Is Guru Yoga necessary?

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Kelwin
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Is Guru Yoga necessary?

Post by Kelwin »

Hi all,

Recently, in the Kagyu forum, I asked if 'only' Guru Yoga in itself is enough. Not entirely surprisingly, the consensus was a resounding 'yes'.

Ok, let's invert the question this time. Is Guru Yoga necessary? Can we reach accomplishment without it?

I'm not talking about the absolute Guru Yoga here, because when we define the ultimate Guru as dharmakaya then it is necessary by definition. I'm talking about the specific practices of Guru Yoga. Could we accomplish the full path through yidams and 6 yogas, or tregchod and togal, without considering those practices to be Guru Yoga (which would be the usual way to do it)?

Before you all put your wrath on me, I'm not denying the value of Guru Yoga, and yes I do have a root lama. Having done several Guru Yogas of Guru Rinpoche, Milarepa, the Karmapas, etc, I know their power. But why not receive a yidam from a teacher, get instructions, practice, and achieve realization, without ever doing or even knowing about the concept of Guru Yoga? Yes? No? Why?

:namaste:
Kelwin
'I will not take your feelings seriously, and neither will you' -Lama Lena
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Grigoris
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Re: Is Guru Yoga necessary?

Post by Grigoris »

And the yidam is something other than the guru? And the guru is something other than your own enlightened nature?
:namaste:
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
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Kelwin
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Re: Is Guru Yoga necessary?

Post by Kelwin »

gregkavarnos wrote:And the yidam is something other than the guru? And the guru is something other than your own enlightened nature?
:namaste:
Nope, it isn't. But that's exactly the ultimate perspective on the Guru that I was trying to avoid here :smile:
'I will not take your feelings seriously, and neither will you' -Lama Lena
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Grigoris
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Re: Is Guru Yoga necessary?

Post by Grigoris »

It's going to be pretty hard to avoid hearing about the essence of the practice when you ask about the practice. ;)
:namaste:
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
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heart
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Re: Is Guru Yoga necessary?

Post by heart »

Kelwin wrote:Hi all,

Recently, in the Kagyu forum, I asked if 'only' Guru Yoga in itself is enough. Not entirely surprisingly, the consensus was a resounding 'yes'.

Ok, let's invert the question this time. Is Guru Yoga necessary? Can we reach accomplishment without it?

I'm not talking about the absolute Guru Yoga here, because when we define the ultimate Guru as dharmakaya then it is necessary by definition. I'm talking about the specific practices of Guru Yoga. Could we accomplish the full path through yidams and 6 yogas, or tregchod and togal, without considering those practices to be Guru Yoga (which would be the usual way to do it)?

Before you all put your wrath on me, I'm not denying the value of Guru Yoga, and yes I do have a root lama. Having done several Guru Yogas of Guru Rinpoche, Milarepa, the Karmapas, etc, I know their power. But why not receive a yidam from a teacher, get instructions, practice, and achieve realization, without ever doing or even knowing about the concept of Guru Yoga? Yes? No? Why?

:namaste:
Kelwin
Erik once told me that Tulku Urgyen used to say that if you did your Ngondro and got the instructions Dzogchen/Mahamudra it is enough to take one practice, like Yidam or a Guru Yoga, and just continuously practice that. Everything is complete there.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
Malcolm
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Re: Is Guru Yoga necessary?

Post by Malcolm »

Kelwin wrote: Ok, let's invert the question this time. Is Guru Yoga necessary? Can we reach accomplishment without it?

No, not in Vajrayāna.
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Grigoris
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Re: Is Guru Yoga necessary?

Post by Grigoris »

Which of the two questions are you answering no to? Coz it makes a HUGE difference! :thinking:
:namaste:
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
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Sönam
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Re: Is Guru Yoga necessary?

Post by Sönam »

the second I guess ...

Sönam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
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Malcolm
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Re: Is Guru Yoga necessary?

Post by Malcolm »

gregkavarnos wrote:Which of the two questions are you answering no to? Coz it makes a HUGE difference! :thinking:
:namaste:

Guru yoga is the sole path of all the buddhas.
Knotty Veneer
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Re: Is Guru Yoga necessary?

Post by Knotty Veneer »

Thus have I heard:

If you are following a vajrayana path, yes it is absolutely necessary.

If you are following a mahayana or hinayana path, then no.
This is not the wrong life.
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Grigoris
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Re: Is Guru Yoga necessary?

Post by Grigoris »

Sönam wrote:the second I guess ...

Sönam
Well, I stopped making assumptions about what Namdrol means after he let loose with comments like: "...realisation is bullshit..." ;)
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
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mindyourmind
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Re: Is Guru Yoga necessary?

Post by mindyourmind »

gregkavarnos wrote:
Sönam wrote:the second I guess ...

Sönam
Well, I stopped making assumptions about what Namdrol means after he let loose with comments like: "...realisation is bullshit..." ;)
Don't worry, Namdrol doesn't exist.
Dualism is the real root of our suffering and all of our conflicts.

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Sönam
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Re: Is Guru Yoga necessary?

Post by Sönam »

gregkavarnos wrote:
Sönam wrote:the second I guess ...

Sönam
Well, I stopped making assumptions about what Namdrol means after he let loose with comments like: "...realisation is bullshit..." ;)
I must say my answer was wrong ... I badly notice the negation in your sentence. Therefore "the first I guess"

Sönam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -
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Sönam
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Re: Is Guru Yoga necessary?

Post by Sönam »

gregkavarnos wrote:
Sönam wrote:the second I guess ...

Sönam
Well, I stopped making assumptions about what Namdrol means after he let loose with comments like: "...realisation is bullshit..." ;)
I must say my answer was wrong ... I badly notice the negation in your sentence. Therefore "the first I guess". But I do not have so much problem to follow Namdrol ... but intuitively.

Sönam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -
zerwe
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Re: Is Guru Yoga necessary?

Post by zerwe »

I think it would still be Guru Yoga. You would just be simply ignoring the the label of "Guru." However, Guru Yoga is really all pervasive when it comes to practice. The concept still there.

Shaun :namaste:
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Kelwin
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Re: Is Guru Yoga necessary?

Post by Kelwin »

gregkavarnos wrote:It's going to be pretty hard to avoid hearing about the essence of the practice when you ask about the practice. ;)
:namaste:
True, but you do understand my question, right? Another way to phrase it could be 'is ultimate guru yoga possible without ever doing relative guru yoga?'
'I will not take your feelings seriously, and neither will you' -Lama Lena
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Kelwin
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Re: Is Guru Yoga necessary?

Post by Kelwin »

heart wrote:Erik once told me that Tulku Urgyen used to say that if you did your Ngondro and got the instructions Dzogchen/Mahamudra it is enough to take one practice, like Yidam or a Guru Yoga, and just continuously practice that. Everything is complete there.

/magnus
Thanks Magnus, despite my boundless confusion, I seem to somehow trust anything Tulku Urgyen ever said :namaste:
'I will not take your feelings seriously, and neither will you' -Lama Lena
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Kelwin
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Re: Is Guru Yoga necessary?

Post by Kelwin »

Namdrol wrote:
Kelwin wrote: Ok, let's invert the question this time. Is Guru Yoga necessary? Can we reach accomplishment without it?

No, not in Vajrayāna.
Accomplishment without (relative) Guru Yoga is impossible?

or

Accomplishment without (relative) Guru Yoga is not Vajrayana?
'I will not take your feelings seriously, and neither will you' -Lama Lena
Jinzang
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Re: Is Guru Yoga necessary?

Post by Jinzang »

The Lam Rim teaches what is and is not necessary for the practitioner.
"It's as plain as the nose on your face!" Dottie Primrose
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Josef
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Re: Is Guru Yoga necessary?

Post by Josef »

In Vajrayana and Dzogchen Guru Yoga is necessary.
In Hinayana and Mahayana it is not.
It's pretty straight forward really.
"All phenomena of samsara depend on the mind, so when the essence of mind is purified, samsara is purified. Since the phenomena of nirvana depend on the pristine consciousness of vidyā, because one remains in the immediacy of vidyā, buddhahood arises on its own. All critical points are summarized with those two." - Longchenpa
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