Kayas
- Hieros Gamos
- Posts: 150
- Joined: Wed Aug 06, 2014 3:25 pm
Kayas
If possible to tell, could anyone clarify what
"sahajakaya"
and
"mahasukha prajnakaya"
signify?
"sahajakaya"
and
"mahasukha prajnakaya"
signify?
Re: Kayas
Sahajakāya is from the Kālacakra tantra, and appears to be related to the Kālacakra interpretation of the svābhāvikakāya.Hieros Gamos wrote:If possible to tell, could anyone clarify what
"sahajakaya"
and
"mahasukha prajnakaya"
signify?
The only thing that came up on the mahāsukhaprajñākāya was a claim by Yogi C.M. Chen that the mahāsukhaprajñākāya is equivalent to the rainbow body [ja lus], although whether that is a substantiated assertion I have no idea. Yogi Chen also appears to claim that a Buddha has five kāya's and named the sahajakāya as the fourth... I'm not sure how much Yogi Chen's writings can be trusted. Perhaps someone else knows?
Sahajakāya is discussed here:
http://books.google.com/books?id=yKrG6Q ... ya&f=false
and here:
http://books.google.com/books?id=i_KOOn ... ya&f=false
- dzogchungpa
- Posts: 6333
- Joined: Sat May 28, 2011 10:50 pm
Re: Kayas
Seems to have something to do with mahasukha.
Last edited by dzogchungpa on Tue Sep 02, 2014 4:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche
Re: Kayas
Sahajakaya is "innate body," the translation Snellgrove gives at p. 245 in Indo-Tibetan Buddhism. Sahaja just means born-with (i.e. not conditioned). Sahajakaya is higher than the main three kayas, and Sahajayana generally is taken to be Tantrayana, which supersedes the Vajrayana, because it involves actual intercourse. Sahajakaya is also secret, because it encompasses deities that reflect the essence of the previous three kayas in one (nirmana, sambhoga, dharma). You may find other names than Sahajakaya too, including mahasukhakaya (great bliss body), and svabhavikakaya (self-existent body). The Mahasukhaprajnakaya that you mention is just another variation on the same kaya, i.e. body of the insight of great bliss. The great bliss of course refers to tantric sexual union. In some monasteries in Nepal, there are four stories representing the four kayas, Mahabuddha Vihara for instance has Sakyamuni Buddha on the ground, Amitabha on the second story, a caitya on the third, and a vajradhatu mandala on the fourth (i.e. Sahajakaya/Mahasukhaprajnakaya).
This is what Asha Kaji Vajracharya writes about Vajrayana and Sahajayana:
This is what Asha Kaji Vajracharya writes about Vajrayana and Sahajayana:
That initiation is the jnanabhiseka (insight consecration), only married (with consort technically) initiants can take part, which also encompasses later initiations. This is of no concern in Tibetan Vajrayana, where they relegate it all to visualisation. But from the Newar perspective (and likely the earlier Indian perspectives), that is less than half the way to full initiation as a Vajracarya. Of course, in Tibetan Buddhism, they will explain it or accommodate it by fitting it into one of their higher-than-Vajrayana systems, e.g. Dzogchen Rainbow Body, Mahamudra, etc. But historically, I am not sure we can say this was what was intended.AKV in Gellner, [i]Monk, householder and Tantric priest[/i] wrote:And on Vajrakuta hill [the Buddha] brought to light Vajrayana. There are two types of Vajrayana. The first is onefold (ekakara): this is for one who does not marry and lives alone. The second is twofold (dvarakara): this is what is known as Tantrayana or Sahajayana, in which a couple (stripurusa) eat from the same plate. It is called Sahajayana because they are united ('samjog juye' [Newar]) and eat each other's polluted food. The practice of Sahaja is Tantric Initiation; that is why those who come to take it on their own are sent away.
Re: Kayas
More like mahaskunka.dzogchungpa wrote:
Seems to have something to do with mahasukha.
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Re: Kayas
What is your source for this statement?Zhen Li wrote:The great bliss of course refers to tantric sexual union.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
- dzogchungpa
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Re: Kayas
I believe Trungpa used to describe mahasukha as "cosmic orgasm".
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche
- conebeckham
- Posts: 5718
- Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2010 11:49 pm
- Location: Bay Area, CA, USA
Re: Kayas
The interepretation that "Tantrayana" is superior to "Vajrayana" is suspect, in my opinion. They're actually equivalent terms.
"Sahaja" is usually translated as "Coemergent." Sahajakaya does mean something very specific in Kalacakratantra. But this isn't really the place to get into a detailed discussion about the "kayas" as explained in any Highest Yoga Tantra.
"Mahasukhaprajnakaya" is an uncommon term, but literally you would translate it as "The Wisdom Body of Great Bliss."
"Great Bliss" does not refer to sexual union, actually, either. Orgasmic bliss is merely a metaphor, or a "finger pointing to the moon," even in those systems where actual Karmamudra (Sexual practices) are engaged in--whether in Tibetan traditions, or Newari, or wherever.
In Highest Yoga Tantra systems, esp. of the Mother Tantra, this is the ultimate identity of the deity--the Wisdom Body of Great Bliss. Bliss/Emptiness is a Unity, in the same way Appearance/Emptiness is a Unity, but the former unity has qualities which are more conducive to experiental realization, for some people.
"Sahaja" is usually translated as "Coemergent." Sahajakaya does mean something very specific in Kalacakratantra. But this isn't really the place to get into a detailed discussion about the "kayas" as explained in any Highest Yoga Tantra.
"Mahasukhaprajnakaya" is an uncommon term, but literally you would translate it as "The Wisdom Body of Great Bliss."
"Great Bliss" does not refer to sexual union, actually, either. Orgasmic bliss is merely a metaphor, or a "finger pointing to the moon," even in those systems where actual Karmamudra (Sexual practices) are engaged in--whether in Tibetan traditions, or Newari, or wherever.
In Highest Yoga Tantra systems, esp. of the Mother Tantra, this is the ultimate identity of the deity--the Wisdom Body of Great Bliss. Bliss/Emptiness is a Unity, in the same way Appearance/Emptiness is a Unity, but the former unity has qualities which are more conducive to experiental realization, for some people.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།
"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།
"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
- dzogchungpa
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Re: Kayas
Wake up and turn I loose ...Mkoll wrote:More like mahaskunka.dzogchungpa wrote:Seems to have something to do with mahasukha.
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche
- Hieros Gamos
- Posts: 150
- Joined: Wed Aug 06, 2014 3:25 pm
Re: Kayas
Thanks all. Is there one reliable source which explains all the different "kayas" outside of the normal three?
- dzogchungpa
- Posts: 6333
- Joined: Sat May 28, 2011 10:50 pm
Re: Kayas
What, Bob isn't reliable?Hieros Gamos wrote:Thanks all. Is there one reliable source which explains all the different "kayas" outside of the normal three?
Anyway, I stumbled on this:
http://www.dharma-friends.org.il/wp-con ... Buddha.pdf
but I have no idea if it's reliable or not.
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche
- conebeckham
- Posts: 5718
- Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2010 11:49 pm
- Location: Bay Area, CA, USA
Re: Kayas
It gets pretty "Tantra Specific," iny my opinion, though there are common generalizations with regard to the normal 3 or 4 Kayas--Dharma, Sambhoga, Nirmana, Svabhava....
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།
"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།
"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
- Hieros Gamos
- Posts: 150
- Joined: Wed Aug 06, 2014 3:25 pm
Re: Kayas
T udzogchungpa wrote:What, Bob isn't reliable?Hieros Gamos wrote:Thanks all. Is there one reliable source which explains all the different "kayas" outside of the normal three?
Anyway, I stumbled on this:
http://www.dharma-friends.org.il/wp-con ... Buddha.pdf
but I have no idea if it's reliable or not.
Yes of course more than reliable I just meant there seem to be 5, 6, 7 different "kayas" mentioned in various places some of which mean the same thing, some of which mean different things, it's all very confusing ...
- Hieros Gamos
- Posts: 150
- Joined: Wed Aug 06, 2014 3:25 pm
Re: Kayas
Thats v helpful t udzogchungpa wrote:What, Bob isn't reliable?Hieros Gamos wrote:Thanks all. Is there one reliable source which explains all the different "kayas" outside of the normal three?
Anyway, I stumbled on this:
http://www.dharma-friends.org.il/wp-con ... Buddha.pdf
but I have no idea if it's reliable or not.
- dzogchungpa
- Posts: 6333
- Joined: Sat May 28, 2011 10:50 pm
Re: Kayas
U r v wHieros Gamos wrote:Thats v helpful t u
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche
Re: Kayas
Well, it's nothing to be shocked with. Union is the whole point of Tantra.Sherab Dorje wrote:What is your source for this statement?Zhen Li wrote:The great bliss of course refers to tantric sexual union.
"The first is clarified by a smile, the Secret by a gaze, the Wisdom Consecration by an embrace, and the fourth by union." (Hevajra Tantra, II.iii.2, 4-12)
"Your wife is named Fair Lady of the Joy Innate." (Dasgupta in Conze, Buddhist Texts through the Ages, 231)
"In [sunyata] there is this vision of past and future, it is vast. The purification resulting from it is the Great Bliss which is changeless because of the inviolate Fourth State. Of this bliss it is said 'it arrests,' its mark being compassion, while it is the adamantine state of knowledge. It is truly the Body of the Innate personified as Wisdom and Means [i.e. union] and it is described as Yoga Purified." (Sekoddesatika, ed. Carelli, p. 5, 11.)
There's also the fact that one needs a consort for the sahajabiseka.
The "list of four" is entirely standard in Tantras (e.g. four consecrations, attitudes, Tantra classes, symbols, voids). They're equivalent in that Sahaja expresses the essence of the former three, but:conebeckham wrote:The interepretation that "Tantrayana" is superior to "Vajrayana" is suspect, in my opinion. They're actually equivalent terms.
"Because of its freedom from all three the Innate [Sahaja] is called perfect enlightenment. ... It is born of its own accord by merit and by due attendance on one's guru." (Hevajra Tantra, 1.x.15, 17-18)
There isn't, fundamentally, a significant difference between metaphorical union and ritual union. But, I would agree that it is important (from the Buddhist perspective) to maintain that it should be more than just ritualism, and this is one of the issues with Newar ritual today - parts of the Sadhana have been extracted and set up as individual rituals for worldly benefit (apotropaic), essentially in the same way they are used in Hinduism. Only in the Buddhist Sadhana, is the structure that maintains the inherent emptiness of the ritual, and the requirement that one previously has prior scholarship, mastery of yogic techniques and meditation. However, for instance, the pancopacara pujas and the various ritual implements that originally were all used just for the Sadhana, which is the worship of the deity and consequently meditation on emptiness and transcendence in omniscience. The question as to whether Vajracaryas look at sexual union in such a sophisticated way today is probably impossible to answer since it's a secret practice. But the doctrinal separation of metaphorical union and actual union is a mistake, just like separation of relative and ultimate - it's also a matter of transcending this duality.conebeckham wrote:"Great Bliss" does not refer to sexual union, actually, either. Orgasmic bliss is merely a metaphor, or a "finger pointing to the moon," even in those systems where actual Karmamudra (Sexual practices) are engaged in--whether in Tibetan traditions, or Newari, or wherever.
If you want academically acceptable sources: Snellgrove's Indo-Tibetan Buddhism, or Gellner Monk, householder, and Tantric priest.Hieros Gamos wrote:Thanks all. Is there one reliable source which explains all the different "kayas" outside of the normal three?
- dzogchungpa
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- Joined: Sat May 28, 2011 10:50 pm
Re: Kayas
An interesting chart that has stuff about kayas:
http://www.yogichen.org/cw/cw27/bk012.html
http://www.yogichen.org/cw/cw27/bk012.html
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche
Re: Kayas
Well, if your teacher explained these passages and texts in this way (ie that Great Bliss refers to sexual union), then who am I to question it?Zhen Li wrote:Well, it's nothing to be shocked with. Union is the whole point of Tantra.Sherab Dorje wrote:What is your source for this statement?Zhen Li wrote:The great bliss of course refers to tantric sexual union.
"The first is clarified by a smile, the Secret by a gaze, the Wisdom Consecration by an embrace, and the fourth by union." (Hevajra Tantra, II.iii.2, 4-12)
"Your wife is named Fair Lady of the Joy Innate." (Dasgupta in Conze, Buddhist Texts through the Ages, 231)
"In [sunyata] there is this vision of past and future, it is vast. The purification resulting from it is the Great Bliss which is changeless because of the inviolate Fourth State. Of this bliss it is said 'it arrests,' its mark being compassion, while it is the adamantine state of knowledge. It is truly the Body of the Innate personified as Wisdom and Means [i.e. union] and it is described as Yoga Purified." (Sekoddesatika, ed. Carelli, p. 5, 11.)
There's also the fact that one needs a consort for the sahajabiseka.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
- conebeckham
- Posts: 5718
- Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2010 11:49 pm
- Location: Bay Area, CA, USA
Re: Kayas
Great Bliss does not refer to "Tantric Sexual Union." But I don't want to get into the subject here. I will only say there has been a great deal of good work done in the last 20 -30 years in terms of transmission and translation of tantric materials. When we start talking about any sort of "Bliss," and its relevance to practice, we're entering the Path of Means, and despite the good work of translators since, say, 1970 or so, in clarifying earlier translator's assumptions, and their lack of reliance on qualified gurus to explain the meaning of things, relying on an actual master to obtain the transmission and explanation is the key to understanding the Path of Means.Sherab Dorje wrote:]Well, if your teacher explained these passages and texts in this way (ie that Great Bliss refers to sexual union), then who am I to question it?
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།
"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།
"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
Re: Kayas
Of course not, it refers to nirvana.conebeckham wrote:Great Bliss does not refer to "Tantric Sexual Union." .Sherab Dorje wrote:]Well, if your teacher explained these passages and texts in this way (ie that Great Bliss refers to sexual union), then who am I to question it?