On the fringe and on the fence - questions from a would be tantric

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paganfear
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Re: On the fringe and on the fence - questions from a would be tantric

Post by paganfear »

dzogchungpa wrote:
smcj wrote:
tiagolps wrote:


May I ask why? I'm not challenging you, I'm just curious.
When I had Samatha presented to me as only the tool with which to do the real meditative work I was very intrigued. I've also met teachers I respect a lot who've 'graduated' to Vajrayana after many years of practicing both yoga and other forms of Buddhism. On a much more mundane level, as someone who was brought up Catholic, the ritual elements really strike a chord with me.



Yeah fair point guys on the deities and existence. I suppose another way of putting it would be do they have agency independent of our 'using' (forgive the poor word choice here) them as part of meditation.
paganfear
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Re: On the fringe and on the fence - questions from a would be tantric

Post by paganfear »

Kim O'Hara wrote:
paganfear wrote: I'll respond to a couple of questions posed at me so forgive me if they're not as well written.

Regarding the importance of Buddha Shakyamuni actually teaching Vajrayana, my issue isn't that it needs to be true for me to accept it. Rather, that this seems to be firmly believed by many practitioners and I'm always interested in the hagiography vs 'history' discussion. I mean, it is exactly the influence of Daoism that makes Ch'an so agreeable to me, rather than detract from it. But If a practitioner were to deny that influence, it would make me feel uncomfortable.
Why should someone else's views about your chosen path make you uncomfortable?
I'm sure you can think of dozens of people who reckon all Buddhism is totally wrong and believe you're destined for Hell (with a capital 'H'). Do their views make you equally uncomfortable? :thinking:
I'm sure you can think of dozens of people who reckon all religion is crap and you're an idiot for believing any of it. Do their views make you equally uncomfortable? :thinking:
Should a relatively minor doctrinal difference between you and another person make you less uncomfortable than the bigger differences I've mentioned, or more?

Remember the 84 000 dharma doors and relax. :smile:

:namaste:
Kim
Fair point. It's not an 'Oh my god someone disagrees with me!' thing. More that I really appreciate the critical approach to Buddhism that the tradition itself recommends. For me this involves embracing and looking into its syncretism. But yeah sure, everything will be okay. :yinyang:
Schrödinger’s Yidam
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Re: On the fringe and on the fence - questions from a would be tantric

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

Simon E. wrote:
smcj wrote: The previous Kalu R. was asked by a guy named Peter if the deities were real. He said, "They are emptiness and pure appearance. However you Peter are emptiness and impure appearance."
Wel,l these stories go round in circles attributed to different people because they all read each other's teachings, but the version I heard (in person) was;
Student ' How real is Tara?' Chime Rinpoche 'she is as real no more and no less than you are'.
The Kalu R. anecdote I witnessed in person also. Ken McLeod was the translator.
********
Here's another anecdote I witnessed in person:

Deshung R., the famous Sakya lama from Seattle, was at our center. There was a local guy that claimed to be from a family lineage of Nyingma lamas from southern Russia. I have no idea if that was true, but the point here being that he was positioned as a Vajrayana lama but could not speak Tibetan. So he had to use the translator.

The translator was Rinpoche's personal translator and senior student. He knew both Deshung R.'s teachings and his personality very well. The question the lama from Russia asked was about what to do with a particular malevolent spirit that was confusing his student's minds. The translator dismissed the question and wouldn't translate it. "Those things aren't real. They are the nature of emptiness. They are nothing other than projections of your own mind", blah blah blah, all the things you hear from westerners. But the lama from Russia insisted, so finally the translator caved in and asked Rinpoche the question. Rinpoche's answer was, "Oh yes. I know that spirit. He's been making problems with my students as well. You need to do a fire puja on such-and-such a day and then..."
********
So westerners use the higher teachings to dismiss the non-material, but our Tibetan teachers do not. That makes a big difference about what it is you are doing when you sit down to meditate.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
Tiago Simões
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Re: On the fringe and on the fence - questions from a would be tantric

Post by Tiago Simões »

smcj wrote:...
Wow!! ...

There are native nyingmapas in southern Russia? always thought they were all gelugpas :tongue: the more I know.
MiphamFan
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Re: On the fringe and on the fence - questions from a would be tantric

Post by MiphamFan »

Might be from Buryatia, where they are related to Mongols and have Tibetan Buddhism. Gelugpas are dominant there just as in Mongolia but maybe there are small Nyingma lineages.
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Re: On the fringe and on the fence - questions from a would be tantric

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

I'm not vouching for his authenticity, just explaining how a purported Vajrayana lama in 1978 could not know the Tibetan language. His name was Dr. Ajari for those of you that find his story at all interesting.

I just Googled his name.

http://www.quietmountain.org/dharmacent ... _johns.htm

Let me repeat myself; I'm not saying he is an authentic lama. I'm not saying he is a fraud either. I have no idea. I haven't even bothered to read the webpage I just linked.

I will say this: he and his students were colorful. Supposedly they used mountain climbing and music as part of their path. They'd show up at a Gelugpa event doing a cha-cha and playing "When the Saints Come Marching In". He had a business making futons (nice ones) and employed his students, so they were a very tight little group.

However I can unreservedly vouch for the quality of his futons. A couple buddies of mine bought them and still have them almost 40 years later.
:thumbsup:
That's all I know about him.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
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dzogchungpa
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Re: On the fringe and on the fence - questions from a would be tantric

Post by dzogchungpa »

paganfear wrote:Yeah fair point guys on the deities and existence. I suppose another way of putting it would be do they have agency independent of our 'using' (forgive the poor word choice here) them as part of meditation.
I certainly think they can appear to have such agency, but this is actually a tricky question IMO. It seems to me that the nature of the deities is something that can only begin to be understood through practice and is not readily understandable by beginners like myself. :smile:

I'm feeling a little nerdy so I hope you won't mind if I indulge my Dharma hobby by posting a link to a story I think you might find interesting:
Ganesh: Real or Pretend?
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche
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kirtu
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Re: On the fringe and on the fence - questions from a would be tantric

Post by kirtu »

Kundun: Real or pretend: 32:06-32:34

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=43nxsDxQprQ

I had forgotten that the Ganesh piece referenced this scene in Kundun.

Kirt
“Where do atomic bombs come from?”
Zen Master Seung Sahn said, “That’s simple. Atomic bombs come from the mind that likes this and doesn’t like that.”

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche
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Adamantine
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Re: On the fringe and on the fence - questions from a would be tantric

Post by Adamantine »

Kunga Lhadzom wrote:
AlexMcLeod wrote:
Kunga Lhadzom wrote:HE USE TO BE SO NICE AND "NORMAL"
NOW HE AVOIDS ME...
AND I CALL HIM RELENTLESSLY...
AND HAVE EVEN THREATENED TO CALL THE POLICE TO CHECK UP ON HIM
IF HE DOESN'T CALL ME , BECAUSE I DON'T KNOW IF HE IS DEAD OR ALIVE !!!!!!
If your teacher is Eastern, he probably doesn't respond because it is very inappropriate for a student to make demands of the teacher.

Well...i was only worried about him !!!! I thought he could be dead or something....otherwise i never make demands...but yes, he is TIBETAN, and more like a family member to me...i served him for many years...and always respected him like a teacher...never calling him by his informal name...always being formal...

I think it would not be appropriate to not worry about your teacher, when you don't hear from him, when he usually calls you on a regular basis ?
Anyways....I will appologize to him if he thought i was inappropriate....my intensions were out of love...

BTW...he called about an hour ago... :twothumbsup:
Glad your teacher is OK. In general, it is quite common for Lamas to go into strict retreat from time to time, in which case they traditionally wouldn't announce it in advance, and would be off the grid for the duration. So maybe that's what happened, or could happen again. Also, generally, if a Lama is very ill usually someone in the inner sangha would announce it publicly so that disciples have the opportunity to do long life prayers and practices like tsetar. And if a Lama entered parinirvana, then this would also be publicly announced so sangha would have the opportunity to do guru yoga, light lamps and do tsoks, etc. So in general you probably wouldn't have to worry that your teacher is not OK if you simply haven't heard from them for a while.
:anjali:
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
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davyji
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Re: On the fringe and on the fence - questions from a would be tantric

Post by davyji »

paganfear wrote:
dzogchungpa wrote:
smcj wrote:
When I had Samatha presented to me as only the tool with which to do the real meditative work I was very intrigued. I've also met teachers I respect a lot who've 'graduated' to Vajrayana after many years of practicing both yoga and other forms of Buddhism. On a much more mundane level, as someone who was brought up Catholic, the ritual elements really strike a chord with me.



Yeah fair point guys on the deities and existence. I suppose another way of putting it would be do they have agency independent of our 'using' (forgive the poor word choice here) them as part of meditation.

PF, non-physical beings arise all around us, are they substantial? - NO - are they real? - YES
Whether used in practice or simply noticed does not mean they are not arising phenomena.
In shamanistic practices worldwide they are very much part of existence, with tantric practices non-physical beings exist as energy, with Ati-Yoga as awareness... etc.

Dave
Working with the raw elements (air earth fire water space)is a process of connecting with the external elements and internalizing their qualities.
Ultimately we can merge with the element. We connect the external quality with the internal quality and then dissolve the distinctions.
Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche

The essence of the elements is light
ChNN
A Ah Sha Sa Ma Ha
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Re: On the fringe and on the fence - questions from a would be tantric

Post by A Ah Sha Sa Ma Ha »

"Glad your teacher is OK. In general, it is quite common for Lamas to go into strict retreat from time to time, in which case they traditionally wouldn't announce it in advance, and would be off the grid for the duration. So maybe that's what happened, or could happen again. Also, generally, if a Lama is very ill usually someone in the inner sangha would announce it publicly so that disciples have the opportunity to do long life prayers and practices like tsetar. And if a Lama entered parinirvana, then this would also be publicly announced so sangha would have the opportunity to do guru yoga, light lamps and do tsoks, etc. So in general you probably wouldn't have to worry that your teacher is not OK if you simply haven't heard from them for a while." ( ADAMANTINE)

My teacher works, has a regular job, he doesn't teach formally anymore...and he usually tells me if he goes out of the country...or whatever...e's just been really busy working...IDK...we used to talk very regularly...now it's getting less & less....sometimes he talks my ears off...some times he's quiet...
sometimes (yearly) he comes and stays with me....but maybe he is right in my presence all the time I'm just too unaware to realize it....yeah...that's it...he's probably that wilted flower sitting in frount of me now...he teaches me unconventionally.....like one time when he was just washing some dishes.....i sensed he was washing a living thing.....stuff like that.... :alien: One time when i was talking to him i could see a big green aura, and a orange aura around him....and he always acts so ordinary,,,and makes light of every profound thing i tell him .....one time i showed him a big stack of books i read (he always told me my practice is reading)....and then he said. "Why don't you read my book " !!!!!! And I said I did read his book...it was a biography of a famous Lama , and I can't even remember who it is...and i can't find the book it was that was his name......the 6th Dali Lama comes to mind...but i might be wrong...maybe the 5th....i really can't remember...maybe he is just named after one of them....i just moved and put all my books in a book shelf...and i can't find the book i read that he is named after or whatever it is.....anyways.....every time i've asked him for a certain teaching i then fell like i don't deserve it, because i got bored with the simple thing he told me to do...couldn't even stick to that...i did for a few years...then got bored and started to want higher teachings...but i myself tolds him i'm not ready and don't deserve it.....
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Quay
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Re: On the fringe and on the fence - questions from a would be tantric

Post by Quay »

smack wrote:...So westerners use the higher teachings to dismiss the non-material, but our Tibetan teachers do not. That makes a big difference about what it is you are doing when you sit down to meditate.
Indeed so. I have also seen the airy dismissal of things considered non-material by western teachers and some of their students and meanwhile in the background, or sometimes right beside them, the non-material smiles and snickers. So to speak. :smile:
"Knowledge is as infinite as the stars in the sky;
There is no end to all the subjects one could study.
It is better to grasp straight away their very essence--
The unchanging fortress of the Dharmakaya."

– Longchenpa.
Schrödinger’s Yidam
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Re: On the fringe and on the fence - questions from a would be tantric

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

Quay wrote: Indeed so. I have also seen the airy dismissal of things considered non-material by western teachers and some of their students and meanwhile in the background, or sometimes right beside them, the non-material smiles and snickers. So to speak. :smile:
I like the Patrul R quote in your signature suggesting we are "phantoms". It reminds me of Malcolm's Mipham R quote in his signature.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
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Quay
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Re: On the fringe and on the fence - questions from a would be tantric

Post by Quay »

smcj wrote:
Quay wrote: Indeed so. I have also seen the airy dismissal of things considered non-material by western teachers and some of their students and meanwhile in the background, or sometimes right beside them, the non-material smiles and snickers. So to speak. :smile:
I like the Patrul R quote in your signature suggesting we are "phantoms". It reminds me of Malcolm's Mipham R quote in his signature.
I am very happy you noticed it. When I first read Words of My Perfect Teacher the end prayers at each chapter really struck me & this one in particular. I, too, really like the use of the word phantoms in this context.

(And I like your sig, too. I really should have it put on a t-shirt and wear it every time I talk to any fellow Buddhists. :-) )
"Knowledge is as infinite as the stars in the sky;
There is no end to all the subjects one could study.
It is better to grasp straight away their very essence--
The unchanging fortress of the Dharmakaya."

– Longchenpa.
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dzogchungpa
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Re: On the fringe and on the fence - questions from a would be tantric

Post by dzogchungpa »

kirtu wrote:Kundun: Real or pretend: 32:06-32:34

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=43nxsDxQprQ

I had forgotten that the Ganesh piece referenced this scene in Kundun.

Kirt
I'm probably displaying my nerdy, Dharma hobbyist nature by pointing this out, but it is possible to link directly to a youtube video at a specific time, like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=43nxsDxQprQ#t=32m6s
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche
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kirtu
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Re: On the fringe and on the fence - questions from a would be tantric

Post by kirtu »

smcj wrote:I'm not vouching for his authenticity, just explaining how a purported Vajrayana lama in 1978 could not know the Tibetan language. His name was Dr. Ajari for those of you that find his story at all interesting.

I just Googled his name.

http://www.quietmountain.org/dharmacent ... _johns.htm

Let me repeat myself; I'm not saying he is an authentic lama. I'm not saying he is a fraud either. I have no idea. I haven't even bothered to read the webpage I just linked.
Dr. Ajari is a difficult case. He was probably truthful about his background and probably wasn't a complete charlatan. His intentions were probably really positive. Colorful to say the least. He basically established Shugendo and helped pave the way for Tendai in this country. He seems to have been one of the colorful lights of the 60's for sure. Perhaps there are people here who actually met him and took teaching from/with him.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neville_G ... ov_Warwick

Kirt
“Where do atomic bombs come from?”
Zen Master Seung Sahn said, “That’s simple. Atomic bombs come from the mind that likes this and doesn’t like that.”

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche
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dzogchungpa
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Re: On the fringe and on the fence - questions from a would be tantric

Post by dzogchungpa »

smcj wrote:
Quay wrote: Indeed so. I have also seen the airy dismissal of things considered non-material by western teachers and some of their students and meanwhile in the background, or sometimes right beside them, the non-material smiles and snickers. So to speak. :smile:
I like the Patrul R quote in your signature suggesting we are "phantoms". It reminds me of Malcolm's Mipham R quote in his signature.
Possibly of interest: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vGpBYJ5_6E#t=6365
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche
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Quay
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Re: On the fringe and on the fence - questions from a would be tantric

Post by Quay »

Dzogchungpa, that is funny! (And I hope others get the joke.)

And its a good example of impermanence, too, as Cafe des Artistes is, most sadly, no longer.

:focus:
"Knowledge is as infinite as the stars in the sky;
There is no end to all the subjects one could study.
It is better to grasp straight away their very essence--
The unchanging fortress of the Dharmakaya."

– Longchenpa.
muni
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Re: On the fringe and on the fence - questions from a would be tantric

Post by muni »

I like the Patrul R quote in your signature suggesting we are "phantoms". It reminds me of Malcolm's Mipham R quote in his signature.
Me too. :smile: Even my eyes or my conceptual mind cannot comprehend this. I think when my conceptual mind tries to understand this, it can be dangerous. Then there can be a problem as there is a subject ( knowing me) neglecting objects since text says they aren’t or are just so. This is catastrophe.

As long as Nature of Mind “is hidden” by our confusion, there are persons/ all beings and things and events and whatever kind of solid phenomena, all apart from the perceiving mind. These phenomena we then reject or accept. That’s’ why we need to completely trust a Guru (even we do not understand all the time) , and Guru Appearance is not apart from Mind. Recognition of the union of appearances-emptiness or existence-nonexistence by realizing the Nature of Mind, Guru is representing and helping us to “see” as well. Then there are no solid phenomena, nothing to compare, but there is compassion, Genuine Compassion as aspect of selflessness. ( not pity, which is delusion)

Guru Rinpoche said “nonexistence is taught and empty essence”. But when we keep it just by that, what then?
Then he said: “then existence is taught and the cognized nature is explained”. And then he said: unity or union of nonexistence-existence is ‘taught’.” Since this is indescribable, there is the need of Realized Nature/Guru.

I know I wrote that already somewhere but when becoming older, we start to repeat things all the time. Maybe there is also my grasping concern to not go in cold blankness. Apologize.
Let me repeat myself


Oh well, its' contageous.
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