“You Can’t Watch Pornos in the Monastery”: Tibetan Tantra, Imagined Pleasure, and the Virtuality of Desire

Forum for discussion of Tibetan Buddhism. Questions specific to one school are best posted in the appropriate sub-forum.
Post Reply
User avatar
Grigoris
Former staff member
Posts: 21938
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: “You Can’t Watch Pornos in the Monastery”: Tibetan Tantra, Imagined Pleasure, and the Virtuality of Desire

Post by Grigoris »

dzogchungpa wrote:
Sherab Dorje wrote:'ccept that the correct definition is: the graphic depiction (-graphy) of the activities of prostitutes (porno).
Um, have you ever looked at the "amateur" section of a porn site? I guarantee you a lot of people would consider a lot of that pornography, even though there are often no prostitutes involved. Furthermore, technically, the people involved in professional porn are not engaging in prostitution either, otherwise it would be illegal, at least in the States.
Well, if we are just going to play with words, why waste our time? Instead go to the amateur section of the porn site of your liking and play with...

Somebody does not have to be a prostitute, to act like a prostitute. Lots and lots of women are objectified and abused in relationships too.
Last edited by Grigoris on Tue Oct 18, 2016 9:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
User avatar
Grigoris
Former staff member
Posts: 21938
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: “You Can’t Watch Pornos in the Monastery”: Tibetan Tantra, Imagined Pleasure, and the Virtuality of Desire

Post by Grigoris »

anjali wrote:Since it's culturally pervasive...
Lots of things are "culturally pervasive" (and careful, coz porn is actually not culturally pervasive everywhere), that doesn't mean we cannot form an opinion on these things on the basis of our knowledge of Dharma.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
User avatar
anjali
Former staff member
Posts: 1662
Joined: Sat Sep 10, 2011 10:33 pm

Re: “You Can’t Watch Pornos in the Monastery”: Tibetan Tantra, Imagined Pleasure, and the Virtuality of Desire

Post by anjali »

Sherab Dorje wrote:
anjali wrote:Since it's culturally pervasive...
Lots of things are "culturally pervasive" (and careful, coz porn is actually not culturally pervasive everywhere), that doesn't mean we cannot form an opinion on these things on the basis of our knowledge of Dharma.
Fair enough. I live in the US where sexually explicit material--not just "porn" in a narrow sense of the word--is more pervasive: advertising, fashion, music, tv, etc. Of course we all know it's not the material per se, but how we react to the material, that matters. ;)
Image
User avatar
dzogchungpa
Posts: 6333
Joined: Sat May 28, 2011 10:50 pm

Re: “You Can’t Watch Pornos in the Monastery”: Tibetan Tantra, Imagined Pleasure, and the Virtuality of Desire

Post by dzogchungpa »

Sherab Dorje wrote:
dzogchungpa wrote:
Sherab Dorje wrote:'ccept that the correct definition is: the graphic depiction (-graphy) of the activities of prostitutes (porno).
Um, have you ever looked at the "amateur" section of a porn site? I guarantee you a lot of people would consider a lot of that pornography, even though there are often no prostitutes involved. Furthermore, technically, the people involved in professional porn are not engaging in prostitution either, otherwise it would be illegal, at least in the States.
Well, if we are just going to play with words, why waste our time? Instead go to the amateur section of the porn site of your liking and play with...

Somebody does not have to be a prostitute, to act like a prostitute. Lots and lots of women are objectified and abused in relationships too.
Dude, you're the one who started playing with words but since you started, may I ask you what it means to "act like a prostitute"?
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche
User avatar
dzogchungpa
Posts: 6333
Joined: Sat May 28, 2011 10:50 pm

Re: “You Can’t Watch Pornos in the Monastery”: Tibetan Tantra, Imagined Pleasure, and the Virtuality of Desire

Post by dzogchungpa »

I found the following amusing advice, which I assume was given to a woman, in my man DJKR's "Longchen Nyingtik Practice Manual":
[Student]: I have read in Patrül Rinpoche’s the “Words of my Perfect Teacher” that masturbation is considered to be a kind of sexual misconduct and I wonder why?
[Rinpoche]: Did he say that? In the sravakayana anything related to sex is kind of looked down on. From the vajrayana point of view, it is taught that within each semen there are millions and millions of dakinis. It would be like killing millions of dakinis.
[Student]: What about for women?
[Rinpoche]: The same thing applies. For women, it is the climax instead of semen.
[Student]: What’s the difference between masturbation and sex? When you have sex with someone else are you still using up your dakinis?
[Rinpoche]: Yes, if you are not doing it properly. You need an anuyoga teaching now.
[Student]: But surely it would be very beneficial if you could tell us, Rinpoche?
[Rinpoche]: Right. Well, for now visualise yourself as a Vajrayoginī.
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche
User avatar
Virgo
Posts: 4844
Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2010 3:47 am
Location: Uni-verse

Re: “You Can’t Watch Pornos in the Monastery”: Tibetan Tantra, Imagined Pleasure, and the Virtuality of Desire

Post by Virgo »

PuerAzaelis wrote:
Virgo wrote:No sex in the champagne room, and now no pornos in the monastery. :tantrum:

Kevin
You won the thread.
You know how I do.

Virgo
User avatar
Manju
Posts: 96
Joined: Wed Jan 08, 2014 11:51 am

Re: “You Can’t Watch Pornos in the Monastery”: Tibetan Tantra, Imagined Pleasure, and the Virtuality of Desire

Post by Manju »

Quite a thread here on this topic.

Suggestion:
A yawn-emoticon should be introduced on dharmawheel :smile:

2 points though:
Sherab Dorje wrote:
Lots and lots of women are objectified and abused in relationships too.
Never understood why it`s mostly about the poor women.
Lots and lots of men are objectified and abused in relationships too.
That`s a serious remark.

Another interesting point for me in this thread:
maybay wrote: I think the Russian temperament that results in Aleppo is very closely linked to their perception of sexuality, as received through orthodox Christian monasticism.
maybay, would you elaborate a bit on this statement ?

Certainly in my childhood in a Soviet Union controlled country there was no Christian activity and no monasticism (communist era 1905 till 1990).

And before that,....how did Russian perception of sexuality, as received through orthodox Christian monasticism, look like ? I would like to know more about it.

Starets Zosima always seemed quite Buddha-like to me in Dostoevsky`s Karamasow tale.
A very positive figure.

Manju
User avatar
dzogchungpa
Posts: 6333
Joined: Sat May 28, 2011 10:50 pm

Re: “You Can’t Watch Pornos in the Monastery”: Tibetan Tantra, Imagined Pleasure, and the Virtuality of Desire

Post by dzogchungpa »

Manju wrote:Suggestion:
A yawn-emoticon should be introduced on dharmawheel :smile:
This is sufficient for most applications: :zzz:
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche
User avatar
gzodzilpa
Posts: 66
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2016 2:24 pm

Re: “You Can’t Watch Pornos in the Monastery”: Tibetan Tantra, Imagined Pleasure, and the Virtuality of Desire

Post by gzodzilpa »

I find it interesting that there is still such a wide range of views of what is acceptable or not. Also, the mutually exclusive views as to what is required to engage in the sexual practices found in Vajrayana.

From the current Dalai Lama '93:
“Truthfully, you can only do such practice if there is no sexual desire whatsoever. The kind of realization that is required is like this: If someone gives you a goblet of wine and a glass of urine, or a plate of wonderful food and a piece of excrement, you must be in such a state that you can eat and drink from all four and it makes no difference to you what they are. Then maybe you can do this practice.”
From Malcolm '11:
In order to practice karmamudra you need ordinary desire. Then you need to inflame it, then you need to inflame it more.

People who say that to practice karmamudra you need to be free from desire have no understanding of Vajrayāna at all.

To me, the rather conservative monastic view seems more like a romanticized fantasy decoupled from the history and practical function of tantra. I believe it was suggested that it is propaganda to keep monks being monks?
shaunc
Posts: 883
Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2013 8:10 am

Re: “You Can’t Watch Pornos in the Monastery”: Tibetan Tantra, Imagined Pleasure, and the Virtuality of Desire

Post by shaunc »

Manju wrote:Quite a thread here on this topic.

Suggestion:
A yawn-emoticon should be introduced on dharmawheel :smile:

2 points though:
Sherab Dorje wrote:
Lots and lots of women are objectified and abused in relationships too.
Never understood why it`s mostly about the poor women.
Lots and lots of men are objectified and abused in relationships too.
That`s a serious remark.

Just about to knock off work for the day. I'm going home chock full of desire (how unbuddhist of me ) that my wife will just use me as her sex object.
User avatar
Grigoris
Former staff member
Posts: 21938
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: “You Can’t Watch Pornos in the Monastery”: Tibetan Tantra, Imagined Pleasure, and the Virtuality of Desire

Post by Grigoris »

Manju wrote:Quite a thread here on this topic.

Suggestion:
A yawn-emoticon should be introduced on dharmawheel :smile:

2 points though:
Sherab Dorje wrote:
Lots and lots of women are objectified and abused in relationships too.
Never understood why it`s mostly about the poor women.
Lots and lots of men are objectified and abused in relationships too.
That`s a serious remark.
I guess this is the point where one could insert a yawn-emoticon? What about a face-palm-emoticon too?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
User avatar
Grigoris
Former staff member
Posts: 21938
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: “You Can’t Watch Pornos in the Monastery”: Tibetan Tantra, Imagined Pleasure, and the Virtuality of Desire

Post by Grigoris »

gzodzilpa wrote:To me, the rather conservative monastic view seems more like a romanticized fantasy decoupled from the history and practical function of tantra. I believe it was suggested that it is propaganda to keep monks being monks?
Of course one has to recognise the context of HHDL's statement in order to verify if the advice contained therein applies to them or not. That said, for some bizarre reason I believe that HHDL may know a little bit more than Malcolm when it comes to issues of Tantric Buddhism, even if he is a monk. ;)
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Malcolm
Posts: 42974
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: “You Can’t Watch Pornos in the Monastery”: Tibetan Tantra, Imagined Pleasure, and the Virtuality of Desire

Post by Malcolm »

Gyurme Kundrol wrote:
Malcolm wrote:This definition of the 5th Samaya, provided below, is not certain. I for one contest it as translated completely.
Id love to hear your thoughts on which parts of this you think are mistranslated or incompletely translated and how a practitioner could interpret it in a different light. I couldnt argue the point either way since I dont know Tibetan but I am genuinely interested since I know translation issues cause a lot of problems in general for understanding certain aspects of Dharma.

Are there other commentaries on the meaning of Tantric vows and how they are to be upheld that you would recommend?
For one thing, Jetsun Dragpa Gyaltsen and the Sakya school in general complete rejects this interpretation. The fifth samaya is simply an indication that one should abandon not relative and ultimate bodhicitta. The idea that it includes semen is also a problem, since the word in Tibetan is khu ba, and depending on context, it wither refers merely to the reproductive seed, or the precursor substances which is divided into reproductive seed and ojas (mdangs). ChNN, in his Birth, Life and Death, states unequivocally, that the reproductive seed is a complete waste product of the body and should be released. According to him, attempts to conserve can lead to sexual dysfunction, stones, and so on. His point of view is supported in various Ayurveda and Tibetan medicine, as well as cycles such as the Khandro Nyinthig.
Last edited by Malcolm on Wed Oct 19, 2016 3:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Malcolm
Posts: 42974
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: “You Can’t Watch Pornos in the Monastery”: Tibetan Tantra, Imagined Pleasure, and the Virtuality of Desire

Post by Malcolm »

Sherab Dorje wrote:
Somebody does not have to be a prostitute, to act like a prostitute. Lots and lots of women are objectified and abused in relationships too.
How about women-made hardcore lesbian porn?

The reason why women are subject to abuse in the porn industry is because of patriarchal attitudes towards women worldwide, not because depictions of sex acts, even graphic depictions of sexual acts, are intrinsically immoral.

The problem is not porn, the problem is patriarchy. This also applies to Buddhist tantric statues and thangkha art, where the depictions of women show clear power differentials and patriarchal tropes, since they are forms and symbols largely determined by men. This applies equally to the objectification of women in manuals on how to choose consorts.
User avatar
Grigoris
Former staff member
Posts: 21938
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: “You Can’t Watch Pornos in the Monastery”: Tibetan Tantra, Imagined Pleasure, and the Virtuality of Desire

Post by Grigoris »

Malcolm wrote:How about women-made hardcore lesbian porn?
http://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f= ... 40#p359888
...not because depictions of sex acts, even graphic depictions of sexual acts, are intrinsically immoral.
Straw man. Try again.
The problem is not porn, the problem is patriarchy.
And everybody knows that the two are mutually exclusive... The problem is patriarchy, I agree, and porn is one way in which patriarchy is imposed on men and women. So why are you supporting porn???
This also applies to Buddhist tantric statues and thangkha art, where the depictions of women show clear power differentials and patriarchal tropes, since they are forms and symbols largely determined by men.
I already answered to this point on page 1.
This applies equally to the objectification of women in manuals on how to choose consorts.
Never said it didn't.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Malcolm
Posts: 42974
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: “You Can’t Watch Pornos in the Monastery”: Tibetan Tantra, Imagined Pleasure, and the Virtuality of Desire

Post by Malcolm »

gzodzilpa wrote: To me, the rather conservative monastic view seems more like a romanticized fantasy decoupled from the history and practical function of tantra. I believe it was suggested that it is propaganda to keep monks being monks?
Perhaps. All I can tell is you what I have been taught by my teachers, and what Longchenpa and others say about the practice in various manuals.

The purpose of karmamudra is to take desire into the path. If you have no desire, there is no need to rely on the path of messengers. Furthermore, from a Dzogchen point of view, as stated in the Tantra of the Union of the Sun and Moon, for example, the practice is beneficial only for men.
Malcolm
Posts: 42974
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: “You Can’t Watch Pornos in the Monastery”: Tibetan Tantra, Imagined Pleasure, and the Virtuality of Desire

Post by Malcolm »

Sherab Dorje wrote: The problem is patriarchy, I agree, and porn is one way in which patriarchy is imposed on men and women. So why are you supporting porn???
I support choice, not patriarchy. I don't think the solution is to try and control people's choices. Clearly, even you admit that patriarchy-free porn is possible, so the problem is not porn nor the graphic depictions of sexual acts.

This also applies to Buddhist tantric statues and thangkha art, where the depictions of women show clear power differentials and patriarchal tropes, since they are forms and symbols largely determined by men.
I already answered to this point on page 1.
I just checked the whole thread. I did not see you address this point.
User avatar
dzogchungpa
Posts: 6333
Joined: Sat May 28, 2011 10:50 pm

Re: “You Can’t Watch Pornos in the Monastery”: Tibetan Tantra, Imagined Pleasure, and the Virtuality of Desire

Post by dzogchungpa »

Malcolm wrote:The purpose of karmamudra is to take desire into the path. If you have no desire, there is no need to rely on the path of messengers. Furthermore, from a Dzogchen point of view, as stated in the Tantra of the Union of the Sun and Moon, for example, the practice is beneficial only for men.
That's interesting, is there some explanation there, or anywhere, of why it is only beneficial for men?
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche
User avatar
Yavana
Posts: 1158
Joined: Sat Apr 16, 2016 5:15 am
Location: Trumpaloka

Re: “You Can’t Watch Pornos in the Monastery”: Tibetan Tantra, Imagined Pleasure, and the Virtuality of Desire

Post by Yavana »

Malcolm wrote:patriarchy-free porn
Would it have a plot line?
Malcolm
Posts: 42974
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: “You Can’t Watch Pornos in the Monastery”: Tibetan Tantra, Imagined Pleasure, and the Virtuality of Desire

Post by Malcolm »

dzogchungpa wrote:
Malcolm wrote:The purpose of karmamudra is to take desire into the path. If you have no desire, there is no need to rely on the path of messengers. Furthermore, from a Dzogchen point of view, as stated in the Tantra of the Union of the Sun and Moon, for example, the practice is beneficial only for men.
That's interesting, is there some explanation there, or anywhere, of why it is only beneficial for men?
Yes. The point is that female orgasm is not connected with the release of their own reproductive tissue.
Post Reply

Return to “Tibetan Buddhism”