Paramitayana and Tantrayana in Tibetan Buddhism

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Grigoris
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Re: Paramitayana and Tantrayana in Tibetan Buddhism

Post by Grigoris »

Asabandha wrote:I can't even say that ngondro is a marathon because where's the finish line?
Depends on why you are doing Ngondro. If you are doing Ngondro for the sake of doing Ngondro, well then yes, there is no "finish line". If you are doing Ngondro because you want to develop the necessary basis to move towards another practice, well, then there is a "finish line". Either way, the benefit is immeasurable!
:namaste:
Last edited by Grigoris on Tue Dec 13, 2011 10:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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conebeckham
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Re: Paramitayana and Tantrayana in Tibetan Buddhism

Post by conebeckham »

Caz wrote:The thing is with the Mahayana elements in Tibetan Buddhism they are aimed at elevating practitoners to the Tantric path the Old Kadam school while they primarily focused on Lamrim as their main practice they also practiced various Tantric meditations as well, In other schools there is no practice of Lamrim instead they practice a very condensed version of Sutra in the form of the preliminaries of building merit and so forth but even in these preliminaries they are mainly focused untoward Tantra,Even the Nyingmpas the have the preliminary practice of the 4 thoughts that turn the mind. But outside of the Old Kadampas and their decendents you will not really find a school wide practice of Sutra teachings.
Caz, you've been misinformed, I think.

First of all, the descendents of the Old Kadampas include the Dakpo Kagyupas-all the lineages stemming from Dakpo Larje, Gampopa, as well as many other lineages currently existent. Gampopa's Jewel Ornament (TharGyen) is a Lam Rim text, and Atisha's text was definitely an inspiration for that. The Jonang Lama Jetsun Taranatha also wrote a wonderful Lam Rim text, my personal favorite. It's still very much in use in Shangpa retreats and associated monasteries. I imagine the Jonang use it as well. I should also mention the LoJong DondunMa, or Seven Points of Mind Training, which is not strictly a Lam Rim text, but is associated with the Kadampa lineage. Even the great Sakya "Three Visions" is really a Lam Rim, and is very much taught, studied, and practiced in the Sakya Tradition. The "Kunzang Lamai Shelung," or "Words of my Perfect Teacher," is also a Lam Rim--in a sense--though the second half deals more specifically with the Tantric Ngondro of the Longchen Nyingthik, and of course the Dzokchen view puts a quite unique spin on the idea of a "graduated path."

In Shedras of other the students focus very much on Sutra teachings, including the Shastras of course. These studies and topics are quite a bit more elaborate and detailed than your typical Lam Rim presentation, in fact. But even outside the Shedras, the topics of the Lam Rim are stressed for all students, and are the very backbone of one's daily life and practice. Of course, the methodology and presentation of such topics will differ from that of Tsong Khapa and the Gelukpas.

No doubt there are differences in the presentation and understanding of Lam Rim amongst all the lineages, but saying that "Other schools don't practice Lam Rim, and only a very condensed version of sutra" is incorrect.

For that matter, Lam Rim itself could be described as a "very condensed version of sutra."
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
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Dechen Norbu
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Re: Paramitayana and Tantrayana in Tibetan Buddhism

Post by Dechen Norbu »

Don't you see he is just one step behind from saying here that new kadampas are the real descendants of old kadampas? :roll:
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conebeckham
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Re: Paramitayana and Tantrayana in Tibetan Buddhism

Post by conebeckham »

Perhaps, but he'd be wrong, if he said that.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
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Dechen Norbu
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Re: Paramitayana and Tantrayana in Tibetan Buddhism

Post by Dechen Norbu »

Indeed.
Caz
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Re: Paramitayana and Tantrayana in Tibetan Buddhism

Post by Caz »

conebeckham wrote:Perhaps, but he'd be wrong, if he said that.
My Mistake I forgot to mention the others as well :smile:

Dechen Please stop with the childish remarks :namaste:
Abandoning Dharma is, in the final analysis, disparaging the Hinayana because of the Mahayana; favoring the Hinayana on account of the Mahayana; playing off sutra against tantra; playing off the four classes of the tantras against each other; favoring one of the Tibetan schools—the Sakya, Gelug, Kagyu, or Nyingma—and disparaging the rest; and so on. In other words, we abandon Dharma any time we favor our own tenets and disparage the rest.

Liberation in the Palm of your hand~Kyabje Pabongkha Rinpoche.
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Dechen Norbu
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Re: Paramitayana and Tantrayana in Tibetan Buddhism

Post by Dechen Norbu »

Caz wrote: My Mistake I forgot to mention the others as well :smile:

Dechen Please stop with the childish remarks :namaste:
Of course you did! It was perfectly innocent, I'm sure.Image
Caz
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Re: Paramitayana and Tantrayana in Tibetan Buddhism

Post by Caz »

Dechen Norbu wrote:
Caz wrote: My Mistake I forgot to mention the others as well :smile:

Dechen Please stop with the childish remarks :namaste:
Of course you did! It was perfectly innocent, I'm sure.Image
Sure it was :thumbsup:
It prompted a reply that elaborates upon more practices of Lamrim then I am familiar with so it was not just helpful for me but for others as well.
are you going to play nicely ? :smile:
Abandoning Dharma is, in the final analysis, disparaging the Hinayana because of the Mahayana; favoring the Hinayana on account of the Mahayana; playing off sutra against tantra; playing off the four classes of the tantras against each other; favoring one of the Tibetan schools—the Sakya, Gelug, Kagyu, or Nyingma—and disparaging the rest; and so on. In other words, we abandon Dharma any time we favor our own tenets and disparage the rest.

Liberation in the Palm of your hand~Kyabje Pabongkha Rinpoche.
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Dechen Norbu
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Re: Paramitayana and Tantrayana in Tibetan Buddhism

Post by Dechen Norbu »

What I'm going to do from now on is not letting you play as you want. Even hinting something as you tried to to gets my attention. You were called on it, nothing else, so that you know that we aren't sleeping over here :smile:
I won't play nicely because I'm not playing at all.
Lets stop this dialogue as it has no relevance to this topic.

So, :focus:
Asabandha
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Re: Paramitayana and Tantrayana in Tibetan Buddhism

Post by Asabandha »

gregkavarnos wrote:
Asabandha wrote:I can't even say that ngondro is a marathon because where's the finish line?
Depends on why you are doing Ngondro. If you are doing Ngondro for the sake of doing Ngondro, well then yes, there is no "finish line". If you are doing Ngondro because you want to develop the necessary basis to move towards another practice, well, then there is a "finish line". Either way, the benefit is immeasurable!
:namaste:
:D True true, I guess to most accurately describe my view of ngondro... It's a marathon where at the "end" I just keep running! *grin*

This thread served the purpose of clarifying for me the Sutra and Tantra paths. I am comfortable with the idea of Sutra practice being a preliminary to Tantra, forming the ground for it so to speak. I read somewhere about Tantra that realization of emptiness prior to initial abheseki is preferable, but a highly developed understanding is acceptable. I'm developing patience... I don't need to jump into Tantra necessarily.

My intention is to find a good teacher and do whatever they say to do, nuff said.

:anjali:
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