Yidams, imagination or real entity?

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BrianG
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Re: Yidams, imagination or real entity?

Post by BrianG »

Imagination used in a skillful way.

Normally, when someone new sits down to meditate, let's say shamatha, they will want to stand up after 5 minutes, mostly due to daydreaming, thinking something needs to be done, etc. this is due to their imagination.

Imagination is a kind of poison.

In Vajrayana, poison is used to drive out the poison. Instead of trying to resist your imagination, you subjagate it, through visualization, which binds it.

Most people privately, really look down on themselves, and think they are no good. That is just imagination used in a unskillful way. Therefore, you just use your imagination in a skillful way with generation stage practice.

This is actually quite profound, because once you notice that you get real results depending on how you think of yourself, you will quickly notice that the self is just your imagination.
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Grigoris
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Re: Yidams, imagination or real entity?

Post by Grigoris »

BrianG wrote:Imagination used in a skillful way.

Normally, when someone new sits down to meditate, let's say shamatha, they will want to stand up after 5 minutes, mostly due to daydreaming, thinking something needs to be done, etc. this is due to their imagination.

Imagination is a kind of poison.

In Vajrayana, poison is used to drive out the poison. Instead of trying to resist your imagination, you subjagate it, through visualization, which binds it.

Most people privately, really look down on themselves, and think they are no good. That is just imagination used in a unskillful way. Therefore, you just use your imagination in a skillful way with generation stage practice.

This is actually quite profound, because once you notice that you get real results depending on how you think of yourself, you will quickly notice that the self is just your imagination.
Your teacher said this? And who is your teacher?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
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BrianG
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Re: Yidams, imagination or real entity?

Post by BrianG »

Sherab Dorje wrote:Your teacher said this? And who is your teacher?
I've had many teachers, and this view did not come from just one of them. It matches my own direct experience, which I think is important. Of course, it may not be completely correct, and it most likely is not. So it's up to people who are reading to use their own logic, and decide for themselves whether or not what I'm writing makes sense.

I think it's important to recognize that the goal of Buddhism is to become a buddha. A Buddha is not a deity, the buddha did state however, that deities do exist, however they are not enlightened. They are not Buddha's because they still think they posses a self. The result must resemble it's cause, if you do deity yoga with the view that you are merging with a real actual deity, it is impossible for Buddhahood to occur.

If you do deity yoga with the view that you are binding your sense of self in a skillful way using imagination/visualization, which leads to the realization that your sense of self is actually just your imagination, then you will at least have proven that the self is impermanent, and not unchanging.
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Tom
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Re: Yidams, imagination or real entity?

Post by Tom »

A couple of great places for studying Tibetan Buddhism in Indonesia, see: http://zurmangkagyu.org/zurmang-kagyu-centers/
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Grigoris
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Re: Yidams, imagination or real entity?

Post by Grigoris »

BrianG wrote:I've had many teachers, and this view did not come from just one of them. It matches my own direct experience, which I think is important. Of course, it may not be completely correct, and it most likely is not. So it's up to people who are reading to use their own logic, and decide for themselves whether or not what I'm writing makes sense.

I think it's important to recognize that the goal of Buddhism is to become a buddha. A Buddha is not a deity, the buddha did state however, that deities do exist, however they are not enlightened. They are not Buddha's because they still think they posses a self. The result must resemble it's cause, if you do deity yoga with the view that you are merging with a real actual deity, it is impossible for Buddhahood to occur.

If you do deity yoga with the view that you are binding your sense of self in a skillful way using imagination/visualization, which leads to the realization that your sense of self is actually just your imagination, then you will at least have proven that the self is impermanent, and not unchanging.
First of all you are confusing deities with devas and asuras.

Then you are making the mistake of confusing mind with enlightened nature.

Imagination is deluded mind, deities are not deluded mind, they are aspects of our enlightened nature.

Logic and experience can be deluded too. Actually, to clarify: an experience may be enlightened, but the analysis of the experience...

You may have had many teachers, but it doesn't sound like you were listening to them very carefully.

Go back and ask them the OP's question and see what answer they will give you.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
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BrianG
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Re: Yidams, imagination or real entity?

Post by BrianG »

:hug:
Sherab Dorje wrote: First of all you are confusing deities with devas and asuras.
The word deity comes from the Sanskrit word - deva. This is reflected in various tantras and mantras. I may have confused you into thinking I was refuting deity yoga, which I was not. Terms in Vajrayana often have paradoxical meanings. Even the name of the vehicle - Vajrayana, which implies permanence, has a double meaning, since the Buddha never taught the permanence of a self. Which is why he is referred to as "Vajradhara" Vajra meaning diamond, Dhara meaning cutter. One who cuts through atman. Selflessness through selfishness.

I think it's very helpful to recognize that the mahasiddhas had a very strange sense of humor.
Then you are making the mistake of confusing mind with enlightened nature.
Of course I am. Deluded mind and enlightened mind are not separate. Learning to differentiate the two is the Buddhist path, which deity yoga helps with a lot, because it provides contrast.
Imagination is deluded mind, deities are not deluded mind, they are aspects of our enlightened nature.
I said previously that delusion is used to drive out delusion. Which is precisely what visualization/imagination is used for. Deities are precisely our enlightened nature - anatman. But you need to use delusion to help you realize that. Which is a paradox, which is the Vajrayana path.

It seems to me that you are actually mostly in agreement with what I said, but from a different point of view, which is fine.

My teacher is the Dharma. But I have a few others, just in case. I happy that your viewpoint has worked for you, and I rejoice in that, I'm just relating what has worked for me.
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Loren
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Re: Yidams, imagination or real entity?

Post by Loren »

while we are on the topic i would like to ask what is the definition of "emanation"? what does it mean when chenrezig emanate beings such as tara or mahakala? was chenrezig multiplying himself in different forms for specific activity or was chenrezig giving "birth" to new beings but because of his supernatural power he is somehow giving birth in supernatural way not like a human giving birth? does that mean chenrezig and his emanations were different entities?

thanks and i would like to ask forgiveness in advance for my ignorance in my post
Tara is a Buddha. Didn't she birth herself through Chenrezig's tears to aid him?
Thank You and Ok!

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Grigoris
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Re: Yidams, imagination or real entity?

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BrianG wrote:The word deity comes from the Sanskrit word - deva. This is reflected in various tantras and mantras. I may have confused you into thinking I was refuting deity yoga, which I was not.
Brahma is a Deva. A Mahadeva, actually. He is a samsaric being. He will age and die and suffer like all of us. Yidam are wisdom beings. Buddhas. Beyond samsara and Nirvana. Dharmakayas. No aging, death or suffering there.
Terms in Vajrayana often have paradoxical meanings. Even the name of the vehicle - Vajrayana, which implies permanence, has a double meaning, since the Buddha never taught the permanence of a self. Which is why he is referred to as "Vajradhara" Vajra meaning diamond, Dhara meaning cutter. One who cuts through atman. Selflessness through selfishness.
Completely tangential and irrelevant. The only thing you have done here is give away who your teacher is. And Dhara, according to my extremely minimal grasp of Sanskrit, means "holder" or "wielder".
I think it's very helpful to recognize that the mahasiddhas had a very strange sense of humor.
Also completely tangential and irrelevant. Though I am not going to disagre with you on that one! ;)
Of course I am. Deluded mind and enlightened mind are not separate.
They are also not the same. Which is what your previous post seemed to imply.
I said previously that delusion is used to drive out delusion.
Wisdom destroys illusion, delusion does not destroy delusion.
Which is precisely what visualization/imagination is used for.
Visualisation and imagination are not synonyms. I don't imagine the Yidam.
Deities are precisely our enlightened nature - anatman.
This statement is oxymoronic.
But you need to use delusion to help you realize that.
I need delusion like I need a member growing out of my forehead.
Which is a paradox, which is the Vajrayana path.
The Vajrayana path is to generate delusion via imagination?
I happy that your viewpoint has worked for you, and I rejoice in that, I'm just relating what has worked for me.
It's not my viewpoint. And how has your viewpoint worked for you? You are enlightened?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
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BrianG
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Re: Yidams, imagination or real entity?

Post by BrianG »

Sherab Dorje wrote:Brahma is a Deva. A Mahadeva, actually. He is a samsaric being. He will age and die and suffer like all of us. Yidam are wisdom beings. Buddhas. Beyond samsara and Nirvana. Dharmakayas. No aging, death or suffering there.
How do you know that? Who is your teacher?
Terms in Vajrayana often have paradoxical meanings. Even the name of the vehicle - Vajrayana, which implies permanence, has a double meaning, since the Buddha never taught the permanence of a self. Which is why he is referred to as "Vajradhara" Vajra meaning diamond, Dhara meaning cutter. One who cuts through atman. Selflessness through selfishness.
Completely tangential and irrelevant. The only thing you have done here is give away who your teacher is. And Dhara, according to my extremely minimal grasp of Sanskrit, means "holder" or "wielder".
In a very strange way you are correct, I have given away who my teacher is. However, if you are not that sure of your Sanskrit( and neither am I), wouldn't it be better to look up the definition of the word first? http://spokensanskrit.de/index.php?scri ... rection=AU
I think it's very helpful to recognize that the mahasiddhas had a very strange sense of humor.
Also completely tangential and irrelevant. Though I am not going to disagre with you on that one! ;)

What you said is very interesting. Don't you think that the originators of HYT, and their views, and their lifestyle, would actually be at least a little be relevant? Does it not strike you as at least a little bit odd that many of the Mahasiddhas practiced Hinduism and Buddhism?
Of course I am. Deluded mind and enlightened mind are not separate.
They are also not the same. Which is what your previous post seemed to imply.
Right, so being able to differentiate the two would actually be extremely important? If you were able to differentiate the two, how would you do it?
I said previously that delusion is used to drive out delusion.
Wisdom destroys illusion, delusion does not destroy delusion.
And thus bodhisattvas are likened to peacocks:
They live on delusions – those poisonous plants.
Transforming them into the essence of practice,
They thrive in the jungle of everyday life.
Whatever is presented, they always accept,
While destroying the poison of clinging desire.
So what you think, is that despite one of the greatest yogi's of all time pretty much restating what I just said, that this is all actually wrong. That's very interesting, so do you think this quote from the Wheel of Sharp Weapons is completely incorrect? somewhat incorrect? or not correct at all?
Which is precisely what visualization/imagination is used for.
Visualisation and imagination are not synonyms.
Yes they are.
http://www.thesaurus.com/browse/imagination?s=t
Deities are precisely our enlightened nature -
anatman.
This statement is oxymoronic.

Correct.
But you need to use delusion to help you realize that.
I need delusion like I need a member growing out of my forehead.
So you agree.
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Paul
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Re: Yidams, imagination or real entity?

Post by Paul »

Thread tidied. Please can everyone be a bit more considered in their posting.
Look at the unfathomable spinelessness of man: all the means he's been given to stay alert he uses, in the end, to ornament his sleep. – Rene Daumal
the modern mind has become so limited and single-visioned that it has lost touch with normal perception - John Michell
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Re: Yidams, imagination or real entity?

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

Madhyamaka says that there is nothing anywhere in the universe "real" in the way you normally think about it. So the premise of the question if fundamentally flawed.

The yidams can be said to be authentic, valid, non-fiction, etc. But that still does not mean they are "real" as in the question you asked.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
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Paul
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Re: Yidams, imagination or real entity?

Post by Paul »

This is a great article from Alex Berzin:

http://www.berzinarchives.com/web/en/ar ... ation.html
Look at the unfathomable spinelessness of man: all the means he's been given to stay alert he uses, in the end, to ornament his sleep. – Rene Daumal
the modern mind has become so limited and single-visioned that it has lost touch with normal perception - John Michell
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Re: Yidams, imagination or real entity?

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

Kunga Rinpoche, a Sakya lama who was abbot of a monastery that specialized in Vajrayogini practice, wrote something in "Drinking the Mountain Stream" that people may find interesting:
The deities of the tantric vehicle's extensive pantheon, the male and female personifications of psychic processes as "herukas" and "dakinis", are "produced" by the yogin through the practice of controlled visualization until their reality overshadows that of the superficial apparent world.

(edit for brevity)

When the yogin is able to visualize his own personal deity to the point where the visualization seems to have a life of its own, and when he's able to see the his environment as divine, he then practices the "divine pride" of direct identification of his own body and mind with those of his personal deity.
(italic mine)

*****

On a somewhat related note, a couple of weeks ago I was moving boxes around in the garage and I came across some of my own handwritten notes from a lecture by another Sakya lama, Deshung Rinpoche. My notes said that the reason people are told that the deities are the nature of their own mind is because otherwise they may feel like they are being attacked and the deity "would become a demon". Sounded like a Vajrayana panic attack to me.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
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