Versions of the Sutta-Nipata

Discuss and learn about the traditional Mahayana scriptures, without assuming that any one school ‘owns’ the only correct interpretation.
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doubledragon
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Versions of the Sutta-Nipata

Post by doubledragon »

I can't remember where I read that Thich Nhat Nanh recommended as basic daily reading the Bhaddekaratta Sutta (from the Majjhima Nikaya) and the Sutta Nipata, so I downloaded the pdf version in Buddhanet of the latter, an Australian version by Lesley Fowler Lebkowicz and Tamara Ditrich.

About a couple of weeks ago, I received a 1924 edition of Max Müller's "Dhammapada" with V. Fausböll's "Sutta-Nipata," and to my dismay I could see that Buddhanet's "Sutta-Nipata" and Fausböll's are totally different. :crying:

While Fausböll's edition is divided in Suttas and runs well into the 200 pages, the Buddhanet version is divided into chapters by subject (e.g. "On desire," "The Cave") and is a brief 56 pages. The spirit of the word is there, but they are basically two different books.

Could any of the members who is well-versed in both versions help me figure out which chapter in the Buddhanet version matches which sutta in the original by Fausböll?
Or is this version to be completely dismissed as a Sutta-Nipata?

Thank you very much for your answers! :bow:
mikenz66
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Re: Versions of the Sutta-Nipata

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi DoubleDragon,

Most of the Sutta Nipata is here: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... index.html
A different tranlation of the fifth chapter is here: http://suttacentral.net/sp

There are some other translation of the 4th and 5th chapters out there as well.
See also:
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=13542
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=11562
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=12666

We discussed the Sutta Nipata over on Dhamma Wheel in various threads. This search will take you to some of them:
https://www.google.co.th/search?q=site: ... S:official

:anjali:
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Re: Versions of the Sutta-Nipata

Post by mikenz66 »

And Bhikkhu Bodhi has some talks on a few of the Suttas here: http://bodhimonastery.org/sutta-nipata.html

:anjali:
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doubledragon
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Re: Versions of the Sutta-Nipata

Post by doubledragon »

Thank you, Mike!
These links are most useful. So looks like the Buddhanet translation came out of nowhere... :namaste:
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Re: Versions of the Sutta-Nipata

Post by Nicholas Weeks »

This magnificent work of scholarship by Bhikkhu Bodhi, titled The Suttanipata, from Wisdom pubs. just arrived.

About 200pp of the Suttanipata root text, preceded by 130pp of Introduction and a Guide to the suttas. Then the major part, almost a 1000pp of the Paramatthajotika II commentary, with substantial excerpts from the Niddesa. Finally, his usual copious notes, three appendices, glossary, bibliography, and indexes for the last 300pp.
Last edited by Nicholas Weeks on Sat Sep 02, 2017 4:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Versions of the Sutta-Nipata

Post by jkarlins »

Dhammatalks.org has extensive online suttas, and you can order hard copies for a donation.
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Re: Versions of the Sutta-Nipata

Post by Nicholas Weeks »

One of 70 sutta jewels in this beauteous collection of Buddha's teachings:
4.8 Being Overbold, the Disadvantages of Debate
Pasura Sutta

They say: “In our Dharma purity’s found”
but deny that it is found in the Dharma of others.
On what they depend they say “it’s the best”,
and so settle down in their individual truths. ₈₃₁

Those disputants into the assembly rush,
and perceive opposedly “the other” as a fool.
But in disputes, on others they rely—
these so-called experts ever-loving praise. ₈₃₂

Engrossed in conflict midst the assembly,
fearing defeat, they wish only for praise,
having been refuted, that one’s truly confused,
angry at blame seeks weakness in the other. ₈₃₃

“Through investigation is your argument
refuted and destroyed”—so they say.
That one grieves and laments—that mere arguer,
“Oh! I am overcome” that person wails. ₈₃₄

Arisen among monks—those controversies
among them cause both elation and depression.
Refrain therefore, from disputation!
No meaning’s in it save the prize of praise. ₈₃₅

Praised in the midst of the assembly
for the presentation of arguments,
then that one laughs, or else is haughty.
So they say, “Conceited by winning debate”. ₈₃₆

Though haughtiness will be ground for a downfall,
still proudly that one speaks, and with arrogance:
this having seen, refrain from disputations—
not by that is there purity, so the skilled say. ₈₃₇

Just as a strong man, fed
upon royal food, might roar forth,
wishing for a champion rival,
but finds from the first there’s nought to fight. ₈₃₈

Those holding a view and disputing, say thus:
“This alone is the truth”, so they aver;
then reply to them: “But no one’s here
to retaliate through disputation”. ₈₃₉

They continue with their practice, offering no opposition
against others, offering no view opposed to view.
But then, Pasūra, what would you obtain?
For them there is nothing to be grasped as the highest. ₈₄₀

As you’ve come here, in your mind
thinking and speculating on various views,
you have met with a Washed One
But will not be able to make progress with him. ₈₄₁
MIlls translation.
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Re: Versions of the Sutta-Nipata

Post by dzogchungpa »

Nicholas Weeks wrote:One of 70 sutta jewels in this beauteous collection of Buddha's teachings:
4.8 Being Overbold, the Disadvantages of Debate
Pasura Sutta

They say: “In our Dharma purity’s found”
but deny that it is found in the Dharma of others.
On what they depend they say “it’s the best”,
and so settle down in their individual truths. ₈₃₁

Those disputants into the assembly rush,
and perceive opposedly “the other” as a fool.
But in disputes, on others they rely—
these so-called experts ever-loving praise. ₈₃₂

Engrossed in conflict midst the assembly,
fearing defeat, they wish only for praise,
having been refuted, that one’s truly confused,
angry at blame seeks weakness in the other. ₈₃₃

“Through investigation is your argument
refuted and destroyed”—so they say.
That one grieves and laments—that mere arguer,
“Oh! I am overcome” that person wails. ₈₃₄

Arisen among monks—those controversies
among them cause both elation and depression.
Refrain therefore, from disputation!
No meaning’s in it save the prize of praise. ₈₃₅

Praised in the midst of the assembly
for the presentation of arguments,
then that one laughs, or else is haughty.
So they say, “Conceited by winning debate”. ₈₃₆

Though haughtiness will be ground for a downfall,
still proudly that one speaks, and with arrogance:
this having seen, refrain from disputations—
not by that is there purity, so the skilled say. ₈₃₇

Just as a strong man, fed
upon royal food, might roar forth,
wishing for a champion rival,
but finds from the first there’s nought to fight. ₈₃₈

Those holding a view and disputing, say thus:
“This alone is the truth”, so they aver;
then reply to them: “But no one’s here
to retaliate through disputation”. ₈₃₉

They continue with their practice, offering no opposition
against others, offering no view opposed to view.
But then, Pasūra, what would you obtain?
For them there is nothing to be grasped as the highest. ₈₄₀

As you’ve come here, in your mind
thinking and speculating on various views,
you have met with a Washed One
But will not be able to make progress with him. ₈₄₁
MIlls translation.
Kind of reminds me of DW.
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche
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Re: Versions of the Sutta-Nipata

Post by Nicholas Weeks »

Buddha: As nothing is grasped among various Dharmas,
so for me there is not any “This I proclaim”,
having seen but not grasped among many views,
through discernment among them I saw inner peace. ₈₄₄

Neither from views, not from learning or knowledge,
not from rites, or from vows, does purity come I say;
nor from no views, no learning, no knowledge acquired,
no rites and no vows—none of them at all,
Neither by grasping nor giving them up
is their peace unsupported, and no hunger “to be”. ₈₄₆

For one detached from perception, there exist no ties,
for one by wisdom freed, no delusions are there,
but those who have grasped perceptions and views,
they wander the world stirring up strife. ₈₅₄
4.9 844, 846 & 854
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Re: Versions of the Sutta-Nipata

Post by Nicholas Weeks »

Buddha describes the Muni:
IV. 10. Before the Dissolution

848. ‘Having what vision and what virtuous conduct is one called “calmed” ? Tell me this, Gotama, when you are asked about the supreme man.’
849. ‘With craving departed (even) before the dissolution of the body’, said the Blessed One, ‘not dependent upon the past, not to be reckoned in the present, for him there is nothing preferred (in the future).
850. Without anger, without trembling, not boasting, without remorse, speaking in moderation, not arrogant, he indeed is a sage restrained in speech.
851. Having no attachment to the future, he does not grieve over the past. He sees detachment in respect of sense-contacts, and is not led into (wrong) views.
852. (He is) withdrawn, not deceitful, not covetous, not avaricious, not impudent, not causing disgust, and not given to slander.
853. Without desire for pleasant things, and not given to arrogance, and gently possessing ready wit, he is not empassioned or dispassioned.
854. It is not because of love of gain that he trains himself, nor is he angry at the lack of gain. He is not opposed to craving, nor is he greedy for flavour(s),
855. (being) indifferent, always mindful. He does not think (of himself) as equal in the world. He is not superior, nor inferior. He has no haughtiness.
856. He for whom there is no Stage of dependence, knowing the doctrine, is not dependent. For whom there exists no craving for existence or non-existence,
857. in him, indifferent to sensual pleasures, I call “calmed”. In him there are no ties; he has crossed beyond attachment.
858. For him there are no sons or cattle, field(s), (or) property. For him there is nothing taken up or laid down.
859. That on account of which the common people, and ascetics and brahmans, might accuse him, is not preferred by him. Therefore he is not agitated in (the midst of) their accusations.
860. With greed gone, without avarice, a sage does not speak of himself (as being) among the superiors, or equals, or inferiors. He does not submit to figments, being without figments.
861. For whom there is nothing (called) his own in the world, and who does not grieve because of what does not exist, and does not go (astray) among mental phenomena, he truly is called “calmed”.’
Norman translation
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Re: Versions of the Sutta-Nipata

Post by Nicholas Weeks »

4.13 Greater Discourse on Quarrelling - Mahāviyūha Sutta

question: Regarding those people who hold to their views,
Arguing, “Only this is true!”
Should all of them be criticized,
Or are some praiseworthy also? ₉₀₂

buddha: This [praise] is a small thing, not enough for peace.
I say there are two outcomes of dispute;
Seeing this one should not dispute,
Recognizing that safety is a place without dispute. ₉₀₃
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Re: Versions of the Sutta-Nipata

Post by Nicholas Weeks »

2. Guhaṭṭaka Sutta - The Cave

1 That man who is greatly attached to the cave of the body and sunk in delusion, such a one is far from
detachment. Sensual pleasures are not easy to abandon in the world.
(772)
2 Those who are bound to worldly pleasures, conditioned by craving, are difficult to liberate; they cannot
be liberated by others. Perceiving their past and future indulgence they hanker after sensuality.
(773)
3 Those who are greedy, engage in and are infatuated by sensual pleasures; who remain stingy in a
miserable state, wail: ‘What will happen to us after death?’
(774)
4 Therefore a person should train himself in the immediate present. If he knows that the world is wicked,
he should not take the wicked way. Life is short, say the wise.
(775)
5 I observe these trembling beings of the world given to desire for various states of becoming; they are
wrecked who cringe at death, not being free from craving for repeated birth.
(776)
6 Look at those who struggle after their petty ambitions, like fish in a stream that is fast drying up. Seeing
this, let one fare unselfish in this life, while ceasing to worry about various states of becoming.
(777)
7 Overcoming desire alike for sensory enjoyment and their causes, comprehending sense impressions, not
hankering after enjoyments and not doing what is against one’s conscience, the wise one does not get
attached to what he sees or hears.
(778)
8 Having realized the [nature of] ideas, the sage is not attached to worldly objects. Having pulled out the
dart of passion and faring heedfully, he does not crave for this world or the next.
(779)
Saddhatissa translation
May all seek, find & follow the Path of Buddhas.
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Sutta-Nipata

Post by Nicholas Weeks »

3. Duṭṭhaṭṭhaka Sutta - Corruption
1 Some people speak with malicious intentions and others with the conviction that they are right. But the
sage does not enter into any controversy that has arisen. Therefore, the sage is free from all mental obstruction.
(780)
2 The person who is led by his impelling desire and continues according to his inclination, finds it
difficult to give up those views he adheres to. Coming to conclusions of his own, he speaks in accordance
with his knowledge.
(781)
3 If a person, without being asked, praises his own virtue and practices to others, or talks of himself, the
good say he is ignoble.
(782)
4 The calm, disciplined one who abstains from praising himself for his virtues, declaring, ‘So I am’, the
good call him a noble. In him there is no arrogance concerning the world.
(783)
5 He whose views are mentally constructed, causally formed, highly esteemed but not pure; views in
which he sees personal advantage, will experience a calm which is unstable.
(784)
6 It is hard to go beyond preconceived ideas reached by passing judgment regarding doctrines. Therefore,
with regard to these views he rejects one and grasps another.
(785)
7 For the person with spiritual excellence, nowhere in the world does he have any mentally-constructed
view about various spheres of becoming. As he has eradicated delusion and deceit, in what manner can he
be reckoned? He cannot be reckoned in any manner whatsoever.
(786)
8 He who is attached enters into debate about doctrines. By what and how can an unattached person be
characterized? He has nothing to grasp or reject; he has purified all views here itself.
(787)
Saddhatissa translation
May all seek, find & follow the Path of Buddhas.
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Re: Sutta-Nipata

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4. Suddhaṭṭhaka Sutta - Purity

1 ‘I see a pure, noble and healthy man; a person’s purification emerges from what he sees’ — thus,
holding this opinion and having seen this view to be the best, he considers knowledge to consist in the
seeing of a pure being.
(788)
2 If a man’s purity comes from what is seen, or if by this knowledge he can be freed of sorrow, then
something other than the Noble Path makes the person grasping after things a pure one. This view itself
reveals the nature of this person.
(789)
3 No brahmin claims purity from an external source such as what is seen, heard, or cognized, or from rule
or rite. Unsullied by both merit and demerit he has discarded the ego; he does not commit here any action
productive of (rebecoming) results.
(790)
4 Those who leave one thing to take up another and follow attachment never relinquish desire. They are
like monkeys who let go of one branch to grasp another, only to let it go again.
(791)
5 The man who, having undertaken certain holy practices himself, attached to ideas, passes from superior
to inferior states. But the wise man, having understood the Truth by the [supreme] means of knowledge
does not pass from superior to inferior states.
(792)
6 He who has dissociated himself from whatever is seen, heard or cognized. How can one have doubts
about such an insightful person who conducts himself openly?
(793)
7 They do not speculate, they do not esteem any views and say ‘This is the highest purity’. They release
the knot of dogmatic clinging and do not long for anything in the world.
(794)
8 The brahmin who has transcended the limits of mundane existence; he has no grasping after knowing or
seeing. He delights neither in passion nor in dispassion. For him there is nothing here to be grasped as the highest.
(795)
The remarks about 'seeing' criticize the old tradition of darshan - simply seeing a sage or sacred object will purify one.
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Re: Sutta-Nipata

Post by Fortyeightvows »

Nicholas Weeks wrote: Thu Sep 05, 2019 6:17 pm The remarks about 'seeing' criticize the old tradition of darshan - simply seeing a sage or sacred object will purify one.
So how do we square that with all the liberation by seeing and ‘seeing this once purifys this or that’ ?
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Re: Sutta-Nipata

Post by Nicholas Weeks »

Fortyeightvows wrote: Fri Sep 06, 2019 3:15 am
Nicholas Weeks wrote: Thu Sep 05, 2019 6:17 pm The remarks about 'seeing' criticize the old tradition of darshan - simply seeing a sage or sacred object will purify one.
So how do we square that with all the liberation by seeing and ‘seeing this once purifys this or that’ ?
Explain - I see no need to square anything.

The visual or any other sense input colors or resonates the mind, but there is no lasting wisdom or knowledge gained.
May all seek, find & follow the Path of Buddhas.
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Re: Sutta-Nipata

Post by Fortyeightvows »

Nicholas Weeks wrote: Fri Sep 06, 2019 4:39 am
Fortyeightvows wrote: Fri Sep 06, 2019 3:15 am
Nicholas Weeks wrote: Thu Sep 05, 2019 6:17 pm The remarks about 'seeing' criticize the old tradition of darshan - simply seeing a sage or sacred object will purify one.
So how do we square that with all the liberation by seeing and ‘seeing this once purifys this or that’ ?
Explain - I see no need to square anything.

The visual or any other sense input colors or resonates the mind, but there is no lasting wisdom or knowledge gained.
There is a popular idea that by looking at certain amulets one can purify this or that many eons of karma, etc.

Things like this-

As per Garchen Rinpoche- "whoever sees this mantra just once purifies the temporary obscurations of three hundred million eons. "
Source- https://www.garchen.store/store/p25/bra ... ation.html#/

There is also this thread talking all about this
viewtopic.php?f=40&t=23125
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Re: Sutta-Nipata

Post by Nicholas Weeks »

Fortyeightvows wrote: Fri Sep 06, 2019 4:47 am
Nicholas Weeks wrote: Fri Sep 06, 2019 4:39 am
Fortyeightvows wrote: Fri Sep 06, 2019 3:15 am

So how do we square that with all the liberation by seeing and ‘seeing this once purifys this or that’ ?
Explain - I see no need to square anything.

The visual or any other sense input colors or resonates the mind, but there is no lasting wisdom or knowledge gained.
There is a popular idea that by looking at certain amulets one can purify this or that many eons of karma, etc.

Things like this-

As per Garchen Rinpoche- "whoever sees this mantra just once purifies the temporary obscurations of three hundred million eons. "
Source- https://www.garchen.store/store/p25/bra ... ation.html#/

There is also this thread talking all about this
viewtopic.php?f=40&t=23125
Oh yeah, you remind me. I have a mantra baseball hat that a viewer of is supposed to be purified of bad karma, as you say. I take that to mean that the sight produces a seed that will eventually reduce bad karma, provided one supplies supportive conditions. Same idea that when one originally makes the bodhicitta vow one becomes a bodhisattva.
May all seek, find & follow the Path of Buddhas.
Fortyeightvows
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Re: Sutta-Nipata

Post by Fortyeightvows »

Nicholas Weeks wrote: Fri Sep 06, 2019 4:30 pm Oh yeah, you remind me. I have a mantra baseball hat that a viewer of is supposed to be purified of bad karma, as you say. I take that to mean that the sight produces a seed that will eventually reduce bad karma, provided one supplies supportive conditions. Same idea that when one originally makes the bodhicitta vow one becomes a bodhisattva.
Seems alot like
the old tradition of darshan - simply seeing a sage or sacred object will purify one.
Doesn't it?
Nicholas Weeks
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Re: Sutta-Nipata

Post by Nicholas Weeks »

Fortyeightvows wrote: Thu Sep 19, 2019 5:26 am
Nicholas Weeks wrote: Fri Sep 06, 2019 4:30 pm Oh yeah, you remind me. I have a mantra baseball hat that a viewer of is supposed to be purified of bad karma, as you say. I take that to mean that the sight produces a seed that will eventually reduce bad karma, provided one supplies supportive conditions. Same idea that when one originally makes the bodhicitta vow one becomes a bodhisattva.
Seems alot like
the old tradition of darshan - simply seeing a sage or sacred object will purify one.
Doesn't it?
Yep - which is why Buddha or any good Swami would clarify that no effort from the seer of the sage or sacred object will leave the seed remaining fallow.
May all seek, find & follow the Path of Buddhas.
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