Horrifying image of Tibetan Ani in self immolation

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muni
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Re: Horrifying image of Tibetan Ani in self immolation

Post by muni »

There is nobody judging the nun how it is expressed here!


"There is courage -- very strong courage. But how much effect? Courage alone is no substitute. You must utilize your WISDOM, ” Dalai Lama.

"Beijing has blamed the Dalai Lama for inciting a string of nine Tibetan protesters who set themselves on fire in recent months". both from BBC
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Re: Horrifying image of Tibetan Ani in self immolation

Post by Heruka »

muni wrote:There is nobody judging the nun how it is expressed here!


"There is courage -- very strong courage. But how much effect? Courage alone is no substitute. You must utilize your WISDOM, ” Dalai Lama.

"Beijing has blamed the Dalai Lama for inciting a string of nine Tibetan protesters who set themselves on fire in recent months". both from BBC

agree with this. thank you muni la.
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Re: Horrifying image of Tibetan Ani in self immolation

Post by Heruka »

AlexanderS wrote:I must say anyone judging a nun for sacrifing herself for the tibetan cause are showing a complete lacking of understanding and a complete lack of balls. Being compassionate is not about cowardice or passivity. I hope anyone judging these desperate tibetans actions take a good look at themselves from their comfortable seat in front of their computer.
can i judge your words to mean you encourage this act from your comfortable seat in front of your computer eating hot pockets?
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Dechen Norbu
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Re: Horrifying image of Tibetan Ani in self immolation

Post by Dechen Norbu »

muni wrote:There is nobody judging the nun how it is expressed here!


"There is courage -- very strong courage. But how much effect? Courage alone is no substitute. You must utilize your WISDOM, ” Dalai Lama.

"Beijing has blamed the Dalai Lama for inciting a string of nine Tibetan protesters who set themselves on fire in recent months". both from BBC
How do people know what are/will be the effects of Ani's action? As I said, I think it's better sticking to positive aspirations. We are no politicians, whose words will be used against ourselves or the Tibetan people. The fact that HHDL can't endorse such actions (even a minor slip of speech would be used violently against him by those who seek every opportunity to weaken his position), doesn't mean we are allowed to judge such behaviors from our comfort. At least I don't feel it's my right without knowing all the details, ani's achievements included.
Beijing always blames the Dalai Lama. A Tibetan farts and it's HH fault! Their words carry no weight. Everyone without strong economic (or others) interests in China knows this.
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ronnewmexico
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Re: Horrifying image of Tibetan Ani in self immolation

Post by ronnewmexico »

I'm sorry...I know of nowhere in buddhist thought that has suicide as a means, and mentioned in only the most negative of manners to be the cause of very unfortunate rebirths.

The buddha serving himself to a lioness is not suicide. It involves the action of another sentient being, the lioness.
A expectation of result is anticipated but that is not by ones own hand suicide as it is normally described.
Pouring gas on oneself and lighting the torch is suicide. Paying someone to light the torch...that also would be suicide as it is useing a person as a tool as one would use the torch.
A lionness feeding her cubs is not suicide in that sense. The intention is to feed not to die as point or otherwise.
The death of a suicideing person as point political is still the point is death of oneself.
Intention death is intended of oneself for point.

Are we starving and then eat this persons body...I think not that, is not the situation. In any event if that was the situation it would be better for one that others did that, not oneself. Or else they should die of hunger.... that being their choice.... why bring their choice upon us making it for them?

No...first it is political then it is economic then it is...oh I had a bad day.....
Silly...one doesn't kill oneself regardless or reason.
They want to eat me...let them do it. They may then kill me and eat me...I will not make their choice for them.
I am here for them to eat....eat away I say. I say that right here and now to demon or other...no suicide I am comitting.


Tibet...it is over years ago.The majority in Tibet is Han. Relocate all the han then....not going to happen.
Evil communist china repression....bosnia serbia..... ever look to that place what happened by majority vote in that place when the evil repression of soviets did devolve......

NO communism rule....you think the han will peaceably leave...or would they not by numerical superiority rise up and kill all tibetans that they could....you think that would not happen?

Joking you must be kidding....Han pretty much...they hate the tibetans. NOt overtly but it is not far away. many do, it lies just below the surface as they compete for job for money for land.
Told to leave by tibetan nor force of governments...they kill the tibetan...it is really that simple....they hold vast majority in the place once tibetan.
Sad very sad and tragic...but fact.
As american indian cannot long for such a return to what once was.

Human hate anything that competes...hence the demonization of wolf...any many other demonizations.
"This order considers that progress can be achieved more rapidly during a single month of self-transformation through terrifying conditions in rough terrain and in "the abode of harmful forces" than through meditating for a period of three years in towns and monasteries"....Takpo Tashi Namgyal.
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Dechen Norbu
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Re: Horrifying image of Tibetan Ani in self immolation

Post by Dechen Norbu »

Heruka wrote:
AlexanderS wrote:I must say anyone judging a nun for sacrifing herself for the tibetan cause are showing a complete lacking of understanding and a complete lack of balls. Being compassionate is not about cowardice or passivity. I hope anyone judging these desperate tibetans actions take a good look at themselves from their comfortable seat in front of their computer.
can i judge your words to mean you encourage this act from your comfortable seat in front of your computer eating hot pockets?
Seems to me your interpreting skills must be quite poor, Heruka. Alexander doesn't encourage such actions. He simply doesn't judge them as necessarily wrong, as you and others seem to be doing. Not knowing, we better make positive aspirations instead of judging others who are/ were in a situation far worse than our wildest dreams. Alex post to me seems about humbleness instead of unsubstantiated moral high horses.
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Dechen Norbu
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Re: Horrifying image of Tibetan Ani in self immolation

Post by Dechen Norbu »

ronnewmexico wrote:I'm sorry...I know of nowhere in buddhist thought that has suicide as a means, and mentioned in only the most negative of manners to be the cause of very unfortunate rebirths.

[...]
Human hate anything that competes...hence the demonization of wolf...any many other demonizations.
That's all well and good, but in mahayana intention supersedes sila. You should know that.
How do you know her action didn't stop the military from killing a bunch of people in the near future, just because those images got out? Do you know this for sure? Then what the hell are you talking about?
AlexanderS
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Re: Horrifying image of Tibetan Ani in self immolation

Post by AlexanderS »

I'm sorry if I offended anyone, but dechen norbu clarified pretty much what i meant.
Heruka
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Re: Horrifying image of Tibetan Ani in self immolation

Post by Heruka »

Dechen Norbu wrote: Seems to me your interpreting skills must be quite poor, Heruka.

no Dechen la, they are just fine and not clouded, thank you for the concern though.
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ronnewmexico
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Re: Horrifying image of Tibetan Ani in self immolation

Post by ronnewmexico »

"Then what the hell are you talking about?....as human we can never see the ultimate result of our actions or the actions of others.
So in such grey is where our chocies are made.
What is not grey in buddhism is that suicide is not ever mentioned as a option.
The closest as may have been seen here is the mention of death by lioness...that as is chod offering is not suicide. Any person familiar at all with chod would know one is not comitting suicide by offering oneself and body to others. As the buddha did with the lioness. It is simple really...that is not suicide.

That is a complete misread.So if one is reading that one is reading that wrongly.....so that is what I am talking about.
"This order considers that progress can be achieved more rapidly during a single month of self-transformation through terrifying conditions in rough terrain and in "the abode of harmful forces" than through meditating for a period of three years in towns and monasteries"....Takpo Tashi Namgyal.
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Re: Horrifying image of Tibetan Ani in self immolation

Post by Grigoris »

Heruka wrote:...simply washing it away with magical thinking means one has been indoctrinated into a system that seeks to justify such extreme acts. i wonder who has lost a grip with reality here?
If non discriminating compassion is indoctrination then feel free to call me a brainwashed Buddhoid!
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
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ronnewmexico
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Re: Horrifying image of Tibetan Ani in self immolation

Post by ronnewmexico »

A cow then be the most potent example of bodhisattava.

ONe arrives at nondiscrimination of compassion, but discrimination is the tool aspect of awareness which puts us in that place,

To first disallow discrimination and then act in that fashion with not wisdom aspect, aspect of consciousness known to be discriminating aspect....


one may unfortunately be as well reborn a cow..giving meat food milk and even her offspring to others without in the main a word or notion of protest.
I should then aspire to such a rebirth?

No I will discriminate.
When I find all is equal I with my discrimination will say....my discrimination in this matter is not of significance. Before then I will not say that.
"This order considers that progress can be achieved more rapidly during a single month of self-transformation through terrifying conditions in rough terrain and in "the abode of harmful forces" than through meditating for a period of three years in towns and monasteries"....Takpo Tashi Namgyal.
muni
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Re: Horrifying image of Tibetan Ani in self immolation

Post by muni »

Interview H H Karmapa "These desperate acts … are a cry against the injustice and repression under which they live," he said.

But he added: "I request the people of Tibet to preserve their lives and find other, constructive ways to work for the cause of Tibet."

"The situation is unbearably difficult, but in difficult situations we need greater courage and determination."

Drawing on both his religion and the wider challenges facing Tibetans he added: "Most of those who have died have been very young. They had a long future ahead of them, an opportunity to contribute in ways that they have now foregone. In Buddhist teaching life is precious. To achieve anything worthwhile we need to preserve our lives. We Tibetans are few in number, so every Tibetan life is of value to the cause of Tibet.Although the situation is difficult, we need to live long and stay strong without losing sight of our long term goals.
http://buddhism.about.com/b/2011/11/12/ ... icides.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Dechen Norbu
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Re: Horrifying image of Tibetan Ani in self immolation

Post by Dechen Norbu »

What did you expect him to say? He can't, in any circumstance, encourage or condone this sort of behavior publicly. And generally such behavior is indeed not advised. Birds of prey would immediately attack him, or HHDL, as birds of play are already capitalizing on the ani's sacrifice. Beijing for one and surely not alone. I would not advise someone to set himself on fire! Yet this doesn't grant me the right to judge Ani's behavior or the results of it. We are not talking generally, but of a very specific case which I don't dare to judge.
To me you guys just look bad, judging her actions instead of only wishing her well. If not something else, it would be a matter of decorum.
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ronnewmexico
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Re: Horrifying image of Tibetan Ani in self immolation

Post by ronnewmexico »

If the karmapa or HHDL for that matter wanted not to address the issue as it speaks of political issues which may have implications of a untoward sort he and HHDL would do what they always do in such matters....state they have not a informed opinion on the issue or stay silent on the issue.

This is certainly not matching to the Karmapas statement versed. A clear statement is made quite unequivocal.

To add...I believe everyone here..... certainly on this thread wishes this person well. That we disagree with her means does not mean we do not wish her well.
I would bare her karma if I could..I cannot, so she must bare it.
I hold no bodhisattava vow.... most/many here do....certainly all here would bare the result of her transgression and poor choice.....if they could....sorrowfully they cannot.
What happens to her....I don't know.... can't read that story don't even know her.
A nobel courageous person of great great faith I can assume. Unfortunately even those on board such ships of great design and great attribute do go off sinking at times.

That we notice they have floundered and run aground to be dashed upon the rocks by no means says we wish them not well.
WE do but can do nothing. We are not that ship nor the sea. Only she may suffer if wreng choice be made.
That we discuss what may be wrong or right in such matters means only we want to prevent ours or other ship from similiar floundering.
"This order considers that progress can be achieved more rapidly during a single month of self-transformation through terrifying conditions in rough terrain and in "the abode of harmful forces" than through meditating for a period of three years in towns and monasteries"....Takpo Tashi Namgyal.
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Dechen Norbu
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Re: Horrifying image of Tibetan Ani in self immolation

Post by Dechen Norbu »

ronnewmexico wrote:If the karmapa or HHDL for that matter wanted not to address the issue as it speaks of political issues which may have implications of a untoward sort he and HHDL would do what they always do in such matters....state they have not a informed opinion on the issue or stay silent on the issue.
Saying nothing would be used against them as if they were tacit condoning such action, thus inciting similar ones. Even advising people not to do such things (very wisely), there are those who use this episode to criticize HHDL.
This is certainly not matching to the Karmapas statement versed. A clear statement is made quite unequivocal.
Can you prove me the Karmapa is more achieved than that ani? No. Then, not knowing the attainments of the ani, I prefer not to judge. We've plenty examples in TB tradition of extreme behavior by achieved practitioners. In the past, it's acceptable, in the present it is not? I'd say HHDL and the Karmapa advised well. People shouldn't set themselves on fire. I didn't read their words criticizing the ani directly.
To add...I believe everyone here..... certainly on this thread wishes this person well. That we disagree with her means does not mean we do not wish her well.
I would bare her karma if I could..I cannot, so she must bare it.
You don't know her karma or merits. May you share her merits. As for karma, better thinking about your own, Ron. You can disagree with her action. This doesn't mean you're right.
I hold no bodhisattava vow.... most/many here do....certainly all here would bare the result of her transgression and poor choice.....if they could....sorrowfully they cannot.
What happens to her....I don't know.... can't read that story don't even know her.
If you don't know what happens to her or the results of her action, why do you call it a transgression and a poor choice? Achieved practitioners no longer need the fence of discipline to protect their practice. You do. Yet you judge her actions without knowing how achieved she was. This is arrogance.
A nobel courageous person of great great faith I can assume. Unfortunately even those on board such ships of great design and great attribute do go off sinking at times.
blah, blha, beautiful words only to call her a fool. Come one...
That we notice they have floundered and run aground to be dashed upon the rocks by no means says we wish them not well.
WE do but can do nothing.
You can stop judging her publicly. That's a way of not increasing her negative karmic potential, if any.
We are not that ship nor the sea. Only she may suffer if wreng choice be made.
That we discuss what may be wrong or right in such matters means only we want to prevent ours or other ship from similiar floundering.
I'm sure those suffering and being massacred in Tibet are reading your post carefully. What are you afraid of? That some western loony sets himself on fire to free Tibet? It's difficult enough to get people signing petitions without having trouble, let alone the rest... if I were you I would pay less attention to the ani's episode and spend more time writing about what caused it. In that I can see some benefit, friend.

Best wishes.
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Re: Horrifying image of Tibetan Ani in self immolation

Post by Heruka »

Dechen Norbu wrote:If not something else, it would be a matter of decorum.

dechen la, you have my respect but,
i think that setting oneself on fire goes beyond the simple sentimentality of decorum. if you choose to continue to justify such actions, and we are not in some metaphorical realm of maybes and perhaps, but really, in real a way, because it really happend, to feel the flames lick your bones and the devil bite your ass you had better be right on point with your justification and decorum for suicide.
Last edited by Heruka on Sun Nov 27, 2011 3:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Horrifying image of Tibetan Ani in self immolation

Post by Heruka »

ron, you got my love and blessing brother!
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Re: Horrifying image of Tibetan Ani in self immolation

Post by Yontan »

Heruka wrote: if you choose to continue to justify such actions...
Show where he has justified ani's actions....

I'm coming to this late, but I agree with everything Dechen has said.
We simply do not know. Now, don't go lighting yourself on fire.

Seems the big issue centers on getting a consensual buddhism-at-large refutation of the practice of self-immolation. We need to let that one go. We all agree that buddhists shouldn't drink a bunch of alcohol, but Trungpa Rinpoche happened to discover a very heavy terma while emptying a bottle of Scotch in a cave, if I heard the story right. Practicing that terma doesn't mean I need to condone or indulge in heavy drinking. A buddhist should certainly not encourage another to light himself on fire for a political cause, but we also would not encourage someone to feed himself to a tiger. Will her actions save others?

Ani's actions will have effects, no doubt about that. What those effects are? We must exercise wisdom. It would be nice to see Tibet autonomous and the lineages able to practice freely. It would be nice if oppressive governments the world over would fall and make way for more self-rule. It would be nice if things were nice.
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Re: Horrifying image of Tibetan Ani in self immolation

Post by Heruka »

Yontan wrote:
Heruka wrote: if you choose to continue to justify such actions...
Show where he has justified ani's actions....

I'm coming to this late, but I agree with everything Dechen has said.
We simply do not know. Now, don't go lighting yourself on fire.

Seems the big issue centers on getting a consensual buddhism-at-large refutation of the practice of self-immolation. We need to let that one go. We all agree that buddhists shouldn't drink a bunch of alcohol, but Trungpa Rinpoche happened to discover a very heavy terma while emptying a bottle of Scotch in a cave, if I heard the story right. Practicing that terma doesn't mean I need to condone or indulge in heavy drinking. A buddhist should certainly not encourage another to light himself on fire for a political cause, but we also would not encourage someone to feed himself to a tiger. Will her actions save others?

Ani's actions will have effects, no doubt about that. What those effects are? We must exercise wisdom. It would be nice to see Tibet autonomous and the lineages able to practice freely. It would be nice if oppressive governments the world over would fall and make way for more self-rule. It would be nice if things were nice.

dear yotnan la, making aspirations for a better day is always positive intention of a bodhisattva, this is not in question....
but such extreme act, makes for heavy karma. the realms do not need heavy karma, but purification. setting one self on fire only creates heavy karma, I am not a five year old that needs to be told it is somehow different, i can see quite well thank you.

life is so very precious.

An ani la, in shakyamuni buddhas sanghas robes, regardless of external enemy should know better.

so i say with heart felt love, respect and compassion, please stop!






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