There's buddhadharma and then there the rest

[maybay]

You learn so much its like you float around in a cloud. You see people and they might see you, but there's no contact.

[Malcolm]

You learn so much its like you float around in a cloud. You see people and they might see you, but there's no contact.

Yes, it is so much better to be as illiterate as those around one.

[DGA]

I would argue that there are Buddhist objectives, and non-Buddhist ones. This means that any practice can, in principle, be applied to a Buddhist objective and be, in that context, a Buddhist practice. For example, martial arts or flower arranging are not inherently Buddhist-y things to do, but the have been applied to Buddhist ends (waking people up) to good effect for a long time in specific Buddhist schools. Similarly, nominally Buddhist practices such as satipatthana meditation have been applied to objectives that are not Buddhist ones (managers using "mindfulness" for a more compliant workforce), and in that context, are those practices still Buddhist? Who knows.

I'm not touching the specific case of the Palyul tulku mentioned in the OP. Speaking generally, though, it is worthwhile to consider means and ends in these discussions. What is the point of this practice--what fruit does it bear in this context? that's the question.

Yeah, well that's the thing. Buddhadharma is about ending suffering. If anyone from any other tradition, for example from "new age dharma" or "hindudharma" manages to put an end to their suffering, existential confusion in practice, but has never heard of the specific theory and paradigm of mahayana buddhism, are they even in that case mahayana buddhists or even teachers of mahayana buddhism in case they teach? That's how I am getting Penor Rinpoche point. That you don't have to have taken refuge to Three Jewels, or Bodhisattva Vows etc. etc. to be fit to be called a mahayana buddhist. I am not saying that all paths and systems out there take their followers to the same destination because they don't and that's a whole another discussion what happens with which methods but if a seemingly typical channeled new age-teaching which often talk about love and acceptance, of caring and helping of others, of Oneness, about the importance of meditation and so on and is called mahayana buddhism, well what exactly isn't then? What are the universal practical principles of mahayana buddhism exactly if we use new age-, hindu- or christian terminologies instead of the buddhist one?

Is it possible to end suffering--anyone's suffering--in an ultimate sense by any other means than good old Buddha-Dharma?

I don't mean that as a rhetorical position. I'd like to know where you and others stand on this one.

[maybay]

You learn so much its like you float around in a cloud. You see people and they might see you, but there's no contact.

Yes, it is so much better to be as illiterate as those around one.

You might even resort to sarcasm. At least its contact.

[dzogchungpa]

You learn so much its like you float around in a cloud. You see people and they might see you, but there's no contact.

Yes, it is so much better to be as illiterate as those around one.

You might even resort to sarcasm. At least its contact.

Don't take it too personally, mb. It must be very painful to be so much more literate than those around one.

[DGA]

You learn so much its like you float around in a cloud. You see people and they might see you, but there's no contact.

Don't be stingy. Condescend to enlighten us poor rubes.

[Kaccāni]

Is it possible to end suffering--anyone's suffering--in an ultimate sense by any other means than good old Buddha-Dharma?

I don't mean that as a rhetorical position. I'd like to know where you and others stand on this one.

IMHO, ultimately, dwelling in the present moment is the same for any path. As soon as you have been raised with language, and linked emotions and language, or become self-aware and aware of dying, suffering is there. You could swallow happy-pills all your life. That does work for the right pills. But woe to you if your supply of happy pills runs out. Other than that, if sports, arts or anything take you into the current moment it does not matter. The art must be complex enough so your mental and emotional situation feeds back on performance. If you firmly realize that Jesus already saved you, good for you. Woe to you if you doubt. So any skill that will take your presence back to the current moment will qualify. But you will probably also argue it qualifies as Buddha-Dharma. You could also argue, if you realize that you just have to recognize properly in Bardo, you can just dwell peacefully until then. That's probably not pure good ole Buddha-Dharma ... If it drops you out, good for you. If Advaita-Vedanta is sufficient for you to eagerly enjoy entering Brahman, good for you. If you decide to drop fear of death for any other reason, by realizing you pretty much have the same experience every night, and it doesn't feel bad at all then, good for you.

Are these all Buddha-Dharmas? I don't even want to lead the argument.

Best
Kc

[maybay]

You learn so much its like you float around in a cloud. You see people and they might see you, but there's no contact.

Don't be stingy. Condescend to enlighten us poor rubes.

Ask Kunga Lhadzom.

[Kim]

Is it possible to end suffering--anyone's suffering--in an ultimate sense by any other means than good old Buddha-Dharma?

I don't mean that as a rhetorical position. I'd like to know where you and others stand on this one.

Hi,

I am a student of buddhadharma but do not consider myself "a buddhist". I am interested how these things work in my own bodymind. I have looked into other types of spiritual/mind training teachings as well. There are a lot of similarities but also differences. What is really essential? That's the one million dollar question

In the ultimate sense I think that buddha dharma covers it all. And I like how specific buddha dharma is. I am not much of a philosopher but I think that to get the essentials right, one doesn't need to be anyway.

I think all spiritual teachings try to do the same thing and yet I think only buddhadharma actually has the potential to go all the way.

[A Ah Sha Sa Ma Ha]

You learn so much its like you float around in a cloud. You see people and they might see you, but there's no contact.

Don't be stingy. Condescend to enlighten us poor rubes.

Ask Kunga Lhadzom.

i don't even know what you are talking about. Are you saying i'm an air-head ?
i didn't respond to what you wrote ( "You learn so much... ") because i didn't even realize you were talking (about) me . I thought you were expressing how YOU felt ....but this is actually how you see me ?

i do feel like an air-head here.
but not otherwise...

[maybay]

Don't be stingy. Condescend to enlighten us poor rubes.

Ask Kunga Lhadzom.

i don't even know what you are talking about. Are you saying i'm an air-head ?
i didn't respond to what you wrote ( "You learn so much... ") because i didn't even realize you were talking (about) me . I thought you were expressing how YOU felt ....but this is actually how you see me ?

Well now that u mention...I do feel this way sometimes - disconnected - but I don't dwell on it.

[A Ah Sha Sa Ma Ha]

Well now that u mention...I do feel this way sometimes - disconnected - but I don't dwell on it.

I don't think much when i type...it's all stream of conciousness...and most of the time i'm pressed for time (at work).

Also, I'm slowing recovering from some heavy trauma....from the past 25 years of abuse.

And i can kick ass like there's no tommorrow

[maybay]

And i can kick ass like there's no tommorrow

Anyone who tries to tell u there's a tomorrow deserves to have their ass kicked.

[DGA]

Is it possible to end suffering--anyone's suffering--in an ultimate sense by any other means than good old Buddha-Dharma?

I don't mean that as a rhetorical position. I'd like to know where you and others stand on this one.

Hi,

I am a student of buddhadharma but do not consider myself "a buddhist". I am interested how these things work in my own bodymind. I have looked into other types of spiritual/mind training teachings as well. There are a lot of similarities but also differences. What is really essential? That's the one million dollar question

In the ultimate sense I think that buddha dharma covers it all. And I like how specific buddha dharma is. I am not much of a philosopher but I think that to get the essentials right, one doesn't need to be anyway.

I think all spiritual teachings try to do the same thing and yet I think only buddhadharma actually has the potential to go all the way.

My position is close to yours. I think there are a billion kinds of knowledge out there, and all of it has some value. Some more than others. This is true of all the academic disciplines, the sciences, the applied sciences, the arts and the crafts and the technical fields--all of it--and not only spiritual and cultural traditions. Buddhist knowledge is unique in that it diagnoses a specific problem, and sets out 84,000 openings onto a concrete path to that problems' resolution. The various yoga traditions are excellent and I encourage people to learn from them (and not only the yoga traditions!). What makes yoga as a knowledge unique is its objective, union with one or another terms for Absolute Godhead. Different knowledges, different objectives, all of them helpful to someone at some time.

[dzogchungpa]

The various yoga traditions are excellent and I encourage people to learn from them (and not only the yoga traditions!). What makes yoga as a knowledge unique is its objective, union with one or another terms for Absolute Godhead.

[Malcolm]

What makes yoga as a knowledge unique is its objective, union with one or another terms for Absolute Godhead.

Depends on the yoga tradition. This is certainly not the goal of the Yoga Sūtras.

[DGA]

What makes yoga as a knowledge unique is its objective, union with one or another terms for Absolute Godhead.

Depends on the yoga tradition. This is certainly not the goal of the Yoga Sūtras.

Fair enough--I haven't made a study of them.

[maybay]

Realization may also come if one is oriented toward the ideal of pure awareness, Isvara.
Isvara is a distinct, incorruptible form of pure awareness, utterly independent of cause and effect, and lacking any store of latent impressions.
Its independence makes this awareness an incomparable source of omniscience.
Existing beyond time, Isvara was also the ideal of the ancients.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ishvara

[Malcolm]

Realization may also come if one is oriented toward the ideal of pure awareness, Isvara.
Isvara is a distinct, incorruptible form of pure awareness, utterly independent of cause and effect, and lacking any store of latent impressions.
Its independence makes this awareness an incomparable source of omniscience.
Existing beyond time, Isvara was also the ideal of the ancients.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ishvara

In the Yoga Sūtras, Iśvara is a special type of puruśa, a being who never experienced the tattvas. But Iśvara is not a godhead nor is it creative, per se. While it is indeed said that through devotion to Iśvara one can obtain mukti, mukti still means turning away from prakriti. Not only this, but in the Saṃkhya/Yoga view there are infinite puruśas, of which Iśvara is but one. Thus did my teacher of Yoga, Ṥrivasta Ramaswami, teach.

[Kaccāni]

In the Yoga Sūtras, Iśvara is a special type of puruśa, a being who never experienced the tattvas. But Iśvara is not a godhead nor is it creative, per se.

I see that Isvara is an ideal, and devoting to the ideal can lead to liberation of the practicioner. Yoga, to a big part, is a path of devotion.

The primordial or Adi-Buddhas in Buddhism are said to be not ideals, but merely the first beings that managed to bootstrap themselves into liberation. Quite a difference.

Now my question: Do you know a comparable concept as an Isvara in Buddhism? The tantric deities come to mind.

Best
Kc