you have not got it yet, that means you will most definitely get it at some point in the future. That means getting it in the future is inevitable. That means there is zero chance that you won't get it.

But then there is this.

"Now, Kalamas, don't go by reports, by legends, by traditions, by scripture, by logical conjecture, by inference, by analogies, by agreement through pondering views, by probability, or by the thought, 'This contemplative is our teacher.' When you know for yourselves that, 'These qualities are skillful; these qualities are blameless; these qualities are praised by the wise; these qualities, when adopted & carried out, lead to welfare & to happiness' — then you should enter & remain in them.

I would not be so quick to jump to any conclusions based on "logical conjecture, inference or probability".