Riwo Sang Chod

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Riwo Sang Chod

Postby Sherab Dorje » Mon Apr 18, 2011 3:19 pm

So my lama says that one cannot do sang for others, that others can practice with you but that you cannot do this practice on behalf of another as it draws the source of the others obstacles to you.

But as Bodhisattvas isn't that what we aim to do (with Tonglen for example) take others suffering upon ourselves? Act as a cause for the dissipation of others suffering?

Of course we are talking about relative bodhicitta here. But even the practice itself seems to be talking from the ultimate view. So...?
:namaste:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Riwo Sang Chod

Postby heart » Mon Apr 18, 2011 4:50 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:So my lama says that one cannot do sang for others, that others can practice with you but that you cannot do this practice on behalf of another as it draws the source of the others obstacles to you.

But as Bodhisattvas isn't that what we aim to do (with Tonglen for example) take others suffering upon ourselves? Act as a cause for the dissipation of others suffering?

Of course we are talking about relative bodhicitta here. But even the practice itself seems to be talking from the ultimate view. So...?
:namaste:


Sang is an offering to all Buddhas and sentient beings, so it is already for the benefit of others. Also, at my masters monastery you can sponsor the monks to perform sang for you.

/magnus
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Re: Riwo Sang Chod

Postby Sherab Dorje » Mon Apr 18, 2011 5:09 pm

heart wrote:Sang is an offering to all Buddhas and sentient beings, so it is already for the benefit of others.
It is an offering to others on "your" behalf in order to satisfy karmic debt. I am talking about me making an offering on anothers behalf, that is what this is:
Also, at my masters monastery you can sponsor the monks to perform sang for you.
You are sure that it is a sang offering or is it a sur offering? I have read that one can do sur offerings on anothers behalf. What tradition is your masters monastery?
:namaste:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Riwo Sang Chod

Postby Malcolm » Mon Apr 18, 2011 5:43 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:So my lama says that one cannot do sang for others, that others can practice with you but that you cannot do this practice on behalf of another as it draws the source of the others obstacles to you.


I would not go along with the second part of his belief. But it is true that sang is something you are doing primarily to harmonize the area you are in. You don't do sang for others in the same sense you might do a prayer of twenty one taras.

Of course, in monasteries that make a living selling rituals, anything is possible.

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Re: Riwo Sang Chod

Postby heart » Mon Apr 18, 2011 8:20 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:
heart wrote:Sang is an offering to all Buddhas and sentient beings, so it is already for the benefit of others.
It is an offering to others on "your" behalf in order to satisfy karmic debt. I am talking about me making an offering on anothers behalf, that is what this is:
Also, at my masters monastery you can sponsor the monks to perform sang for you.
You are sure that it is a sang offering or is it a sur offering? I have read that one can do sur offerings on anothers behalf. What tradition is your masters monastery?
:namaste:


Yes, I am sure.

/magnus
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Re: Riwo Sang Chod

Postby Sherab Dorje » Mon Apr 18, 2011 10:02 pm

Which tradition?
:namaste:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Riwo Sang Chod

Postby heart » Tue Apr 19, 2011 5:34 am

gregkavarnos wrote:Which tradition?
:namaste:


It is under offerings http://monlam.org/moreprayers.html

It is Kagyu and Nyingma tradition.

In the sang I do it is quite clear that the reason to do it is to benefit sentient beings and making offerings to the Buddhas and three roots. In general that is the point with all Vajrayana rituals it seems to me.

/magnus
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Re: Riwo Sang Chod

Postby Sherab Dorje » Tue Apr 19, 2011 7:50 am

No body is doubting what you are saying here:
In the sang I do it is quite clear that the reason to do it is to benefit sentient beings and making offerings to the Buddhas and three roots. In general that is the point with all Vajrayana rituals it seems to me.
The commentaries say that the offerings are made to the four classes of guests
Here all the recipients of the offering are explained according to the categories of the four types of guest.

Firstly, there are the guests invited out of respect - the Three Jewels. The glorious Lama, first of all, is the source of blessings and the embodiment of the Three Jewels. The yidam deities of the mandalas are the sources of accomplishment, and are included under the Buddha Jewel. Dakinis are included in the inner Sangha of vidyadharas. Then there are also the dharmapalas. In short, this includes all the inconceivable mandalas of buddhas residing throughout the infinite buddha-fields of the ten directions.

Then there are the guests invited on account of their qualities – the protectors. This refers to the local deities of every place and continent, represented by those of our own continent of Jambudvipa - the earth-lords, devas and nagas, the planetary and stellar forces, guardians of the directions, terrifying ones and great kings. There are also the seventy-five glorious protectors of pure abodes together with their retinues.

Next, there are the guests of the six classes invited out of compassion. This refers to beings wandering throughout the six classes, each tormented by their own particular sufferings, i.e., the gods, demigods, human beings, animals, hungry ghosts and hell-beings.

Furthermore, there are the guests to whom we owe karmic debt, and especially those who would steal our life-spirit, deplete our life-force or kill us. There are the malicious jungpo demons, beings who create obstacles such as sickness. And there are the arrogant spirits of this world who bring bad signs in dreams and all types of evil omens. There are the eight classes of negative spirits, the masters of magical illusions. And, in particular, there are those to whom we have not repaid our karmic debts, to whom we owe food, dwelling places, wealth and possessions. Furthermore there are those forces, male and female, that bring us impurity and obstructions. There are demons that cause insanity and illness. There are the ghosts of men and women who have died. There are the spirits of the dead included in the class of pretas, or hungry ghosts. There are the térangs and the ghouls who inhabit towns and other places. In short, the ‘karmic creditor’ guests include all the obstructing spirits of the various classes of ghosts and demons, male and female.
The Gentle Rain of Benefit and Joy: An Explanation of the Practice of Sang Offering by Gyalsé Shenpen Tayé

The question is can "I" make offerings to, and pay-back the karmic debt of, those "you" owe a karmic debt to? So far we have two nays and one yes.
:namaste:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Riwo Sang Chod

Postby heart » Tue Apr 19, 2011 3:53 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:
The question is can "I" make offerings to, and pay-back the karmic debt of, those "you" owe a karmic debt to? So far we have two nays and one yes.
:namaste:


Can you do chö for others? Can you do mandala offerings for an other?

/magnus
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Re: Riwo Sang Chod

Postby Sherab Dorje » Tue Apr 19, 2011 5:28 pm

heart wrote:Can you do chö for others? Can you do mandala offerings for an other?
Offer yourself up for their demons? How effective could that be? The idea of chod is to cut off your obscurations and attachment to self. I imagine you could dedicte the merit from that activity, but then you can dedicate the merit from any practice. Mandala on behalf of somebody else? It seems to me that the mandala offering is on the one hand abhidharma training for the practitioner and on the other an attempt to instil in the practitioner a sense of boundless generosity. So again... I don't know.
:namaste:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Riwo Sang Chod

Postby Pero » Tue Apr 19, 2011 5:43 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:
heart wrote:Can you do chö for others? Can you do mandala offerings for an other?
Offer yourself up for their demons? How effective could that be? The idea of chod is to cut off your obscurations and attachment to self. I imagine you could dedicte the merit from that activity, but then you can dedicate the merit from any practice. Mandala on behalf of somebody else? It seems to me that the mandala offering is on the one hand abhidharma training for the practitioner and on the other an attempt to instil in the practitioner a sense of boundless generosity. So again... I don't know.
:namaste:

I don't really know anything about it, but there's something called Healing Chod which can be/is done for others. But as for your points, sometimes I'm also slightly suspicious about it all but I think it can work. I just don't think it's exactly the same when one is doing these practices himself or when others do them for him. I think an important distinction could also be that these are done for someone and not instead of someone.
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Re: Riwo Sang Chod

Postby Malcolm » Tue Apr 19, 2011 6:02 pm

heart wrote:
gregkavarnos wrote:Which tradition?
:namaste:


It is under offerings http://monlam.org/moreprayers.html

It is Kagyu and Nyingma tradition.

In the sang I do it is quite clear that the reason to do it is to benefit sentient beings and making offerings to the Buddhas and three roots. In general that is the point with all Vajrayana rituals it seems to me.

/magnus



Depends on what sang. The real purpose of sang is to purify. That is what the word "bsangs" actually means -- to cleanse. In this case we are cleansing with smoke.

Many sangs are quite specific, restricted to one location, one local guardian and so on. General sangs offerings, like Riwo Sangcho, are purification rites focused on the four guests.

The original sang offering left by Padmsambhava in Tibet i.e. Kama tradition, is the famous Nol sangs i.e. "purifying pollution". Lamas frequently combine this with Riwo Sangcho for a more full effect.

M
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there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Riwo Sang Chod

Postby Dharmaswede » Wed Apr 20, 2011 11:04 pm

Offer yourself up for their demons? How effective could that be?


Tremendously effective I would say, but I think the wording "offer yourself up to for their demons" is implying something deceptively simplistic, with all due respect. I think it is a bit more subtile then that. How you conceive the effectiveness depends on your conception of "you", "demons" and "interdependence".

The idea of chod is to cut off your obscurations and attachment to self.


Mileage vary. Some think demons are akin to the equivalent to psychological constructs, others that they are sentient beings. If you believe them to be sentient beings, the idea of chod is in my humble opinion greater than that. If you don't believe that demons are sentient beings, then I think you are close to having a problem with the six realms… without those, I don't know what to make of Dharma (except for being a super-psychology).

I imagine you could dedicte the merit from that activity, but then you can dedicate the merit from any practice.


What does it mean, in your opinion, to dedicate merit?

To me, if you can't help others in ways that are outside the Occidental paradigm, then a whole lot of Tibetan Vajrayana unravels...

With great respect,

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Re: Riwo Sang Chod

Postby Sherab Dorje » Tue Apr 26, 2011 6:42 pm

Look, the aim of all practices is to achieve Mahamudra. Right? (well in my tradition it is) But the question I am asking is purely at the relative level. So at this level we have my karma, your demons, his strawberry cheese cake, their cancerous tumor, etc... The answers I am seeking are for questions that deal with the relative level. Thanks for the advise though! :smile:
What does it mean, in your opinion, to dedicate merit?
For me, at the relative level, it means that my "progress" can act as a source of benefit to others. What does this mean? That those who are not at the same "level" as me can be guided there by me, either through teaching (transference/dedication of knowledge), counselling (tranference/dedication of wisdom), by me acting as a source of inspiration to them, by me gaining energy to expend in order to benefit others, by me donating physical goods that arise as a result of my practice, etc...

What does it mean on the ultimate level? I'll tell you about that when I get to the point where I am experiencing that! :tongue:
:namaste:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
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Re: Riwo Sang Chod

Postby Dharmaswede » Wed Apr 27, 2011 10:26 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:Look, the aim of all practices is to achieve Mahamudra. Right? (well in my tradition it is)


Many different names, but Mahamudra is quite perfect.

But the question I am asking is purely at the relative level. So at this level we have my karma, your demons, his strawberry cheese cake, their cancerous tumor, etc... The answers I am seeking are for questions that deal with the relative level. Thanks for the advise though! :smile:


I was talking about the relative level, and I am sorry that I wasn't able to communicate clear enough. The troubles and obstacles in your life stem from various sources, including demons, karmic debtors etc. These troubles and obstacles are very real, on the relative level – and so are demons in my line of argument. In chö you directly approach these demons, karmic debtors etc. and clear up the karmic repurcussions, demonic influences etc. you are experiencing as well as dormant karma related to these. (I will limit the discussion to these kinds of guests.) This is done in "general" chö, as well as in "healing" chö (a little odd division perhaps, but hopefully it makes things less confusing). Again, this is a simplified presentation ("clearing up" doesn't mean that you will not experience demonic uprisings, for instance).

Is that clearer? I am not totally sure I understand your inquiry.

Best Regards,

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Re: Riwo Sang Chod

Postby miranda » Sun Sep 15, 2013 7:20 pm

As Malcom wrote :

"The original sang offering left by Padmsambhava in Tibet i.e. Kama tradition, is the famous Nol sangs i.e. "purifying pollution". Lamas frequently combine this with Riwo Sangcho for a more full effect. "

Does anyone knows if an english translation of that Nol Sang is avaible somewhere? Thanks
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Re: Riwo Sang Chod

Postby Adamantine » Mon Sep 16, 2013 4:40 am

miranda wrote:As Malcom wrote :

"The original sang offering left by Padmsambhava in Tibet i.e. Kama tradition, is the famous Nol sangs i.e. "purifying pollution". Lamas frequently combine this with Riwo Sangcho for a more full effect. "

Does anyone knows if an english translation of that Nol Sang is avaible somewhere? Thanks


Are we talking about "Orgyen Rinpoche Dze Pai Drib Sang Nye Pa Kun Sel Shug So" ?
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
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Re: Riwo Sang Chod

Postby ngodrup » Mon Sep 16, 2013 5:40 am

A couple of points--

the "chod" in ri wo sang chod means offering not cutting or lujin.

second, yes, primarily sangs are environmental, but pacifying can be general or specific.
Can you do a jinsek for others? Yes. Does your offering pay the debts of others? hmm.
Well, if a being wants something, so a house that was promised, might they be satisfied
by receiving it regardless of who gave it? Especially if the recipient was told, this gift was
arranged by the person who owed it? It seems that the creditor may be satisfied.
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Re: Riwo Sang Chod

Postby Karma Jinpa » Wed Sep 18, 2013 7:25 pm

ngodrup wrote:A couple of points--

the "chod" in ri wo sang chod means offering not cutting or lujin.

second, yes, primarily sangs are environmental, but pacifying can be general or specific.
Can you do a jinsek for others? Yes. Does your offering pay the debts of others? hmm.
Well, if a being wants something, so a house that was promised, might they be satisfied
by receiving it regardless of who gave it? Especially if the recipient was told, this gift was
arranged by the person who owed it? It seems that the creditor may be satisfied.


:good:

Thanks for this, ngodrup. Was just about to ask if it was the same Chöd as in Lüjin. Does anyone know the Wylie or proper U-chen?
"The Sutras, Tantras, and Philosophical Scriptures are great in number. However life is short, and intelligence is limited, so it's hard to cover them completely. You may know a lot, but if you don't put it into practice, it's like dying of thirst on the shore of a great lake. Likewise, it happens that a common corpse is found in the bed of a great scholar." ~ Karma Chagme

དྲིན་ཆེན་རྗེ་བཙུན་བླ་མ་རཱ་ག་ཨ་སྱ་མཁྱེན་ནོ།
ཀརྨ་པ་མཁྱེན་ནོ།


:namaste:
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Re: Riwo Sang Chod

Postby michaelb » Wed Sep 18, 2013 8:25 pm

ri bo bsang mchod རི་བོ་བསང་མཆོད་
and
gcod གཅོད
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