Do past practices count in ngondro?

Forum for discussion of Tibetan Buddhism. Questions specific to one school are best posted in the appropriate sub-forum.
User avatar
Sönam
Posts: 1999
Joined: Wed Mar 24, 2010 2:11 pm
Location: France
Contact:

Re: Do past practices count in ngondro?

Post by Sönam »

"Dzogchen is not Vajrayana kind of system. It is self liberation, realizing everything is a system
...
Why we learn practices from other traditions? We need to integrate all traditions, any kind of practices, but we goin essence."

- ChNN - teaching 6/2011
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -
User avatar
Lhug-Pa
Posts: 1429
Joined: Sat Oct 15, 2011 11:58 pm

Re: Do past practices count in ngondro?

Post by Lhug-Pa »

From what I understand, for the Inner Rushen to work we don't have to have awareness of Rigpa of the Natural State (Instant Presence) during the entire practice (of course if we do, then all the better); but just presence or mindfulness at least.

Because the Khorde Rushens of Dzogchen are precisely for 'separating' mind from Nature of Mind. So since we have the Inner and other Rushan practices, then Ngondro and/or the Two Stages are not totally necessary given this fact. Of course if our Guru tells us to practice Ngondro and/or the Two Stages, then we should do it.

And I don't think that this disagrees with the quote from Tsoknyi Rinpoche posted in another similar thread (on Dzogchen and the Two Stages) it's just another approach.

So perhaps while Tsoknyi Rinpoche has his students practice the Two Stages, it doesn't mean that he would necessarily disagree with what I'm suggesting here regarding Rushens, no?

Oh and a quote from the mentioned other thread by Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche:

"Aside from receiving blessings, gathering the accumulations, and purifying obscurations, no other technique exists for recognizing Rigpa." - Tulku Urgyen

This could all be achieved through Rushen practice as well, yes?
Mariusz
Posts: 708
Joined: Mon Apr 12, 2010 12:08 pm

Re: Do past practices count in ngondro?

Post by Mariusz »

Lhug-Pa wrote:From what I understand, for the Inner Rushen to work we don't have to have awareness of Rigpa of the Natural State (Instant Presence) during the entire practice (of course if we do, then all the better); but just presence or mindfulness at least.

Because the Khorde Rushens of Dzogchen are precisely for 'separating' mind from Nature of Mind. So since we have the Inner and other Rushan practices, then Ngondro and/or the Two Stages are not totally necessary given this fact. Of course if our Guru tells us to practice Ngondro and/or the Two Stages, then we should do it.

And I don't think that this disagrees with the quote from Tsoknyi Rinpoche posted in another similar thread (on Dzogchen and the Two Stages) it's just another approach.

So perhaps while Tsoknyi Rinpoche has his students practice the Two Stages, it doesn't mean that he would necessarily disagree with what I'm suggesting here regarding Rushens, no?

Oh and a quote from the mentioned other thread by Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche:

"Aside from receiving blessings, gathering the accumulations, and purifying obscurations, no other technique exists for recognizing Rigpa." - Tulku Urgyen

This could all be achieved through Rushen practice as well, yes?
All I can answer, Rushen is called extraordinary Ngondro. Tsalung/Tummo from Anuyoga are aslo extraordinary tools. All point-out what was already introduced by Master but not recognized yet, or prepare oneself to the future Direct Intro from Master. Buddhism with Madhyamaka also is compatible for this preparing.

In Dzogchen Community I suppose there are also many extraordinary practices to get easier recognition of Rigpa?
User avatar
simhamuka
Posts: 88
Joined: Tue Jun 05, 2012 5:54 pm

Re: Do past practices count in ngondro?

Post by simhamuka »

Sönam wrote:
Dzogchen is not belonging to Nyingma or Sarma schools ... Nyingma and Sarma may be integrated in Dzogchen. When you do ngondro you practice Vajrayana ... which can be fine, but there is no direct relation with Dzogchen ...

Sönam
True. Just like a Vajrayana practitioner who's a monk is practicing both Vinaya and Vajrayana at the same time: monastic vows are a different system. Yet that doesn't mean they're mutually exclusive. The merit and discipline of at least Genyen vows serves as a foundation.

According to Khenpo Tsultrim Gyatso's The Progressive Stages of Meditation on Emptiness, a gradual path encompasses Sutrayana, Chittamatra, Madhyamika, all the way to ... well, in his case to Mahamudra. All separate philosophical systems, but methods of approach to Mahamudra. Ngundro's part of a gradual approach that's necessary for those who don't have instant results in their practice, who don't "leap."

My impression is it all boils down to what benefits the student. If what benefits the student is building towers like Milarepa, then that can be another kind of ngundro.
Sengdongma has an easy job, because there are no enemies.
Mariusz
Posts: 708
Joined: Mon Apr 12, 2010 12:08 pm

Re: Do past practices count in ngondro?

Post by Mariusz »

simhamuka wrote: According to Khenpo Tsultrim Gyatso's The Progressive Stages of Meditation on Emptiness, a gradual path encompasses Sutrayana, Chittamatra, Madhyamika, all the way to ... well, in his case to Mahamudra.
Of course, including Dzogchen :twothumbsup: here my history of the debate in Dharmawheel: http://www.lamrimnotes.webs.com/hornlike.html
User avatar
Sönam
Posts: 1999
Joined: Wed Mar 24, 2010 2:11 pm
Location: France
Contact:

Re: Do past practices count in ngondro?

Post by Sönam »

simhamuka wrote:
Sönam wrote:
Dzogchen is not belonging to Nyingma or Sarma schools ... Nyingma and Sarma may be integrated in Dzogchen. When you do ngondro you practice Vajrayana ... which can be fine, but there is no direct relation with Dzogchen ...

Sönam
True. Just like a Vajrayana practitioner who's a monk is practicing both Vinaya and Vajrayana at the same time: monastic vows are a different system. Yet that doesn't mean they're mutually exclusive. The merit and discipline of at least Genyen vows serves as a foundation.

According to Khenpo Tsultrim Gyatso's The Progressive Stages of Meditation on Emptiness, a gradual path encompasses Sutrayana, Chittamatra, Madhyamika, all the way to ... well, in his case to Mahamudra. All separate philosophical systems, but methods of approach to Mahamudra. Ngundro's part of a gradual approach that's necessary for those who don't have instant results in their practice, who don't "leap."

My impression is it all boils down to what benefits the student. If what benefits the student is building towers like Milarepa, then that can be another kind of ngundro.
I don't buy the progressive approach regarding Dzogchen. I feel that for average teachers in old Tibetan social organization, it has to do with necessities ... but that's an opinion. Dzogchen is definitely the 3 statements and that's why it is so special ... and many have difficulties to accept it so!

Sönam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -
Arnoud
Posts: 1005
Joined: Sun Jul 18, 2010 7:19 pm
Location: Benelux, then USA, now Southern Europe.

Re: Do past practices count in ngondro?

Post by Arnoud »

Sönam wrote:
I don't buy the progressive approach regarding Dzogchen. I feel that for average teachers in old Tibetan social organization, it has to do with necessities ... but that's an opinion. Dzogchen is definitely the 3 statements and that's why it is so special ... and many have difficulties to accept it so!

Sönam
I think if you would respect the fact that some teachers require Ngondro for Dzogchen, you would get a whole lot less arguments coming your way. It works both ways. I know CNN was a sort of outcast in the beginning because he taught Dzogchen without any prerequisites. On this board however, the majority of Dzogchen practitioners are CNN students. So, your defense of Dzogchen w/o Ngondro is not necessary anymore. Now, we have to start defending the people who practice Ngondro with Dzogchen from you. I am sure that is not your intention so if you could just tone the rhetoric down a little, that would be great. Thanks.
User avatar
simhamuka
Posts: 88
Joined: Tue Jun 05, 2012 5:54 pm

Re: Do past practices count in ngondro?

Post by simhamuka »

Sönam wrote:
I don't buy the progressive approach regarding Dzogchen. I feel that for average teachers in old Tibetan social organization, it has to do with necessities ... but that's an opinion. Dzogchen is definitely the 3 statements and that's why it is so special ... and many have difficulties to accept it so!

Sönam
Ah, yes, I can see why it would be touchy. I heard the criticism of CNN way back in the 80s. But my understanding from his books was that he was presenting Dzogchen from the Bon perspective, which is more open, so he wasn't breaking any samayas. If people don't know about real Dzogchen, then they'll start making it up. Look at Madame Blavatsky from the 1800s and her total fabrications about Tibet.

I'll admit, the criticism made me wary of CNN. But when I was at uni, I was looking for information on very, very early Tibet and was impressed with his scholarship. For some reason that gave me confidence in him.
Sengdongma has an easy job, because there are no enemies.
User avatar
Lhug-Pa
Posts: 1429
Joined: Sat Oct 15, 2011 11:58 pm

Re: Do past practices count in ngondro?

Post by Lhug-Pa »

Mariusz wrote:All I can answer, Rushen is called extraordinary Ngondro. Tsalung/Tummo from Anuyoga are aslo extraordinary tools. All point-out what was already introduced by Master but not recognized yet, or prepare oneself to the future Direct Intro from Master. Buddhism with Madhyamaka also is compatible for this preparing.

In Dzogchen Community I suppose there are also many extraordinary practices to get easier recognition of Rigpa?
Yes, in the Dzogchen Community of Chögyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche, Guru Yoga is the only Samaya if we do not always have Rigpa of Sems-Nyid from moment to moment (because if we do have that capacity, then we are always effortlessly with Vidya of the state of Guru Yoga anyway, which would automatically fulfill all Samayas).

Nevertheless, Chögyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche always encourages us to do Rushen & Semdzin practices, Ganapujas, Yantra Yoga, and other secondary practices if we have time for practicing them.
Mariusz
Posts: 708
Joined: Mon Apr 12, 2010 12:08 pm

Re: Do past practices count in ngondro?

Post by Mariusz »

Lhug-Pa wrote:
Mariusz wrote:All I can answer, Rushen is called extraordinary Ngondro. Tsalung/Tummo from Anuyoga are aslo extraordinary tools. All point-out what was already introduced by Master but not recognized yet, or prepare oneself to the future Direct Intro from Master. Buddhism with Madhyamaka also is compatible for this preparing.

In Dzogchen Community I suppose there are also many extraordinary practices to get easier recognition of Rigpa?
Yes, in the Dzogchen Community of Chögyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche, Guru Yoga is the only Samaya if we do not always have Rigpa of Sems-Nyid from moment to moment (because if we do have that capacity, then we are always effortlessly with Vidya of the state of Guru Yoga anyway, which would automatically fulfill all Samayas).

Nevertheless, Chögyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche always encourages us to do Rushen & Semdzin practices, Ganapujas, Yantra Yoga, and other secondary practices if we have time for practicing them.
What is suprising, you and other people from DC openly write here of having this recognition of Rigpa. So i finally become a member also to find out what you really mean by it :smile: Nevertheless I'm the above.
User avatar
Lhug-Pa
Posts: 1429
Joined: Sat Oct 15, 2011 11:58 pm

Re: Do past practices count in ngondro?

Post by Lhug-Pa »

Well I did not mean to imply that I'm claiming to have recognition of Rigpa.

So allow me to rephrase:

"(...because if we do have that capacity, then it is said that we are always effortlessly with Vidya of the state of Guru Yoga anyway, which would automatically fulfill all Samayas)."

Anyhow, good to hear that you've joined the Dzogchen Community Mariusz. :)
User avatar
Sönam
Posts: 1999
Joined: Wed Mar 24, 2010 2:11 pm
Location: France
Contact:

Re: Do past practices count in ngondro?

Post by Sönam »

Mariusz wrote:So i finally become a member also to find out what you really mean by it :smile: Nevertheless I'm the above.
:thumbsup:
Sönam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -
Mariusz
Posts: 708
Joined: Mon Apr 12, 2010 12:08 pm

Re: Do past practices count in ngondro?

Post by Mariusz »

Sönam wrote:
Mariusz wrote:So i finally become a member also to find out what you really mean by it :smile: Nevertheless I'm the above.
:thumbsup:
Sönam
Don't be happy, we will see :shrug: :smile:
User avatar
simhamuka
Posts: 88
Joined: Tue Jun 05, 2012 5:54 pm

Re: Do past practices count in ngondro?

Post by simhamuka »

Mariusz wrote:
simhamuka wrote: According to Khenpo Tsultrim Gyatso's The Progressive Stages of Meditation on Emptiness, a gradual path encompasses Sutrayana, Chittamatra, Madhyamika, all the way to ... well, in his case to Mahamudra.
Of course, including Dzogchen :twothumbsup: here my history of the debate in Dharmawheel: http://www.lamrimnotes.webs.com/hornlike.html
Oh, I missed this! I'm so pleased to see you referencing Karl Brunnholzl.
Sengdongma has an easy job, because there are no enemies.
Mariusz
Posts: 708
Joined: Mon Apr 12, 2010 12:08 pm

Re: Do past practices count in ngondro?

Post by Mariusz »

simhamuka wrote:
Mariusz wrote:
simhamuka wrote: According to Khenpo Tsultrim Gyatso's The Progressive Stages of Meditation on Emptiness, a gradual path encompasses Sutrayana, Chittamatra, Madhyamika, all the way to ... well, in his case to Mahamudra.
Of course, including Dzogchen :twothumbsup: here my history of the debate in Dharmawheel: http://www.lamrimnotes.webs.com/hornlike.html
Oh, I missed this! I'm so pleased to see you referencing Karl Brunnholzl.
Thank you. I met Him, Khenpo Tsultrim and Dzogchen Ponlop. Unforgetful. The page is made from my answers to my opponents here, mainly on Madhyamaka as compatible even with Dzogchen, Yogacara supplementary for Madhyamaka but not just as mind-only interpretation, the seeming is not totally faulty but points-out, the self-liberation of the seeming, so on and so forth.... So Madhyamaka is not just for intelect but as also a preparation sometimes more useful than even Ngondro...
Knotty Veneer
Posts: 967
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2012 1:50 pm

Re: Do past practices count in ngondro?

Post by Knotty Veneer »

catlady2112 wrote:After 30 of studying and practicing dharma in the Tibetan Tradition, I am thinking of taking dzogchen teachings and some require ngondro. Does that mean I have to start from scratch? In the past I never counted the practices/mantras/prostrations I did, and it's possible I've done the ngondro already without knowing it. Just curious.
As I was taught ngondro is for purifying karma, accumulating merit and developing devotion - you can never have enough of these.

I've done the Mahamudra ngondro twice and expect that I will do it again at least once more. Don't assume that you are not really practising just because your doing ngondro and that true practice comes after. Hence Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche reference to the "so-called preliminary practices" in the sub-title of his latest book.

Many great teachers continued to do ngondro their whole lives. It's not a bean counting exercise that has to be got over before you get to the higher teachings.
This is not the wrong life.
Yudron
Posts: 1087
Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2012 8:55 pm

Re: Do past practices count in ngondro?

Post by Yudron »

Knotty Veneer wrote:]
Many great teachers continued to do ngondro their whole lives.
Most seem to like to continue doing the formal recitation of the ngondro liturgy daily for their whole lives, while others feel it is all complete within their formless practice.

Personally, ngondro has been the backbone of my practice for 16 years. I don't have any special qualities, but it has made me a stable solid dharma practitioner, gradually increased my renunciation, and been a built in format for guru yoga. Doing ngondro in the morning is like taking a good vitamin pill--I know all my minimal nutritional bases are covered for the day. Counting the numbers really worked for me. Now, I have to discipline myself not to accumulate a lot, and emphasize my current practices.

We want to be dharma bulldozers, don't we? Just plowing on no matter what. Ngondro helps with this. Then, at the end of our lives we can look back without regret.
Post Reply

Return to “Tibetan Buddhism”