Is Guru Yoga necessary?
Is Guru Yoga necessary?
Hi all,
Recently, in the Kagyu forum, I asked if 'only' Guru Yoga in itself is enough. Not entirely surprisingly, the consensus was a resounding 'yes'.
Ok, let's invert the question this time. Is Guru Yoga necessary? Can we reach accomplishment without it?
I'm not talking about the absolute Guru Yoga here, because when we define the ultimate Guru as dharmakaya then it is necessary by definition. I'm talking about the specific practices of Guru Yoga. Could we accomplish the full path through yidams and 6 yogas, or tregchod and togal, without considering those practices to be Guru Yoga (which would be the usual way to do it)?
Before you all put your wrath on me, I'm not denying the value of Guru Yoga, and yes I do have a root lama. Having done several Guru Yogas of Guru Rinpoche, Milarepa, the Karmapas, etc, I know their power. But why not receive a yidam from a teacher, get instructions, practice, and achieve realization, without ever doing or even knowing about the concept of Guru Yoga? Yes? No? Why?
Kelwin
Recently, in the Kagyu forum, I asked if 'only' Guru Yoga in itself is enough. Not entirely surprisingly, the consensus was a resounding 'yes'.
Ok, let's invert the question this time. Is Guru Yoga necessary? Can we reach accomplishment without it?
I'm not talking about the absolute Guru Yoga here, because when we define the ultimate Guru as dharmakaya then it is necessary by definition. I'm talking about the specific practices of Guru Yoga. Could we accomplish the full path through yidams and 6 yogas, or tregchod and togal, without considering those practices to be Guru Yoga (which would be the usual way to do it)?
Before you all put your wrath on me, I'm not denying the value of Guru Yoga, and yes I do have a root lama. Having done several Guru Yogas of Guru Rinpoche, Milarepa, the Karmapas, etc, I know their power. But why not receive a yidam from a teacher, get instructions, practice, and achieve realization, without ever doing or even knowing about the concept of Guru Yoga? Yes? No? Why?
Kelwin
'I will not take your feelings seriously, and neither will you' -Lama Lena
Re: Is Guru Yoga necessary?
And the yidam is something other than the guru? And the guru is something other than your own enlightened nature?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Re: Is Guru Yoga necessary?
Nope, it isn't. But that's exactly the ultimate perspective on the Guru that I was trying to avoid heregregkavarnos wrote:And the yidam is something other than the guru? And the guru is something other than your own enlightened nature?
'I will not take your feelings seriously, and neither will you' -Lama Lena
Re: Is Guru Yoga necessary?
It's going to be pretty hard to avoid hearing about the essence of the practice when you ask about the practice.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Re: Is Guru Yoga necessary?
Erik once told me that Tulku Urgyen used to say that if you did your Ngondro and got the instructions Dzogchen/Mahamudra it is enough to take one practice, like Yidam or a Guru Yoga, and just continuously practice that. Everything is complete there.Kelwin wrote:Hi all,
Recently, in the Kagyu forum, I asked if 'only' Guru Yoga in itself is enough. Not entirely surprisingly, the consensus was a resounding 'yes'.
Ok, let's invert the question this time. Is Guru Yoga necessary? Can we reach accomplishment without it?
I'm not talking about the absolute Guru Yoga here, because when we define the ultimate Guru as dharmakaya then it is necessary by definition. I'm talking about the specific practices of Guru Yoga. Could we accomplish the full path through yidams and 6 yogas, or tregchod and togal, without considering those practices to be Guru Yoga (which would be the usual way to do it)?
Before you all put your wrath on me, I'm not denying the value of Guru Yoga, and yes I do have a root lama. Having done several Guru Yogas of Guru Rinpoche, Milarepa, the Karmapas, etc, I know their power. But why not receive a yidam from a teacher, get instructions, practice, and achieve realization, without ever doing or even knowing about the concept of Guru Yoga? Yes? No? Why?
Kelwin
/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut
"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
~Kurt Vonnegut
"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
Re: Is Guru Yoga necessary?
Kelwin wrote: Ok, let's invert the question this time. Is Guru Yoga necessary? Can we reach accomplishment without it?
No, not in Vajrayāna.
Re: Is Guru Yoga necessary?
Which of the two questions are you answering no to? Coz it makes a HUGE difference!
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Re: Is Guru Yoga necessary?
the second I guess ...
Sönam
Sönam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -
Re: Is Guru Yoga necessary?
gregkavarnos wrote:Which of the two questions are you answering no to? Coz it makes a HUGE difference!
Guru yoga is the sole path of all the buddhas.
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Re: Is Guru Yoga necessary?
Thus have I heard:
If you are following a vajrayana path, yes it is absolutely necessary.
If you are following a mahayana or hinayana path, then no.
If you are following a vajrayana path, yes it is absolutely necessary.
If you are following a mahayana or hinayana path, then no.
This is not the wrong life.
Re: Is Guru Yoga necessary?
Well, I stopped making assumptions about what Namdrol means after he let loose with comments like: "...realisation is bullshit..."Sönam wrote:the second I guess ...
Sönam
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
- mindyourmind
- Posts: 497
- Joined: Fri Dec 18, 2009 11:11 am
- Location: South Africa
Re: Is Guru Yoga necessary?
Don't worry, Namdrol doesn't exist.gregkavarnos wrote:Well, I stopped making assumptions about what Namdrol means after he let loose with comments like: "...realisation is bullshit..."Sönam wrote:the second I guess ...
Sönam
Dualism is the real root of our suffering and all of our conflicts.
Namkhai Norbu
Namkhai Norbu
Re: Is Guru Yoga necessary?
I must say my answer was wrong ... I badly notice the negation in your sentence. Therefore "the first I guess"gregkavarnos wrote:Well, I stopped making assumptions about what Namdrol means after he let loose with comments like: "...realisation is bullshit..."Sönam wrote:the second I guess ...
Sönam
Sönam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -
Re: Is Guru Yoga necessary?
I must say my answer was wrong ... I badly notice the negation in your sentence. Therefore "the first I guess". But I do not have so much problem to follow Namdrol ... but intuitively.gregkavarnos wrote:Well, I stopped making assumptions about what Namdrol means after he let loose with comments like: "...realisation is bullshit..."Sönam wrote:the second I guess ...
Sönam
Sönam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -
Re: Is Guru Yoga necessary?
I think it would still be Guru Yoga. You would just be simply ignoring the the label of "Guru." However, Guru Yoga is really all pervasive when it comes to practice. The concept still there.
Shaun
Shaun
Re: Is Guru Yoga necessary?
True, but you do understand my question, right? Another way to phrase it could be 'is ultimate guru yoga possible without ever doing relative guru yoga?'gregkavarnos wrote:It's going to be pretty hard to avoid hearing about the essence of the practice when you ask about the practice.
'I will not take your feelings seriously, and neither will you' -Lama Lena
Re: Is Guru Yoga necessary?
Thanks Magnus, despite my boundless confusion, I seem to somehow trust anything Tulku Urgyen ever saidheart wrote:Erik once told me that Tulku Urgyen used to say that if you did your Ngondro and got the instructions Dzogchen/Mahamudra it is enough to take one practice, like Yidam or a Guru Yoga, and just continuously practice that. Everything is complete there.
/magnus
'I will not take your feelings seriously, and neither will you' -Lama Lena
Re: Is Guru Yoga necessary?
Accomplishment without (relative) Guru Yoga is impossible?Namdrol wrote:Kelwin wrote: Ok, let's invert the question this time. Is Guru Yoga necessary? Can we reach accomplishment without it?
No, not in Vajrayāna.
or
Accomplishment without (relative) Guru Yoga is not Vajrayana?
'I will not take your feelings seriously, and neither will you' -Lama Lena
Re: Is Guru Yoga necessary?
The Lam Rim teaches what is and is not necessary for the practitioner.
"It's as plain as the nose on your face!" Dottie Primrose
Re: Is Guru Yoga necessary?
In Vajrayana and Dzogchen Guru Yoga is necessary.
In Hinayana and Mahayana it is not.
It's pretty straight forward really.
In Hinayana and Mahayana it is not.
It's pretty straight forward really.
"All phenomena of samsara depend on the mind, so when the essence of mind is purified, samsara is purified. Since the phenomena of nirvana depend on the pristine consciousness of vidyā, because one remains in the immediacy of vidyā, buddhahood arises on its own. All critical points are summarized with those two." - Longchenpa