Primordial stains ?

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Merely Labeled
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Primordial stains ?

Post by Merely Labeled »

Our basic nature is empty and cognizant since beginningless time.

How did the obscurations form ?

Where do they come from ?

How did the stainless Buddha nature become stained, ... or was it never free of stains ?

So the 3 poisons/delusions were always part of it ?

What was the cause that led to the first so-called unvirtous action which had a negative karmic result and from which karmic cause did this first cause come from ?

M.L.
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Konchog1
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Re: Primordial stains ?

Post by Konchog1 »

I've wondered this too.
Equanimity is the ground. Love is the moisture. Compassion is the seed. Bodhicitta is the result.

-Paraphrase of Khensur Rinpoche Lobsang Tsephel citing the Guhyasamaja Tantra

"All memories and thoughts are the union of emptiness and knowing, the Mind.
Without attachment, self-liberating, like a snake in a knot.
Through the qualities of meditating in that way,
Mental obscurations are purified and the dharmakaya is attained."

-Ra Lotsawa, All-pervading Melodious Drumbeats
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ronnewmexico
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Re: Primordial stains ?

Post by ronnewmexico »

I think there will be many differing ways of answering this...here is mine :smile: .

The original disception that starts the karmic ball rolling is the inception of aversion and attachment. Tthe establishment of a me(internal concept) impells that particular discrimination.

When did it all start....it starts anew with every rebirth when we basically are led to that place of first discrimination. NOt perhaps even noticed but our habits lead us quickly from the first, no subject object dicatomy to me other to like dislike and on and on.

So it is not like a place of first starting with first bad ignorant decision, but a case of first starting with another rebirth, death of old.... decision(unconsicously of course) of path and then birth into a place.
Beings here and places being as we are all restarts with the basic ignorance. Without the ignornance for us it is quickly gone immediately....as if it all never existed. For others then it is their creation. It remains for them not us. It and its perceptive field to include time and lineal progression we now see...delusional.

So for me by my opinion....it all starts anew for us each time. If we were not as we are.... ignorant it would simply not restart....so the only first point is the first point between the last life and the start of another. Each time for us it is completely a new decision and new restart.
So we are here we know we are ignorant for any means by which we can determine....always.
We never were not ignorant. What is understaning in a finally considered sense cannot become nonunderstanding. WE understand in this context a thing...we do not misunderstand it after we do. Finally considered this is not to be like talking of a conventional alzheimers patient forgetting their name.
Finally considered by the furthest extent of logic considered within that specific context of ultimate understanding or ignorance of things.


The cause of the continual ignorance that propels us I have heard it described as a type of fear we are alone or insufficient. The tendency to solid..... make it all solid..... is to a overheightening of the aware aspect of our consciousness to the detriment of the empty aspect...so we make tendencies and such real solid objects of birth and so forth...
"This order considers that progress can be achieved more rapidly during a single month of self-transformation through terrifying conditions in rough terrain and in "the abode of harmful forces" than through meditating for a period of three years in towns and monasteries"....Takpo Tashi Namgyal.
dakini_boi
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Re: Primordial stains ?

Post by dakini_boi »

see: http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=66&t=5605" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Primordial stains ?

Post by heart »

Ignorance is the root of all obscuration and ignorance is not recognizing our Buddha nature. Everything else follow from that. So ignorance is not inherent because then enlightenment would be impossible. Kuntuzangpo never fell into ignorance. It is a complicated subject, not sure this is the right place to discuss it.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
Merely Labeled
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Re: Primordial stains ?

Post by Merely Labeled »

I just read through viewtopic.php?f=66&t=5605, thank you for that hint.
There is no answer either.

What I wonder about too is:
Why didn`t a primordial Buddha (Kuntuzangpo) fall into ignorance ?

And then, why shouldn`t this topic be dicussed here ?

Many many questions.

I am a serious practitioner since 2004 and do not take these topics lightly.
At some point these questions should be addressed.

Off course I could go to my teacher and ask.
But aren`t we (in the so-called) West mature enought to openely share our knowledge and talk about questions which everybody has at some point of practice ?

Even if as a result we find out that nobody has an answer (so far),.... that`s already something.

Thank you,

M.L.
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Re: Primordial stains ?

Post by heart »

Kuntuzangpo recognized his nature and for this reason didn't fall into ignorance. There is a detail account on this subject in the Dzogchen Tantras and I am afraid I am not capable of explaining it so it would satisfy you here. This is why I don't feel like discussing, my own limits only. Perhaps Namdrol could help?
Also, this is only for Dzogchen and to my knowledge there is no explanation at all in the Sarma Tantras, but perhaps I am wrong about that.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
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Re: Primordial stains ?

Post by heart »

The Dzogchen explanation of this is actually available for all in a book called "Myriad Worlds", start with reading that.

Old version: http://www.amazon.com/Myriad-Worlds-Cos ... 1559390336" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

New version: http://www.amazon.com/Treasury-Knowledg ... 56-3019530" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
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padma norbu
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Re: Primordial stains ?

Post by padma norbu »

I think the easiest way to try to understand it is to recognize that pristine primordial awareness is free from conceptual elaboration, but naturally and endlessly flows with creative energy which becomes conceptual elaboration. If you are remaining quietly observing your awareness, slowly concepts and visions will die down in your awareness and you might become aware of just one thing, like your breathing, for example. If you can become aware of awareness all the time throughout the day, you have amazing mind-control which is highly unusual. So, primordially, imagine an invisible awareness filling up with the energy of conceptual elaboration. The awareness itself is what is in fact aware, so it never falls from awareness, which is the pure and clear nature to cognize and recognize. However, when it fixates on the energy of conceptual elaboration, it is not being aware of its pure self but instead it is focusing on many different things that seem increasingly interesting. Underneath these myriad of forms which will continue indefinitely because this energy of mind is unceasing, there is still the pristine, clear light of awareness which illuminates all phenomena. Sitting here, observing these words, one needs the pure ineffable quality of awareness to observe, interpret and impute meaning to any experience, but this awareness itself is barely recognized as it is filled with all manner of conceptual elaborations. It is like using a kaleidoscope as a telescope, wondering why we can't see a very long distance as we keep turning to be mesmerized by the beautiful colors a few inches in front of our face.
"Use what seems like poison as medicine. We can use our personal suffering as the path to compassion for all beings." Pema Chodron
Zenda
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Re: Primordial stains ?

Post by Zenda »

http://users.snowcrest.net/padmapublish ... s/djkr.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Go to page 108. I find the analogy of the dirt and the cloth very helpful.
Malcolm
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Re: Primordial stains ?

Post by Malcolm »

Merely Labeled wrote: Why didn`t a primordial Buddha (Kuntuzangpo) fall into ignorance ?
Samantabhadra also possessed ignorance.

N
dakini_boi
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Re: Primordial stains ?

Post by dakini_boi »

Namdrol wrote:
Samantabhadra also possessed ignorance.

N
How is Samantabhadra's ignorance different from sentient beings' ignorance?
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padma norbu
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Re: Primordial stains ?

Post by padma norbu »

dakini_boi wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
Samantabhadra also possessed ignorance.

N
How is Samantabhadra's ignorance different from sentient beings' ignorance?
per http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.ph ... 0&start=20" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Namdrol wrote: Even Samantabhadra first possessed ignorance.
booker wrote: Hello Lopon

How do you relate to what you just said the following from ChNNR (in "Dzogchen Teachings"):
ChNNR wrote: Generally speaking, it is explained that one who is in the state of instant presence from the beginning and is never distracted has knowledge or understanding. Thatat primordial understanding is called Samantabhadra, which is the symbol of the Ati Buddha—the primordial Buddha that since the beginning has never been conditioned by dualistic vision. If we don’t have this knowledge or understanding, there is no way we can realize or get into that state
Namdrol wrote:Dualistic vision arises from the second ignorance, the imputing ignorance; not from the first ignorance, innate ignorance.

N
booker wrote: That would mean the primordial understanding has the innate ignorance. Right? Which is quite a contradiction. Since Samantabhadra is "the one who is in the state of instant presence from the beginning and is never distracted" how can it ever had any ignorance in the first place?
Namdrol wrote:In order to understand this, you need to study the process of Samantabhadra's liberation. When you do so, you will discover than Samantabhadra was not always liberated. Then you will understand that Samantabhadra possessed innate ignorance, but not imputing ignorance. Innate ignorance is simply unknowing. Imputing ignorance causes dualistic vision.

N
booker wrote:Hello Lopon

Where can I read about the process of Samantabhadra's liberation? I could not find antything like that in the Kunjed Gyalpo, can you point me to the passage saying about this process?

In conclusion, at the end of this book ChNNR says Samantabhadra was never stained, nor it would know the limiting concept of liberation, or "first".
Namdrol wrote:The process of the liberation of Samantabhadra is proper to man ngag sde. You will not find anything about it in sems sde, at all, not even a little bit. You can read about it in the eleven topics of Dzogchen Nyinthig.

The innate ignorance is not a "stain" per say. It is not an afflictive ignorance, it is a simple absence of knowing.

Basically, at the point the basis arises from the basis, there is a neutral awareness present in the basis. That neutral awareness has no self-knowledge until the basis arises. While it is not aware of itself, it is in a state of non-afflictive ignorance.

When it apprehends the five lights, it apprehends them either as its own display, resulting in nirvana, Samantabhadra, etc., or it does not, resulting in samsara. The Tantra That Uproots Delusion:

Knowing the energy of the svābhavakāya
as their own appearance produced buddhas;
being mistaken about their own appearance produced sentient beings.


Afflictive ignorance comes from the dualistic vision produced by imputing ignorance.

N
booker wrote:Hm I think the problem is how is that Primordial Wisdom is obscured in the first place (what gives a rise to sentient beings like us).
Sönam wrote:may by not (re) cognizing ... that's why there is innate ignorance.

Sönam
booker wrote:Yes, but I guess this boils down to the fact, that since it's a self-aware wisdom, how come the ignorance could possibly happen.
Namdrol wrote:Well, there is one really good reason -- there is no such thing as a "self-aware wisdom" -- it's a translation botch.

so sor rang gyis rig pa'i ye she is the translation of a common term in Mahāyāna Buddhism namely, "pratyatmyavedanajñāna" which means "personally (pratyatmya) intuited (vedana) gnosis (jñāna)" or in simpler terms "wisdom that one knows personally", wisdom that one personally experiences, and so on.

Therefore, contradiction solved.

N
booker wrote:Hold on a minute :)

Natural State unrecognised is a base for Samsara.
Natural State recognised is a base for Nirvana.

Right?

If Rigpa can be also dualistic and ilussion it would be also a base for Samsara, but it's not. Right? Marigpa is a base of Samsara, and is never a base of Nirvana. And Rigpa is never base of Samsara, is only for Nirvana. So Rigpa can not be dualistic and illusion. Margipa is.

Right?
Namdrol wrote:Natural state is not rigpa. Rigpa is one's knowledge, or recognition, of the natural state.
"Use what seems like poison as medicine. We can use our personal suffering as the path to compassion for all beings." Pema Chodron
dakini_boi
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Re: Primordial stains ?

Post by dakini_boi »

Thanks, Padma. It's confusing though, I'll have to reread it.
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padma norbu
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Re: Primordial stains ?

Post by padma norbu »

It might make more sense if you just follow from page 2 of that thread til the end or around page 4.
"Use what seems like poison as medicine. We can use our personal suffering as the path to compassion for all beings." Pema Chodron
alwayson
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Re: Primordial stains ?

Post by alwayson »

I actually have already compiled most of Namdrol's posts on the Basis (from multiple threads), reorganizing things into order:

It is important to understand three things: the general original basis, the reality of the basis, and how ignorance manifests. In addition to that it is necessary to know that Garab Dorje's commentary on the Single Son of the Buddha's tantras supplies a necessary understanding that will be addressed below at the section on the arising of the basis.

The Unwritten Tantra (Yi ge med pa) describes how the general original basis exists:

“There is no object to investigate within the view of self-originated wisdom: nothing went before, nothing happens later, nothing is present now at all. Action does not exist. Traces do not exist. Ignorance does not exist. Mind does not exist. Discriminating wisdom does not exist. Samsara does not exist. Nirvana does not exist. Even vidyā itself does not exist i.e. nothing at all appears in wisdom. That arose from not grasping anything.”

This is the state of original purity, The Blazing Lamp says:
"Within initial original purity
the nature is like so:
not made by anyone, manifesting naturally,
the nature is already just so."


In this state, The Rosary of Pearls states:
"The mere term delusion cannot be described
within the original purity of the initial state,
likewise, how can there be non-delusion?
Therefore, pure of delusion from the beginning."


The Heart Mirror states “All phenomena of the basis must be understood as the trio of essence, nature and compassion. All phenomena of the essence must be understood as emptiness. All phenomena of the nature must be understood as luminosity. All phenomena of compassion must be understood as pervading all sentient beings.”

So, of course, there must be essence, nature and compassion, timelessly present as the basis. Without these wisdoms, there can be no nirvana and no samsara. Padmasambhava states in the Clear Mirror:

"Those three wisdoms pervade Samantabhadra and sentient beings down to the tiniest creature without any discrimination of good or bad, high or low."

Since these three wisdoms are themselves not established in anyway at all, we can be sure we are free from eternalism. Since these three natures always appear, we are free from annihilationism.

In the system of the Dzogchen Nyinghig three causes of ignorance are described -- those three are essence, nature and compassion. This is why there are three ignorances in this system. The system of explanation of Gongpa Zangthal is a little different, with only two ignorances -- we will continue with the Dzogchen Nyinthig system.

According to Garab Dorje, prior to the arising of the basis which is latent during the dark eon interval, nevertheless there are traces of affliction and action remaining from the previous eon. Because of these traces, the basis is stirred, the five lights appear and so on (this is why the Dzogchen doctrine of two different kinds of Buddhahood is critical -- the first, the buddhahood that reverts to the basis is the buddhahood asserted by all lower vehicles. The buddhahood that does not revert to the basis is the preserve of only Dzogchen).

The Gongpa Zangthal cycle supplies that during the arising of basis (when the five lights of wisdom are stirred by vāyu after the shell of the youthful vase body is rent) there is a neutral awareness (shes pa lung ma bstan) in the basis that does not recognize itself. This simple non-recognition is the innate ignorance. When this neutral awareness cognizes the five lights there is a dividing line between nirvana and samsara. When a neutral awareness recognizes the appearance of the basis as its own appearances it is is prajñā and is immediately liberated. That is Samantabhadra. A neutral awareness that does not recognize appearances as its own appearances immediately is the imputing ignorance, and samsara begins (again) because subject and object is imputed. That imputation of self and other is the imputing ignorance. Samsara is created through imputing self and other onto the appearance of the basis. This is all very clearly explained in detail in the eleven topics of Dzogchen Nyinthig. This is also clearly explained by Khenpo Ngawang Palzang.

To reiterate, after the basis arises, innate ignorance is first and even Samantabhadra has it. There is period where a neutral awareness does not recognize itself in any way. That is the innate ignorance. It (the neutral awareness) can only recognize itself through the display of five lights. When it recognizes that display as its own display, then this is the liberation of Samantabhadra without the performance of an iota of virtue. We on the other hand did not recognize these five lights as our own display, and for us, samsara began, without even an particle of non-virtue having been done.

The innate ignorance is not a "stain" per say. It is not an afflictive ignorance, it is a simple absence of knowing.

Basically, at the point the basis arises from the basis, there is a neutral awareness present in the basis. That neutral awareness has no self-knowledge until the basis arises. While it is not aware of itself, it is in a state of non-afflictive ignorance.

When it apprehends the five lights, it apprehends them either as its own display, resulting in nirvana, Samantabhadra, etc., or it does not, resulting in samsara. The Tantra That Uproots Delusion:

Knowing the energy of the svābhavakāya
as their own appearance produced buddhas;
being mistaken about their own appearance produced sentient beings.


Afflictive ignorance comes from the dualistic vision produced by imputing ignorance.

According to Dzogchen teachings, all sentient beings attain Buddhahood by the end of the eon -- this is very clearly stated by Garab Dorje in the commentary above. But there are two kinds of Buddhahood, and as said above, there is only Buddhahood that does not revert to the basis, and that is the Buddhahood attained through Dzogchen methods. The Buddhahood of other vehicles reverts to the basis, without the corresponding result. What lower yānas terms "Buddhahood" is what Dzogchen terms "buddhahood that reverts to the basis". This notion of "Buddhahood that reverts to the basis [gzhi, not kun gzhi]" as an inferior incomplete buddhahood is well attested in Dzogchen. It has to be the case because as Garab Dorje points out, all sentient beings in the previous eon attain buddhahood by the end of the eon.

In Dzogchen, there is a difference between the basis and the result. The difference is simply vidyā and avidyā and the recognition and non-recognition that comes from those. Vidyā is recognition of the basis. Avidyā is non-recognition of the basis. The basis is essence, nature and compassion. Essence, nature and compassion are present whether they are recognized or not. The basis is not Buddhahood. If the basis were Buddhahood, there would be no need for any kind of recognition. Dzogchen tantras however may speak of Buddhahood as the basis in a figurative poetic way, since Buddhahood is what is realized at the end of the path

Further, it is not enough merely to understand the general original basis. One must also understand the human body as a basis. There are two explanations of the basis in Dzogchen: the general basis and the body as the basis. The second depends on the first, and the path depends on the second.

Essence, nature and compassion is the basis for all phenomena including the mind. It is quite different than the ālaya which is a key feature of Sakya and Kagyu Mahāmudra teachings.

Note compassion does not require sentient beings. A Buddha's compassion has not objects. Compassion is part of the natural state of the original basis whether there are sentient beings or not.
Last edited by alwayson on Tue Nov 29, 2011 6:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
alwayson
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Re: Primordial stains ?

Post by alwayson »

dakini_boi wrote:Thanks, Padma. It's confusing though, I'll have to reread it.

Basically 'Samantabhadra possessed ignorance' is a teaching device which counteracts the notion that we somehow knew our real condition at some point, and then we forgot.

We never knew our real condition until we received direct introduction, even though it is indeed our natural state.

Ignorance is first. Then you gain rigpa (knowledge).
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heart
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Re: Primordial stains ?

Post by heart »

alwayson wrote:
dakini_boi wrote:Thanks, Padma. It's confusing though, I'll have to reread it.

Basically 'Samantabhadra possessed ignorance' is a teaching device which counteracts the notion that we somehow knew our real condition at some point, and then we forgot.

We never knew our real condition until we received direct introduction, even though it is indeed our natural state.

Ignorance is first. Then you gain rigpa (knowledge).
In all the texts I have, including the suggested reading above, it is actually said that the state was one of neither knowing nor not knowing. So, neither ignorance nor knowledge was the primordial ground. Then at the time of the ground display arising from ground there was the reaction of either ignorance and knowledge. So Kuntuzangpo recognized his own nature and sentient beings did not. So ignorance wasn't first, it was a neutral stage of neither knowing nor not knowing.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
alwayson
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Re: Primordial stains ?

Post by alwayson »

heart wrote:
alwayson wrote:
dakini_boi wrote:Thanks, Padma. It's confusing though, I'll have to reread it.

Basically 'Samantabhadra possessed ignorance' is a teaching device which counteracts the notion that we somehow knew our real condition at some point, and then we forgot.

We never knew our real condition until we received direct introduction, even though it is indeed our natural state.

Ignorance is first. Then you gain rigpa (knowledge).
In all the texts I have, including the suggested reading above, it is actually said that the state was one of neither knowing nor not knowing. So, neither ignorance nor knowledge was the primordial ground. Then at the time of the ground display arising from ground there was the reaction of either ignorance and knowledge. So Kuntuzangpo recognized his own nature and sentient beings did not. So ignorance wasn't first, it was a neutral stage of neither knowing nor not knowing.

/magnus

Well you didn't even know what emptiness meant so..... :juggling:
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Re: Primordial stains ?

Post by heart »

alwayson wrote:

Well you didn't even know what emptiness meant so..... :juggling:
What? Oh, I see, you are trolling. Never mind.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
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