Illusory body /rainbow body after death and rebirth

Forum for discussion of Tibetan Buddhism. Questions specific to one school are best posted in the appropriate sub-forum.
Acid_Trancer
Posts: 2
Joined: Fri Dec 16, 2011 3:23 pm

Illusory body /rainbow body after death and rebirth

Postby Acid_Trancer » Sat Jan 07, 2012 1:53 am

Hi
I hope someone can asnwer this question.

It is said that after one attains the illusory or rainbow body, that a person becomes deathless because the mind never seperates from the body anymore.
But because of the bodhsittva vow one has to stay in samsara either in the higher realms or comes back to this world again.

Does an enlightened master has to take rebirth in the higher god realms or in the human realms to fullfill his vows or can he be everywhere there without rebirth by staying simply in his illusory body ?

And if he takes rebirth in the human realm or deva realm, what happens to the illusory body, does he loses it and has to attain it again in the next life?

Thanks in advance for your answers!

User avatar
heart
Posts: 3514
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:55 pm

Re: Illusory body /rainbow body after death and rebirth

Postby heart » Sat Jan 07, 2012 5:50 pm

Illusory body is not the same thing as rainbow body. The first is method and the second is a result of the practice of Dzogchen. People who attain rainbow body don't take rebirth anymore. They continue to benefit beings as they are, for example Guru Rinpoche and Vimalamitra.

/magnus
We are all here to help each other go through this, whatever it is.
~Kurt Vonnegut

"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
- Longchenpa

"Even though you have recognized your essence, if you do not get accustomed to it,
You will be carried away by the enemy of thoughts, like a small child in a battle field.
So long as you are not free from the limitations of accepting and rejecting,
That long will you not recognize the view of the innermost secret heart-essence."

-Longchenpa

User avatar
Adamantine
Former staff member
Posts: 3513
Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2011 7:09 am
Location: Space is the Place

Re: Illusory body /rainbow body after death and rebirth

Postby Adamantine » Sun Jan 08, 2012 7:40 am

Yeah but in Nyingma we have all these tulkus like
Anam Thubten whose prior incarnations took rainbow-body..
I suppose either they are considered purely emanations not rebirths?
Any thoughts?
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha

User avatar
heart
Posts: 3514
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:55 pm

Re: Illusory body /rainbow body after death and rebirth

Postby heart » Sun Jan 08, 2012 7:52 am

I have no idea. :smile: But if you have a rainbow body rebirth just doesn't make any sense.

/magnus
We are all here to help each other go through this, whatever it is.
~Kurt Vonnegut

"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
- Longchenpa

"Even though you have recognized your essence, if you do not get accustomed to it,
You will be carried away by the enemy of thoughts, like a small child in a battle field.
So long as you are not free from the limitations of accepting and rejecting,
That long will you not recognize the view of the innermost secret heart-essence."

-Longchenpa

User avatar
Adamantine
Former staff member
Posts: 3513
Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2011 7:09 am
Location: Space is the Place

Re: Illusory body /rainbow body after death and rebirth

Postby Adamantine » Sun Jan 08, 2012 9:22 pm

At that level of accomplishment I'd think one would
be far beyond "making sense" :smile:
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 19384
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Illusory body /rainbow body after death and rebirth

Postby Malcolm » Sun Jan 08, 2012 9:41 pm

heart wrote:I have no idea. :smile: But if you have a rainbow body rebirth just doesn't make any sense.

/magnus



Khyentse Wangpo managed it. Guess this begs the question -- when is rebirth not rebirth?
http://www.atikosha.org
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


So called “sentient beings” are merely delusions self-appearing from the dhātu of luminosity.

-- Ju Mipham

User avatar
heart
Posts: 3514
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:55 pm

Re: Illusory body /rainbow body after death and rebirth

Postby heart » Sun Jan 08, 2012 9:50 pm

Namdrol wrote:
heart wrote:I have no idea. :smile: But if you have a rainbow body rebirth just doesn't make any sense.

/magnus



Khyentse Wangpo managed it. Guess this begs the question -- when is rebirth not rebirth?


Since he was Chetsun Senge Wangchuk in an earlier life?

/magnus
We are all here to help each other go through this, whatever it is.
~Kurt Vonnegut

"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
- Longchenpa

"Even though you have recognized your essence, if you do not get accustomed to it,
You will be carried away by the enemy of thoughts, like a small child in a battle field.
So long as you are not free from the limitations of accepting and rejecting,
That long will you not recognize the view of the innermost secret heart-essence."

-Longchenpa

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 19384
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Illusory body /rainbow body after death and rebirth

Postby Malcolm » Sun Jan 08, 2012 10:01 pm

heart wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
heart wrote:I have no idea. :smile: But if you have a rainbow body rebirth just doesn't make any sense.

/magnus



Khyentse Wangpo managed it. Guess this begs the question -- when is rebirth not rebirth?


Since he was Chetsun Senge Wangchuk in an earlier life?

/magnus



indeed.
http://www.atikosha.org
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


So called “sentient beings” are merely delusions self-appearing from the dhātu of luminosity.

-- Ju Mipham

pemachophel
Posts: 760
Joined: Sat Dec 25, 2010 9:19 pm
Location: Lafayette, CO

Re: Illusory body /rainbow body after death and rebirth

Postby pemachophel » Mon Jan 09, 2012 12:05 am

As far as I understand, if one achieves Rainbow Body, one can have limitless manifestations throughout space and time. Therefore, there is no limit to the number of Nirmanakayas/Tulkus one can manifest in order to work for the welfare of all sentient beings. To think otherwise in terms of Rainbow Body is to fall into the extreme of nihilism.
Pema Chophel པདྨ་ཆོས་འཕེལ

User avatar
dzogchungpa
Posts: 4150
Joined: Sat May 28, 2011 10:50 pm

Re: Illusory body /rainbow body after death and rebirth

Postby dzogchungpa » Mon Jul 30, 2012 8:14 pm

Adamantine wrote:Yeah but in Nyingma we have all these tulkus like
Anam Thubten whose prior incarnations took rainbow-body..
I suppose either they are considered purely emanations not rebirths?
Any thoughts?


Are you referring to Anam Thubten of Richmond, CA? I'm curious, who is considered to be his previous incarnation?
The truly undisturbed mind is not a private experience; it is more "public". - Dza Kilung Rinpoche

User avatar
Adamantine
Former staff member
Posts: 3513
Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2011 7:09 am
Location: Space is the Place

Re: Illusory body /rainbow body after death and rebirth

Postby Adamantine » Thu Jan 17, 2013 2:40 am

My understanding is he is the emanation of one of the disciples of Dudjom Lingpa who attained rainbow body. It seems he has eliminated reference to this from any website associated with him, I think he prefers to be humble and not broadcast these things.
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha

Yudron
Posts: 1077
Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2012 8:55 pm
Location: Sunny California
Contact:

Re: Illusory body /rainbow body after death and rebirth

Postby Yudron » Thu Jan 17, 2013 7:47 am

Adamantine wrote:My understanding is he is the emanation of one of the disciples of Dudjom Lingpa who attained rainbow body. It seems he has eliminated reference to this from any website associated with him, I think he prefers to be humble and not broadcast these things.


This is true. It was a disciple of Dudjom Lingpa's -- Anam Lama.
Author of Buddhist young adult fiction. http://www.YudronWangmo.com Vlogger at Wisdom and Compassion: Grandma Yudron's Totally Chill Vlog on Meditation and Tibetan Wisdom https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCRsrq0-64YSgUjk39DmN_Ag

deepbluehum
Posts: 1302
Joined: Sat Aug 13, 2011 2:05 am
Location: San Francisco, CA

Re: Illusory body /rainbow body after death and rebirth

Postby deepbluehum » Thu Jan 17, 2013 6:37 pm

A rainbow body can manifest in limitless ways.

User avatar
dzogchungpa
Posts: 4150
Joined: Sat May 28, 2011 10:50 pm

Re: Illusory body /rainbow body after death and rebirth

Postby dzogchungpa » Tue Jan 22, 2013 4:01 am

Yudron wrote:This is true. It was a disciple of Dudjom Lingpa's -- Anam Lama.

Thanks, you are correct. I found this:
http://www.ksbcenter.org/Pages/Tulku.htm
The truly undisturbed mind is not a private experience; it is more "public". - Dza Kilung Rinpoche

User avatar
dzogchungpa
Posts: 4150
Joined: Sat May 28, 2011 10:50 pm

Re: Illusory body /rainbow body after death and rebirth

Postby dzogchungpa » Tue Jan 29, 2013 3:06 am

Yudron wrote:
Adamantine wrote:My understanding is he is the emanation of one of the disciples of Dudjom Lingpa who attained rainbow body. It seems he has eliminated reference to this from any website associated with him, I think he prefers to be humble and not broadcast these things.


This is true. It was a disciple of Dudjom Lingpa's -- Anam Lama.


I found references to Anam Wangchen in "A Clear Mirror: The Visionary Autobiography of a Tibetan Master" by Dudjom Lingpa

http://books.google.com/books?id=9f_usAen69oC&q=anam

Is this who you are referring to?
The truly undisturbed mind is not a private experience; it is more "public". - Dza Kilung Rinpoche

Yudron
Posts: 1077
Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2012 8:55 pm
Location: Sunny California
Contact:

Re: Illusory body /rainbow body after death and rebirth

Postby Yudron » Tue Jan 29, 2013 6:55 am

dzogchungpa wrote:
Yudron wrote:
Adamantine wrote:My understanding is he is the emanation of one of the disciples of Dudjom Lingpa who attained rainbow body. It seems he has eliminated reference to this from any website associated with him, I think he prefers to be humble and not broadcast these things.


This is true. It was a disciple of Dudjom Lingpa's -- Anam Lama.


I found references to Anam Wangchen in "A Clear Mirror: The Visionary Autobiography of a Tibetan Master" by Dudjom Lingpa

http://books.google.com/books?id=9f_usAen69oC&q=anam

Is this who you are referring to?


Presumably. I think Anam Thubten's old bio, back when he was Tulku Thubten Rinpoche, referred to his prior incarnation as Anam Lama. But Wangchen--Great Power Anam--sounds good, too. You know, Dudjom RInpoche was an incarnation of Guru RInpoche, Yeshe Tsogyal, and Kheuchung Lotsawa--so these things happen.
Author of Buddhist young adult fiction. http://www.YudronWangmo.com Vlogger at Wisdom and Compassion: Grandma Yudron's Totally Chill Vlog on Meditation and Tibetan Wisdom https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCRsrq0-64YSgUjk39DmN_Ag

greentara
Posts: 933
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2012 4:03 am

Re: Illusory body /rainbow body after death and rebirth

Postby greentara » Tue Jan 29, 2013 7:49 am

In Thailand Ajaan Panya’s remains were cremated at Baan Taad Forest Monastery. "His funeral ceremony was the largest event ever held there—an estimated 50,000 people attended to pay their final respects, including over 4,000 monks. Something extraordinary occurred on the day of his cremation. The sky was clear and cloudless. Yet, on 3 separate occasions, a circular rainbow appeared in the clear blue sky, each time encircling the sun like a large, luminous halo. The rainbow first appeared as his casket was being placed on the funeral pyre; it appeared again later when his life story was being read aloud; and yet a third time when Ajaan Mahā Boowa lit the funeral pyre. It was as though the power of his spiritual attainment had created an external, visual image to reflect the depth and subtly of his virtue for all to see"
A miraculous event also took place when Ramana Maharshi passed. At that moment a shooting star, vividly luminous moved slowly across the sky. This was witnessed by many thousands of people in various parts of India.
It appears that when an enlightened being passes there can be unusual, even extraordinary phenomena that manifests for all to see.

User avatar
Jangchup Donden
Posts: 216
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2010 5:44 am

Re: Illusory body /rainbow body after death and rebirth

Postby Jangchup Donden » Tue Jan 29, 2013 8:18 am

Malcolm wrote:
heart wrote:I have no idea. :smile: But if you have a rainbow body rebirth just doesn't make any sense.

/magnus



Khyentse Wangpo managed it. Guess this begs the question -- when is rebirth not rebirth?


When it's emanation.


Return to “Tibetan Buddhism”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: davyji, heart, Miroku, Tanaduk and 40 guests