WOMPT & Sex

Re: WOMPT & Sex

Postby Nemo » Fri Sep 30, 2011 12:51 am

In my personal experience everything that comes from a realized individual is supreme medicine. Even corpse salt from a high Lama is a wonderful medicine for ones practice.

The best example I have is from being plumber. I was fixing the sewer pipes of a high Lama. He had not been informed of my work and took a shower while I was working on it. As I was scrambling around I noticed the water seemed to have a luminous quality. I had no idea who was using the water but reached out and touched it. Instantly my mind was calm and vast like space. Like I had spent many weeks in deep retreat. It stayed like that for a few days. It did not matter what I did. My mind did not move. Erotic thoughts, sleepiness or watching TV it all felt the same.

I asked the Lama about it. He said that yes it was normal, but Lama's usually do not give those kind of blessings. It does not last and he considered it showing off.

If that is what bath water will do I can't imagine how powerful those other substances mentioned would be.
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Re: WOMPT & Sex

Postby Virgo » Fri Sep 30, 2011 2:14 am

Ha ha. That's great nemo. But am I missing something?

Kevin
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Re: WOMPT & Sex

Postby el_chupacabra » Fri Sep 30, 2011 2:45 am

Virgo wrote:Ha ha. That's great nemo. But am I missing something?

Kevin


Well, if the Lama is anything like me, that luminous stuff wasn't water! :tongue:
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Re: WOMPT & Sex

Postby wayland » Fri Sep 30, 2011 12:23 pm

Namdrol wrote:It is from Tibetan Medicine as well as Dzogchen Nyinthig.

Simply put, sukra [semen], both male and female is the the byproduct [kita] that is left over when the final product of digestion, ojas, is formed. Ojas is the real "bodhicitta" in the body, and directly supports the indestructible drop in the heart. N

Thanks Namdrol. So I guess, on this basis, the level of Ojas has more to do with correct diet than semen loss or retention?
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Re: WOMPT & Sex

Postby Malcolm » Fri Sep 30, 2011 12:35 pm

wayland wrote:
Namdrol wrote:It is from Tibetan Medicine as well as Dzogchen Nyinthig.

Simply put, sukra [semen], both male and female is the the byproduct [kita] that is left over when the final product of digestion, ojas, is formed. Ojas is the real "bodhicitta" in the body, and directly supports the indestructible drop in the heart. N

Thanks Namdrol. So I guess, on this basis, the level of Ojas has more to do with correct diet than semen loss or retention?
:namaste:



That depends on a number of factors. Ojas can be lost with semen if a man's digestion processes are not good, if they are not eating well, etc. Other causes for the deterioration of ojas is stress, worry, poor habits such as staying up to late, not getting proper rest and so on. Also one is more likely to loose ojas with semen in the summer when one's diet is less nutrititous, less oily, lighter, rougher, and so on.
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Re: WOMPT & Sex

Postby wayland » Fri Sep 30, 2011 4:51 pm

Namdrol wrote:That depends on a number of factors. Ojas can be lost with semen if a man's digestion processes are not good, if they are not eating well, etc. Other causes for the deterioration of ojas is stress, worry, poor habits such as staying up to late, not getting proper rest and so on. Also one is more likely to loose ojas with semen in the summer when one's diet is less nutrititous, less oily, lighter, rougher, and so on.

Thanks Namdrol. Looks like quite a complex topic. In some ways more multi-faceted than one may initially think.
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Re: WOMPT & Sex

Postby Virgo » Fri Sep 30, 2011 6:50 pm

wayland wrote:
Namdrol wrote:That depends on a number of factors. Ojas can be lost with semen if a man's digestion processes are not good, if they are not eating well, etc. Other causes for the deterioration of ojas is stress, worry, poor habits such as staying up to late, not getting proper rest and so on. Also one is more likely to loose ojas with semen in the summer when one's diet is less nutrititous, less oily, lighter, rougher, and so on.

Thanks Namdrol. Looks like quite a complex topic. In some ways more multi-faceted than one may initially think.
:namaste:

It was statements like that that made me realize how important health is in Buddhism.

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Re: WOMPT & Sex

Postby Kai » Sun Oct 02, 2011 3:50 pm

Virgo wrote:It was statements like that that made me realize how important health is in Buddhism.

Kevin


Health is always important. Thats why Buddha advised people to start practice when they are young, not when they are old and retiring.
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Re: WOMPT & Sex

Postby Virgo » Sun Oct 02, 2011 8:57 pm

Kai wrote:
Virgo wrote:It was statements like that that made me realize how important health is in Buddhism.

Kevin


Health is always important. Thats why Buddha advised people to start practice when they are young, not when they are old and retiring.

Right but it works on many levels. For example, knowing about ojas is good for your practice.

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Re: WOMPT & Sex

Postby Sherab Zangpo » Sat May 02, 2015 2:56 pm

Malcolm wrote:No, the vows are pretty consistent over all.

It means that they are constantly comitting a branch downfall.


Ok, so whats the choice for somebody who happens to live with a non-tantric buddhist?
To have intercourse without any awareness? Or to see oneself as the deity and then.... fill me in here please :?:

It's funny. There's to little information out there for somebody to find before taking vows.
I read up a lot before taking the step, but still I seemed to have missed this point hahaha.
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Re: WOMPT & Sex

Postby Adamantine » Fri May 08, 2015 1:34 am

Sherab Zangpo wrote:
Malcolm wrote:No, the vows are pretty consistent over all.

It means that they are constantly comitting a branch downfall.


Ok, so whats the choice for somebody who happens to live with a non-tantric buddhist?
To have intercourse without any awareness? Or to see oneself as the deity and then.... fill me in here please :?:

It's funny. There's to little information out there for somebody to find before taking vows.
I read up a lot before taking the step, but still I seemed to have missed this point hahaha.


I guess you could bring her to an empowerment?
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Re: WOMPT & Sex

Postby Heterodox Garden » Fri May 08, 2015 2:15 am

In my opinion, the entire issue of gender and sexuality -- gay, straight, or otherwise -- has come to assume far too much importance in both religion and social life. It has become highly politicized and is tied up with all kind of bizzare attention-seeking and theories of power, identity, etc. in ways that are uniquely "postmodern." The intrusion of these gender/sexual issues into religious and social life through a "postmodern" Western academic lens is highly negative to the Dharma and Sangha in my opinion. Gender and sexuality are being used as "crowbars" to destroy traditions of all sorts and to transfer power in a way that goes beyond the core issues themselves.

Thus, when we consider these issues in this day and age, it is important to seperate the core issues from political power-seeking and "identity" issues, which are wrapped up with worldly power and ego in a way they were not as recently as 20, 40, or 100 years ago.

Given this, although some may consider it a form of dodging the question, I think it is a kind of "skillful means" to counter their overemphasis on gender/sexuality in secular life by de-emphasizing them in religious life. In other words, before worrying about this, why not work on the fundamentals of the 8fold path, or seeking greater wisdom and compassion in other areas? Perhaps if our wisdom and compassion were greater at root, these issues could be seen as simply not worth all the pushing and shoving involved on both sides?

To sum up: there are more important things to worry about.

Personally I have been celebate for many years and in my humble opinion this is a nice clean way to simply sidestep the whole mess. This is not for everyone, of course.
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Re: WOMPT & Sex

Postby bryandavis » Fri May 08, 2015 4:01 am

Hi Namdrol,
Isn't it the case that emission of semen expels the 'essence' of deities which reside at points within the subtle body of the practitioner? Does it not contravene tantric vows?




No.If that were true, then defecation and urination would also be a problem. Semen, like feces and urine, is a waste product.

No, not in general. However if one is engaged in karma mudra practice and so on, it does. Tantric vows are different for people doing different practices.

Greetings All.

Malcom,

Could you if possible elaborate a bit more on this point? If the essence is increased or nourished by food / nutrients / elements etc... and the coarse semen is a waste product, is there a given reason in any tantra as to why emitting the waster product is a samaya breakage?

Thank you.

Bryan.
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Re: WOMPT & Sex

Postby bryandavis » Sat May 09, 2015 4:58 pm

Thinking about the above question, besides hearing about "leaking essence kills the life force of the dakinis" or other such explanations I have heard in HYT empowerments. I reason that since one is taking the practice of the four joys as part of the path then when semen in leaked this is for most of us accompanied by orgasm. So as to not be attracted to the coarse bliss of orgasm we must hold the seed so that the bliss of the four joys is not lost. That makes a bit of sense to me.

But really I have never heard a good explanation except the standard "you kill the dakinis". I also confess to not being learned.

All the best,
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Re: WOMPT & Sex

Postby Loren Enders » Sat May 09, 2015 6:48 pm

Sherab Zangpo wrote:
Malcolm wrote:No, the vows are pretty consistent over all.

It means that they are constantly comitting a branch downfall.


Ok, so whats the choice for somebody who happens to live with a non-tantric buddhist?
To have intercourse without any awareness? Or to see oneself as the deity and then.... fill me in here please :?:

It's funny. There's to little information out there for somebody to find before taking vows.
I read up a lot before taking the step, but still I seemed to have missed this point hahaha.


This is Dharma practice. I am not perfect so I would imagine there must be some practice time involved to get it right.
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Re: WOMPT & Sex

Postby smcj » Sat May 09, 2015 7:09 pm

Ok, so whats the choice for somebody who happens to live with a non-tantric buddhist?

I was engaged to a woman that wasn't into Buddhsim at all. She was a good person and my lama approved. There is no issue as far as I can tell.
There is a tradition of making a distinction between two different perspectives on the nature of emptiness: one is when emptiness is presented within a philosophical analysis of the ultimate reality of things, in which case it ought to be understood in terms of a non-affirming negative phenomena. On the other hand, when it is discussed from the point of view of experience, it should be understood more in terms of an affirming negation.
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Re: WOMPT & Sex

Postby frankc » Fri May 29, 2015 7:07 pm

Malcolm wrote:If you are a lay tantric practitioner you need to practice the yoga of passion, perceving yourself as a heruka and your partner as a dakini (for example, Kalacakra and Vishvamata). The yoga of passion is not connected with the completion stage, it is connected with the creation stage, so there is no need to worry about losing semen and so on.

As far as which orifice, etc., this is mainly a sutrayāna affair. There are no restrictions for a practitioner practicing the yoga of passion. The body of a deity is completely pure.


N


But Gampopa speaks of three types of sexual misconduct in the Jewel Ornament Of Liberation which includes wrong parts of the body. Wasn't he a tantric practitioner? I don't understand. :shrug:
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Re: WOMPT & Sex

Postby Malcolm » Fri May 29, 2015 7:16 pm

frankc wrote:
Malcolm wrote:If you are a lay tantric practitioner you need to practice the yoga of passion, perceving yourself as a heruka and your partner as a dakini (for example, Kalacakra and Vishvamata). The yoga of passion is not connected with the completion stage, it is connected with the creation stage, so there is no need to worry about losing semen and so on.

As far as which orifice, etc., this is mainly a sutrayāna affair. There are no restrictions for a practitioner practicing the yoga of passion. The body of a deity is completely pure.


N


But Gampopa speaks of three types of sexual misconduct in the Jewel Ornament Of Liberation which includes wrong parts of the body. Wasn't he a tantric practitioner? I don't understand. :shrug:


It is a sūtra text.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


One who explains any Dharma
without possessing trustworthy scriptures,
has a conceptual nature,
spoiling himself and spoiling others.

-- Ghanavyūha Sūtra
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Re: WOMPT & Sex

Postby frankc » Fri May 29, 2015 10:00 pm

Malcolm wrote:
frankc wrote:
Malcolm wrote:If you are a lay tantric practitioner you need to practice the yoga of passion, perceving yourself as a heruka and your partner as a dakini (for example, Kalacakra and Vishvamata). The yoga of passion is not connected with the completion stage, it is connected with the creation stage, so there is no need to worry about losing semen and so on.

As far as which orifice, etc., this is mainly a sutrayāna affair. There are no restrictions for a practitioner practicing the yoga of passion. The body of a deity is completely pure.


N


But Gampopa speaks of three types of sexual misconduct in the Jewel Ornament Of Liberation which includes wrong parts of the body. Wasn't he a tantric practitioner? I don't understand. :shrug:


It is a sūtra text.


Alright, thank you. Can you explain a little more? I was told Gampopa was a student of Milarepa. Wasn't Milarepa a Tantric practioner? Why is his student teaching Sutra? I am new to Vajrayana and Mahayana, very confused. :juggling:
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Re: WOMPT & Sex

Postby smcj » Sat May 30, 2015 3:55 am

frankc wrote:
Malcolm wrote:It is a sūtra text.


Alright, thank you. Can you explain a little more? I was told Gampopa was a student of Milarepa. Wasn't Milarepa a Tantric practioner? Why is his student teaching Sutra? I am new to Vajrayana and Mahayana, very confused. :juggling:

Sutrayana and Vajrayana are both forms of Mahayana.

These days most Vajrayana schools have Sutrayana as a basis. It is extremely common for lamas to write both sutric and tantric texts. Gompopa's "Jewel Ornament of Liberation" is his major sutric text, at least in translation.
There is a tradition of making a distinction between two different perspectives on the nature of emptiness: one is when emptiness is presented within a philosophical analysis of the ultimate reality of things, in which case it ought to be understood in terms of a non-affirming negative phenomena. On the other hand, when it is discussed from the point of view of experience, it should be understood more in terms of an affirming negation.
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