Book recommendations about rebirth, reincarnation

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Punya
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Book recommendations about rebirth, reincarnation

Post by Punya »

I'd like some book recommendations for the Madhyamaka Prasangika explanation of rebirth, reincarnation or whatever the correct term is. I am thinking this would include a discussion of what mind is and how it passes from life to life. I've got a rough idea but I want to be able to understand it so thoroughly that I could explain it to someone else.
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Ayu
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Re: Book recommendations about rebirth, reincarnation

Post by Ayu »

Punya wrote:.... I want to be able to understand it so thoroughly that I could explain it to someone else.
For this ambitious aim it may be the best to read and meditate the original sources from Nagarjuna.
Maybe you can find some English literature in this list:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nagarjuna#Sources" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Paul
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Re: Book recommendations about rebirth, reincarnation

Post by Paul »

Try Mipham Rinpoche's Gateway To Knowledge. I recently did a course on dependent origination with that as the text we studied and it seems to be close to what you want.
Look at the unfathomable spinelessness of man: all the means he's been given to stay alert he uses, in the end, to ornament his sleep. – Rene Daumal
the modern mind has become so limited and single-visioned that it has lost touch with normal perception - John Michell
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Aemilius
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Re: Book recommendations about rebirth, reincarnation

Post by Aemilius »

Punya wrote:I'd like some book recommendations for the Madhyamaka Prasangika explanation of rebirth, reincarnation or whatever the correct term is. I am thinking this would include a discussion of what mind is and how it passes from life to life. I've got a rough idea but I want to be able to understand it so thoroughly that I could explain it to someone else.
What do you want exactly as Madhyamaka denies the (absolute) validity of rebirth?
Aryadeva says something about rebirth in 400 Stanzas on the Middle Way. If I right remember Aryadeva says that rebirth is merely imputed on the skandhas (??)
There is also a translation of 400 Stanzas with Candrakirti's commentary titled: Four Illusions: Candrakirti's Advice for Travelers on the Bodhisattva Path
svaha
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They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
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Punya
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Re: Book recommendations about rebirth, reincarnation

Post by Punya »

What do you want exactly as Madhyamaka denies the (absolute) validity of rebirth? 
I don't think I have enough knowledge to answer this question Aemilius although I can see your point. Yes, an ambitious project but I can only make a start. Thank you for all of your recommendations, I will check them out. I'd welcome any other suggestions too.

I don't suppose the course you did was online Paul? And which volume of the Gateway to Knowledge did you study?
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Paul
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Re: Book recommendations about rebirth, reincarnation

Post by Paul »

No, I studied it in person with a lama. It was based on volume 1, chapter 4.

In general I would recommend learning abhidharma as well as possible. It's basically the same for nearly all of Buddhism when in comes to subjects like this. It provides a basis for then understanding tantra and dzogchen.
Look at the unfathomable spinelessness of man: all the means he's been given to stay alert he uses, in the end, to ornament his sleep. – Rene Daumal
the modern mind has become so limited and single-visioned that it has lost touch with normal perception - John Michell
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Ayu
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Re: Book recommendations about rebirth, reincarnation

Post by Ayu »

Punya wrote:... Yes, an ambitious project but I can only make a start. ...
Ambitious, but very good.
Maybe reciting some Manjushri mantras in between could be helpful in addition.
Have a good start. :twothumbsup:
Punya
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Re: Book recommendations about rebirth, reincarnation

Post by Punya »

.
Thank you Ayu.
In general I would recommend learning abhidharma as well as possible.
Do you know if the Gateway of Knowledge series covers this as well Paul (it seems like it would) or is there another text you'd recommend?
It's basically the same for nearly all of Buddhism when in comes to subjects like this.
Yes, I don't think I framed my initial question well so maybe I could now change it to ask for any recommendations for books which contain explanations about how consciousness continues from life to life from a Tibetan buddhist perspective that anyone has found particularly helpful.

And also include why these explanations only apply on a relative level but not ultimately.
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Greg
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Re: Book recommendations about rebirth, reincarnation

Post by Greg »

I never felt like I encountered a persuasive explanation of karma & rebirth from a Prasaṅgika perspective. At the level of saṃvrti, karmic seed and ripening separated by lifetimes does not appear. At the level of paramārtha it does not exist. Therefore, like the horns of a rabbit, it must be completely wrong.
Punya
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Re: Book recommendations about rebirth, reincarnation

Post by Punya »

I have to say you've lost me Greg although I have come across the horns of the rabbit idea before.

I spent a far amount of time trawling through book reviews yesterday and I've realised it's a massively bigger task than I thought. Still I did buy a Mipham Rinpoche commentary and expanded my knowledge of the two truths and downloaded the Suzuki translation of the Lankavatara sutra so it can't be all bad. :smile:

The problem is I don't have my whole adult life ahead of me to study and practice continues to be the focus. I'm still open to short cuts if anyone has any.
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Paul
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Re: Book recommendations about rebirth, reincarnation

Post by Paul »

Punya wrote:Do you know if the Gateway of Knowledge series covers this as well Paul (it seems like it would) or is there another text you'd recommend?
I've only read parts of it, but considering it was written by Mipham Rinpoche - one of the three 'omniscient ones' of the Nyingma and is translated by the excellent Erik Pema Kunzang, I'd say it's a completely safe bet.
Yes, I don't think I framed my initial question well so maybe I could now change it to ask for any recommendations for books which contain explanations about how consciousness continues from life to life from a Tibetan buddhist perspective that anyone has found particularly helpful.
Books on the bardos would probably be the most useful for you. Something like this:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Natural-Liberat ... 0861711319" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
And also include why these explanations only apply on a relative level but not ultimately.
Ultimately, it's all empty. There is nothing to migrate and there's no migration either. Of course the exact meaning of emptiness is a great topic in itself.
Look at the unfathomable spinelessness of man: all the means he's been given to stay alert he uses, in the end, to ornament his sleep. – Rene Daumal
the modern mind has become so limited and single-visioned that it has lost touch with normal perception - John Michell
Punya
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Re: Book recommendations about rebirth, reincarnation

Post by Punya »

I've only read parts of it, but considering it was written by Mipham Rinpoche - one of the three 'omniscient ones' of the Nyingma and is translated by the excellent Erik Pema Kunzang, I'd say it's a completely safe bet.
Agreed.
Books on the bardos would probably be the most useful for you. Something like this: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Natural-Liberat ... 0861711319
Thanks Paul. It looks interesting.
Ultimately, it's all empty. There is nothing to migrate and there's no migration either. Of course the exact meaning of emptiness is a great topic in itself.
:reading:
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Malcolm
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Re: Book recommendations about rebirth, reincarnation

Post by Malcolm »

Greg wrote:I never felt like I encountered a persuasive explanation of karma & rebirth from a Prasaṅgika perspective. At the level of saṃvrti, karmic seed and ripening separated by lifetimes does not appear. At the level of paramārtha it does not exist. Therefore, like the horns of a rabbit, it must be completely wrong.
The prasangika perspective on karma is that it is like a debt.

In terms of rebirth, what takes rebirth is the habit of imputing an unreal "I". This habit not only can create karma but can receive its ripening, just as by using the imputation car we can both drive it and crash it.
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Re: Book recommendations about rebirth, reincarnation

Post by lorem »

Malcolm wrote:
Greg wrote:I never felt like I encountered a persuasive explanation of karma & rebirth from a Prasaṅgika perspective. At the level of saṃvrti, karmic seed and ripening separated by lifetimes does not appear. At the level of paramārtha it does not exist. Therefore, like the horns of a rabbit, it must be completely wrong.
The prasangika perspective on karma is that it is like a debt.

In terms of rebirth, what takes rebirth is the habit of imputing an unreal "I". This habit not only can create karma but can receive its ripening, just as by using the imputation car we can both drive it and crash it.
Isn't potential? If you have a debt you probably don't have a car to drive or crash.
I should be meditating.
Malcolm
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Re: Book recommendations about rebirth, reincarnation

Post by Malcolm »

lorem wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Greg wrote:I never felt like I encountered a persuasive explanation of karma & rebirth from a Prasaṅgika perspective. At the level of saṃvrti, karmic seed and ripening separated by lifetimes does not appear. At the level of paramārtha it does not exist. Therefore, like the horns of a rabbit, it must be completely wrong.
The prasangika perspective on karma is that it is like a debt.

In terms of rebirth, what takes rebirth is the habit of imputing an unreal "I". This habit not only can create karma but can receive its ripening, just as by using the imputation car we can both drive it and crash it.
Isn't potential?
Karma is likened to a debt. This is Nagārjuna's preferred relative truth version of karma. Also Candrakirti accepts this.
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lorem
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Re: Book recommendations about rebirth, reincarnation

Post by lorem »

Okay. That makes sense. I'll have to take a look at it but I think in relative potential works. Ultimate would be debt.
I should be meditating.
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lorem
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Re: Book recommendations about rebirth, reincarnation

Post by lorem »

EDIT

Here's a couple that Malcolm pointed out that seem noteworthy.

Nagarjuna: The Philosophy of the Middle Way, David J Kalupahana
Rebirth as Doctrine and Experience, Francis Story
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Greg
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Re: Book recommendations about rebirth, reincarnation

Post by Greg »

Malcolm wrote:
The prasangika perspective on karma is that it is like a debt.

In terms of rebirth, what takes rebirth is the habit of imputing an unreal "I". This habit not only can create karma but can receive its ripening, just as by using the imputation car we can both drive it and crash it.

Karma is likened to a debt. This is Nagārjuna's preferred relative truth version of karma. Also Candrakirti accepts this.
Still, that is just another, alternate metaphor, not an explanation. When it comes to saṃvrti, my understanding is that prasaṅgikas simply accept the conventions of deluded beings as dependently arisen mere appearances. But an action performed by a sentient being in one lifetime, which comes to fruition three lifetimes later, is not something that appears to anyone. So how can it be differentiated from an utter nonexistent like the son of a barren woman? It seems to me like the mechanics of karma and result are unsupportable within a prasaṅgika framework.
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Re: Book recommendations about rebirth, reincarnation

Post by Malcolm »

Greg wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
The prasangika perspective on karma is that it is like a debt.

In terms of rebirth, what takes rebirth is the habit of imputing an unreal "I". This habit not only can create karma but can receive its ripening, just as by using the imputation car we can both drive it and crash it.

Karma is likened to a debt. This is Nagārjuna's preferred relative truth version of karma. Also Candrakirti accepts this.
Still, that is just a another, alternate metaphor, not an explanation. When it comes to saṃvrti, my understanding is that prasaṅgikas simply accept the conventions of deluded beings as dependently arisen mere appearances. But an action performed by a sentient being in one lifetime, which comes to fruition three lifetimes later, is not something that appears to anyone. So how can it be differentiated from an utter nonexistent like the son of a barren woman?
But such karma does appear to someone, i.e, buddha or someone with similar capacity of wisdom. It may not appear to you, but relatively speaking, many things do not appear to your which appear to others of higher or more refined faculties.

The actual dharma in question is called an avipranaśa, an "indestructable".
Greg
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Re: Book recommendations about rebirth, reincarnation

Post by Greg »

Malcolm wrote:
Greg wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
The prasangika perspective on karma is that it is like a debt.

In terms of rebirth, what takes rebirth is the habit of imputing an unreal "I". This habit not only can create karma but can receive its ripening, just as by using the imputation car we can both drive it and crash it.

Karma is likened to a debt. This is Nagārjuna's preferred relative truth version of karma. Also Candrakirti accepts this.
Still, that is just a another, alternate metaphor, not an explanation. When it comes to saṃvrti, my understanding is that prasaṅgikas simply accept the conventions of deluded beings as dependently arisen mere appearances. But an action performed by a sentient being in one lifetime, which comes to fruition three lifetimes later, is not something that appears to anyone. So how can it be differentiated from an utter nonexistent like the son of a barren woman?
But such karma does appear to someone, i.e, buddha or someone with similar capacity of wisdom. It may not appear to you, but relatively speaking, many things do not appear to your which appear to others of higher or more refined faculties.

The actual dharma in question is called an avipranaśa, an "indestructable".
How can you have saṃvrti that only appears to aryas? Isn't the definition of saṃvrti that it is the false perception of the deluded?
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