Yidams, imagination or real entity?

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HAR
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Yidams, imagination or real entity?

Post by HAR »

Namaste,

coming from monotheism family i took interest in vajrayana (mahamudra and dzogchen). however the concept of yidams is a really hard pill to swallow for me.
its like a major cultural shock for my brain. I hope someone knowledgeable can shed some light here.

is it a "useful product" of "enlightened human" used for tantric meditation; or somehow those beings were real but because in nature they are formless so they can manifest in many forms?
i conclude because each time we reincarnate we have different faces (that is if we are rebirth in planet earth, else might have different form of bodies) so why not a yidam can manifest in different forms
because they have higher supernatural power?

while we are on the topic i would like to ask what is the definition of "emanation"? what does it mean when chenrezig emanate beings such as tara or mahakala? was chenrezig multiplying himself in different forms for specific activity or was chenrezig giving "birth" to new beings but because of his supernatural power he is somehow giving birth in supernatural way not like a human giving birth? does that mean chenrezig and his emanations were different entities?

thanks and i would like to ask forgiveness in advance for my ignorance in my post
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Grigoris
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Re: Yidams, imagination or real entity?

Post by Grigoris »

Define "real".
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HAR
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Re: Yidams, imagination or real entity?

Post by HAR »

Sherab Dorje wrote:Define "real".
this is actually a thoughtful question. thanks

my simple skeleton right now can only think "real" as at least somehow one can have interaction?
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Wayfaring_Man
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Re: Yidams, imagination or real entity?

Post by Wayfaring_Man »

Does one not have interaction with imagination? Isn't the very act of imagining interactive?

There seems to me to be little point to determining if one thing is imaginary and another real. What's more important is one's lived experience. Whether or not yidams are conventionally real is a matter of opinion but largely unimportant.

I'm certain Dorje Drakden seems conventionally real enough to the Nechung Oracle, for example.
Wouldn't it be best to resolve to be done with business and distraction?
Although you serve your superiors, they will never be pleased.
Although you care for your subordinates, they will never be satisfied.
Although you consider the wishes of others with affection, they will never give you a thought.
Think about it, make a definite choice.
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HAR
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Re: Yidams, imagination or real entity?

Post by HAR »

Wayfaring_Man wrote:Does one not have interaction with imagination? Isn't the very act of imagining interactive?
indeed, but i would think more of mutual interaction. for example, seeing... touching... tasting... that kind of sensation your body can feel.
Wayfaring_Man wrote:What's more important is one's lived experience.
damn right. is there any method (yoga, etc) that you know of in tibetan buddhism?
the concept of supernatural being cross all cultural history but somehow i still haven't found a method to directly having experienced something like that.
not trying to be a master in this field, but enough to cut through my ignorance and hopefully learning something useful so i can be a little bit enlightened and directed in the right way.
this questions are almost bringing me to the path of atheism but i would really like to believe there is some force out there that can guide us through ocean of samsara
Wayfaring_Man wrote:I'm certain Dorje Drakden seems conventionally real enough to the Nechung Oracle, for example.
it was also certain enough for naropa to meet a dakini and from there guided to meet tilopa. or if it was too far, this article is also a good read when 16th karmapa met mahakala in bodhgaya:
http://www.rinpoche.com/stories/krmpamiracles.htm

but articles will always be articles. unless someone finally have a direct experience....
if only i were fortunate enough and my karma allows it i will be happy if someone can point me in the right direction...
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Konchok Namgyal
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Re: Yidams, imagination or real entity?

Post by Konchok Namgyal »

real as you can live with, in other words real as your perception.
Yidams in general arent really discussed openly, they are private and personal for many reasons.
this is perhaps something you should speak of with your Guru.

think of a yidam as something like a saint in the Catholic tradition.....a tutelary deity.
Recognize that your mind is the unity of being empty and cognizant, suffused with knowing. When your attention is extroverted, you fall under the sway of thoughts. Let your attention recognize itself. Recognize that it is empty. That which recognizes is the cognizance. You can trust at that moment that these two – emptiness and cognizance – are an original unity. Seeing this is called self-knowing wakefulness. ~ Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche
Jeff
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Re: Yidams, imagination or real entity?

Post by Jeff »

Definitely "real" in the interactive sense. Also, depending on how your mind translates it, one can have real physical interaction with a sense of solid "touch".

Best wishes.
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Re: Yidams, imagination or real entity?

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

Santa Claus is pure fiction.
You are impure non-fiction.
Chenrezig is pure non-fiction.

None are truly "existent" per se.
(My shorthand)
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
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Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
HAR
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Re: Yidams, imagination or real entity?

Post by HAR »

thanks all for the response so far. i'd better sort things out asap with any local dharma center i could find.
i'm living in a country where roughly 0.8% of its population is buddhist, and vajrayana is not the major buddhism here...
so finding local qualified lama is a major task for me...

oh well... wish me luck!
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Paul
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Re: Yidams, imagination or real entity?

Post by Paul »

There's always the internet, such as with the Dzogchen Community. And also fun trips abroad. Where are you based, anyway?
Look at the unfathomable spinelessness of man: all the means he's been given to stay alert he uses, in the end, to ornament his sleep. – Rene Daumal
the modern mind has become so limited and single-visioned that it has lost touch with normal perception - John Michell
HAR
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Re: Yidams, imagination or real entity?

Post by HAR »

hi Paul,

I live in Indonesia, where we have the biggest stupa in the world (Candi Borobudur) and the country where Atisha searching for Dharmarkirti for further studies.
but somehow through the history buddhism took a major step back here.

would you mind telling me good source where can i learn about Dzogchen from internet?
yeah if i have to i dont mind travelling abroad, must be fun meeting new people and seeing firsthand the living tradition of vajrayana
ngodrup
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Re: Yidams, imagination or real entity?

Post by ngodrup »

Dzogchen and vajrayana are both being taught, in person, by
eminently qualified Lamas in both Malaysia and even Thailand.
Fortyeightvows
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Re: Yidams, imagination or real entity?

Post by Fortyeightvows »

I hope to go to borubudor someday, it is a place of great interest to me.

If you are interested in learning about Tibetan Buddhism there will be a very very good teacher who will be teaching at borubudor in june. if you can, I highly recommend you attend. Her name is Venerable Robina and she delivers very good dharma talks. I'm sure you can easily google her name and find her contact info and the details. and she has several of her lectures on youtube.
Fortyeightvows
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Re: Yidams, imagination or real entity?

Post by Fortyeightvows »

I just googled it, venerable robina will be there June 16th-20th teaching on lama atisha's lojong texts. She is a part of the fpmt organization which has temples all over the world, they may even have one near you.
Anyways i assure you that if you go to her teachings you will be glad you did.
:twothumbsup:
palchi
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Re: Yidams, imagination or real entity?

Post by palchi »

There are a number of Tibetan Centres in Jakarta - Kagyu, Ningma, Tergar Community, Geluk I think as well. There will be a Kagyu Monlam in Borobudur in May. There are actually many high lamas passing through Jakarta. There is also a Kagyu Centre in Surabaya I think. Check Vihara Er Di on Facebook.
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Paul
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Re: Yidams, imagination or real entity?

Post by Paul »

HAR wrote:would you mind telling me good source where can i learn about Dzogchen from internet?
Try the Dzogchen Community webcasts of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche. He looks to be taking something of a teaching break until late spring.

http://dzogchencommunity.org/
yeah if i have to i dont mind travelling abroad, must be fun meeting new people and seeing firsthand the living tradition of vajrayana
Looks like getting to Nepal would not be too hard from Indonesia. There is a lot going on there with vajrayana teachers and a lot of students visit as tourists.
Look at the unfathomable spinelessness of man: all the means he's been given to stay alert he uses, in the end, to ornament his sleep. – Rene Daumal
the modern mind has become so limited and single-visioned that it has lost touch with normal perception - John Michell
HAR
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Re: Yidams, imagination or real entity?

Post by HAR »

Fortyeightvows wrote:I hope to go to borubudor someday, it is a place of great interest to me.
hey! its Borobudur. with double "O" and then double "U" :D
Fortyeightvows wrote:I just googled it, venerable robina will be there June 16th-20th teaching on lama atisha's lojong texts. She is a part of the fpmt organization which has temples all over the world, they may even have one near you.
Anyways i assure you that if you go to her teachings you will be glad you did.
:twothumbsup:
hey cool, thanks for the info. sure looks like i will be able to make it. are you coming as well?
this sounds like a good first retreat for me lol :thanks:
this is a silly question, but just to make sure there are no samaya with lojong? and this is more like a general learning and not connected to any kind of lineage specifically right?
palchi wrote:There are a number of Tibetan Centres in Jakarta - Kagyu, Ningma, Tergar Community, Geluk I think as well. There will be a Kagyu Monlam in Borobudur in May. There are actually many high lamas passing through Jakarta. There is also a Kagyu Centre in Surabaya I think. Check Vihara Er Di on Facebook.
are you Indonesian? what centre do you frequent? would you mind PM me further info (location, etc)?

Paul wrote:
HAR wrote:would you mind telling me good source where can i learn about Dzogchen from internet?
Try the Dzogchen Community webcasts of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche. He looks to be taking something of a teaching break until late spring.

http://dzogchencommunity.org/
yeah if i have to i dont mind travelling abroad, must be fun meeting new people and seeing firsthand the living tradition of vajrayana
Looks like getting to Nepal would not be too hard from Indonesia. There is a lot going on there with vajrayana teachers and a lot of students visit as tourists.
yups thanks Paul for the link & i will try to visit local centres first. see which lineage is compatible with me and see further options from there.
i would really like to spend some time to go to Nepal / Bhutan and doing some retreat there, but it looks like i need to strengthen some foundation on the practice before committing to any lineage because if im not mistaken there will be daily commitment if you are learning high level stuff, right?

well the very first foundation that needs to be strengthened for me is the concept of yidam. i really need to learn about it better and hopefully goes further from there because as i have said i come from monotheism family so its like a very different view from what i usually know. and i need to be prepared to be asked questions from my family and friends if i start to have some statues and thangkas of exotic deities. ehh you know what i mean
i like vajrayana because of its emphasis on meditation and mindfulness, not to mention that i really respect HH Dalai Lama and he is the one that first making me want to know and learn about tibetan buddhism (and the prospect of quick liberation, yes? hehe)


Thanks All!
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Paul
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Re: Yidams, imagination or real entity?

Post by Paul »

Maybe look at Secret of the Vajra World and Indestructible Truth by Reginald Ray. They give a good basis for understanding vajrayana.
Look at the unfathomable spinelessness of man: all the means he's been given to stay alert he uses, in the end, to ornament his sleep. – Rene Daumal
the modern mind has become so limited and single-visioned that it has lost touch with normal perception - John Michell
Fortyeightvows
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Re: Yidams, imagination or real entity?

Post by Fortyeightvows »

Borobudur, got it. Double o, double u, thats a good way to remember. my spelling and such isn't always the best, i know. I really wish i could come but I'll be in Taiwan at that time. Venerable robina wont be giving samaya i dont think, I'm sure she'll offer refuge and five precepts if requested. she may give a small daily practice commitment but i don't know. I had a friend who went on pilgrimage with her and told me it was really great, she'll likely break up her lectures with some ritual practice or prostrations or chanting. I've been fortunate enough to attend several teachings with Venerable and I think she is great. I really hope you attend it will be very special. by the other posts it sounds like there are alot of teachers and temples in indonesia- i didnt know there so many but i think it's really great. it's cool to connect with practitioners over such a distance like this.
TaTa
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Re: Yidams, imagination or real entity?

Post by TaTa »

If by real you mean that has causal efficancy then yes. If by real you mean existing independitly by its one side hinherently then now. But then nothing does.
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