The Pure Land and The Heart Sutra

Discuss and learn about the traditional Mahayana scriptures, without assuming that any one school ‘owns’ the only correct interpretation.
Serenity509
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The Pure Land and The Heart Sutra

Post by Serenity509 »

Known for its brevity, the Heart Sutra is perhaps the most well loved of all Mahayana sutras. What if we took Avalokitesvara's observation that form is emptiness and emptiness is form and applied it to Amida Buddha and the Pure Land? Any separation between the Pure Land and the world which we inhabit or between Amida and our true nature is fundamentally empty, just as "nothing is pure and nothing is stained":
Avalokiteśvara famously states, "Form is empty (śūnyatā). Emptiness is form", and declares the other skandhas to be equally empty – that is, dependently originated. Avalokiteśvara then goes through some of the most fundamental Buddhist teachings such as the Four Noble Truths and explains that in emptiness none of these notions apply. This is interpreted according to the two truths doctrine as saying that teachings, while accurate descriptions of conventional truth, are mere statements about reality – they are not reality itself – and that they are therefore not applicable to the ultimate truth that is by definition beyond our comprehending. Thus the bodhisattva, as the archetypal Mahayana Buddhist, relies on the perfection of wisdom, defined in the Mahaprajnaparamita Sutra to be the wisdom that perceives reality directly without conceptual attachment.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heart_Sutra
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Re: The Pure Land and The Heart Sutra

Post by joy&peace »

Good post, and ( upon meditating for some time ) occurs to me the Dogen quote;

'if you are unable to see the truth right in front of you, where else would you go to look for it?'
Om Gate Gate Paragate Parasamgate bodhi svaha
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Re: The Pure Land and The Heart Sutra

Post by 明安 Myoan »

Thich Thien Tam wrote about this very thing as it pertains to Pure Land practice.
There is one erroneous idea, prevalent among those who lean toward the subtle and the mysterious, which requires clarification. Many of them, emphasizing theory over practice, tend to be attached to the concept of "Amitabha as the Self-Nature, Pure Land as Mind-Only," and reject the existence of the Western Pure Land or rebirth there. These individuals explain the sutra teachings on Pure Land from the viewpoint of principle or essence, saying "Amitabha is our Buddha Nature, the Pure Land is the pure realm of the Mind, why seek it on the outside?" This is the great mistake of those who emphasize mundane, conventional reasoning.

They cling to theory (essence) while neglecting practice, prefer essence to marks, and rely on Ultimate Truth to reject the manifestations of mundane truth -- failing to realize that the two are inseparable.
...
Therefore, the phrase, "Self-Nature Amitabha, Mind-Only Pure Land" is not a denial of the Pure Land or Amitabha Buddha, but is rather an expression that gathers marks toward essence, brings "function" toward nature, to manifest the ultimate truth of the Void.
...
Not until we have reached the stage of non-cultivation can we dispense with expedients and really proclaim that all dharmas are empty. If we have not reached that stage, even a small thing like a mote of dust is real; we still feel warm near a fire or cold in the midst of frost and we still feel pain when a small thorn pricks our body -- how, then, can we say that all dharmas are non-existent and void?

Therefore, those who like to advance lofty and wonderful propositions, such as "Amitabha is the Self-Nature, the Pure Land is Mind Only," and go on to reject the actual practice of Buddha Recitation will find themselves in the predicament of "destroying the boat before stepping ashore." There is no way such persons can avoid drowning. On the contrary, since ancient times, those who have thoroughly understood essence have always paid particular attention to practice -- because practice symbolizes essence.
If you wish to read the rest, you can find it in his book Buddhism of Wisdom and Faith, which can be found in full (legally) here: http://www.ymba.org/books/buddhism-wisd ... response-1

Since my knowledge of sutras is shallow and this is the sutra studies section, I can't contribute much beyond this.
I felt it was important to at least refer readers of the thread to a respected monk, Thich Thien Tam, who can and does reference various sutras in his book.
Namu Amida Butsu
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Re: The Pure Land and The Heart Sutra

Post by Serenity509 »

Thank you for sharing that. What if you do the Nembutsu practice, from the perspective of non-dualism? Is that possible? I believe that, through the Nembutsu, Dharmakaya is compassionately accepting accepting you just as your are, whether or not Amida is a literal Buddha.

For me, Other-Power is a recognition of dependent origination, that all things, including my life, depend on each other and the whole:
Q: What is other power?
A: Other power refers to the Buddha's teaching of 'dependent origination', according to which all things arise in dependence upon causes and conditions. This means both that the causes in our karmic history will always cause us to be bombu and also that there are other causes that can, nonetheless, empower our spiritual life. All of these - our own karmic history and our openness to the healing power of Buddhas - are outside of ('other' than) our present self. We are both victims and beneficiaries of other powers. When we take refuge in the healing power of a Buddha it is as though a seed were planted within us that will then grow by itself. We then become a tathagatagarbha, or 'buddha-womb' within which the seed of Buddha gradually matures. Calling upon Amida Buddha is thus like allowing oneself to be impregnated by the Buddha's healing power which will then grow of its own accord. Amida-shu thus relies upon a subliminal process of spiritual growth.
http://www.amidausa.org/styled-5/index.html
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Re: The Pure Land and The Heart Sutra

Post by 明安 Myoan »

Amida isn't a guy in Philadelphia if that's what you mean by "literal Buddha."
Could you explain how you mean that term for me?
Thanks!
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Re: The Pure Land and The Heart Sutra

Post by Serenity509 »

Monlam Tharchin wrote:Amida isn't a guy in Philadelphia if that's what you mean by "literal Buddha."
Could you explain how you mean that term for me?
Thanks!
Thank you for the question. I don't personally believe that Amida Buddha is a literal person who attained Buddhahood on a planet billions of Buddha-lands away, eons before time even began. I honestly didn't become Buddhist so that I could believe in things that I can't see.

In Alfred Bloom's book Tannisho: A Resource for Modern Living, he explains how Mahayana philosophers came to understand Amida as not separate from our own nature and the Pure Land as not separate from the world in which we live. I understand that Bloom may not be a traditional Shin Buddhist, but there is a logic to what he's saying based on many different sources throughout Buddhist history.

The only Amida I believe in is the one who I can encounter in the present moment through the Nembutsu. This is just one man's perspective.
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Re: The Pure Land and The Heart Sutra

Post by Dan74 »

Monlam Tharchin wrote:Thich Thien Tam wrote about this very thing as it pertains to Pure Land practice.
There is one erroneous idea, prevalent among those who lean toward the subtle and the mysterious, which requires clarification. Many of them, emphasizing theory over practice, tend to be attached to the concept of "Amitabha as the Self-Nature, Pure Land as Mind-Only," and reject the existence of the Western Pure Land or rebirth there. These individuals explain the sutra teachings on Pure Land from the viewpoint of principle or essence, saying "Amitabha is our Buddha Nature, the Pure Land is the pure realm of the Mind, why seek it on the outside?" This is the great mistake of those who emphasize mundane, conventional reasoning.

They cling to theory (essence) while neglecting practice, prefer essence to marks, and rely on Ultimate Truth to reject the manifestations of mundane truth -- failing to realize that the two are inseparable.
...
Therefore, the phrase, "Self-Nature Amitabha, Mind-Only Pure Land" is not a denial of the Pure Land or Amitabha Buddha, but is rather an expression that gathers marks toward essence, brings "function" toward nature, to manifest the ultimate truth of the Void.
...
Not until we have reached the stage of non-cultivation can we dispense with expedients and really proclaim that all dharmas are empty. If we have not reached that stage, even a small thing like a mote of dust is real; we still feel warm near a fire or cold in the midst of frost and we still feel pain when a small thorn pricks our body -- how, then, can we say that all dharmas are non-existent and void?

Therefore, those who like to advance lofty and wonderful propositions, such as "Amitabha is the Self-Nature, the Pure Land is Mind Only," and go on to reject the actual practice of Buddha Recitation will find themselves in the predicament of "destroying the boat before stepping ashore." There is no way such persons can avoid drowning. On the contrary, since ancient times, those who have thoroughly understood essence have always paid particular attention to practice -- because practice symbolizes essence.
If you wish to read the rest, you can find it in his book Buddhism of Wisdom and Faith, which can be found in full (legally) here: http://www.ymba.org/books/buddhism-wisd ... response-1

Since my knowledge of sutras is shallow and this is the sutra studies section, I can't contribute much beyond this.
I felt it was important to at least refer readers of the thread to a respected monk, Thich Thien Tam, who can and does reference various sutras in his book.
:good:
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Re: The Pure Land and The Heart Sutra

Post by Serenity509 »

When someone says that Amida is just symbolic, that can sound lazy, especially if no real effort is made to explain what Amida symbolizes. Mark Unno explains Amida as the ocean of boundless compassion, which is something that I think all Buddhists can identify with:
In the Shin Buddhist path, the emphasis is on the Buddha’s compassion for all sentient beings. As human beings, our ability to convey compassion to other people and creatures comes to us through the cosmic compassion of Amida Buddha. Yet, Amida Buddha is not viewed as being separate from us; rather, Amida Buddha, as boundless compassion, is our deepest, truest nature. For Shin Buddhists, nature and the universe are filled with boundless compassion...
All beings are one with me, and I am led to become one with all beings. Illuminated, touched, embraced, and dissolved into the great Ocean of Compassion. I, this foolish being, entrust myself to Amida Buddha, my deepest, truest reality. Namu Amida Butsu.
http://www.lionsroar.com/the-ocean-of-b ... ompassion/
The Buddhist concept of emptiness, I think, is very relevant here. Emptiness does not mean nothingness. When one realizes that all things are relative, the truth which remains is boundless compassion.
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Re: The Pure Land and The Heart Sutra

Post by Dan74 »

This is all very good, Serenity. But these are concepts. And they too are empty. So the question to me is what is going to work better for liberation? Which concepts? Which practices?? That's all.
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Re: The Pure Land and The Heart Sutra

Post by 明安 Myoan »

To gain and appropriately use knowledge of Amida Buddha, nothing is superior to recitation of his name.
Namu Amida Butsu
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Re: The Pure Land and The Heart Sutra

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

I honestly didn't become Buddhist so that I could believe in things that I can't see.
First you've got to stop believing in the things you do see (as being self-existent or ultimately real)! :rolling:
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Re: The Pure Land and The Heart Sutra

Post by Serenity509 »

smcj wrote:
I honestly didn't become Buddhist so that I could believe in things that I can't see.
First you've got to stop believing in the things you do see (as being self-existent or ultimately real)! :rolling:
Perhaps this video will be helpful:

The spiritual journey of former Buddhist monk Stephen Batchelor.
phpBB [video]
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Re: The Pure Land and The Heart Sutra

Post by Serenity509 »

Monlam Tharchin wrote:To gain and appropriately use knowledge of Amida Buddha, nothing is superior to recitation of his name.
I agree with what you are saying, and one can recite the name from a non-dualistic perspective:
Popularly, Amitabha is somebody else. He is some great compassionate being who looks after you. Esoterically, Amitabha is your own nature; Amitabha is your real self, the inmost boundless light that is the root and ground of your own consciousness. You don't need to do anything to be that. You are that, and saying Nembutsu is simply a symbolical way of pointing out that you don't have to become this, because you are it...
The Middle Way, right down the center, is where you don't have to do a thing to justify yourself, and you don't have to justify not justifying yourself. So, there is something quite fascinating and tricky in this doctrine of the great bodhisattva Amitabha, who saves you just as you are, who delivers you from bondage just as you are. You only have to say "Namu Amida butsu."
http://terebess.hu/english/watts5.html
D.T. Suzuki wrote,
“The Pure Land is not millions and millions of miles away in the west, it is right here and those who have eyes can see it around them. And Amida is not presiding over any ethereal paradise but his Pure Land is this dirty Earth itself. Being in the Pure Land is to discover the Pure Land within ourselves. Amida is our inmost self, and when that inmost self is revealed, we are born into the Pure Land."
http://buddhistfaith.tripod.com/beliefs/id11.html
Please keep in mind that I don't find it wrong to see Amida as a person outside yourself who attained Buddhahood eons ago, galaxies away. It's just that it's only one level or interpretation of the reality that we call Amida and encounter in the Nembutsu.

For some people, reading the Heart Sutra might be helpful in understanding the Nembutsu from the perspective of non-duality. I am engulfed in the ocean of compassion everywhere, at all times, and I too am a part of this ocean, and saying the Nembutsu helps make me aware of this reality.

I'm sorry if I'm not explaining these concepts as well as I should. When the Heart Sutra says there is neither pure nor impure, that draws my attention to the fact that any Pure Land I experience is going to be in the present moment, rather than some outside place that we must wait for after death.
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Re: The Pure Land and The Heart Sutra

Post by Serenity509 »

I started this thread hopefully to talk about Amida and the Pure Land from the perspective of the Heart Sutra. I'm perfectly happy to be told I'm wrong, if that's from the perspective of the Heart Sutra. If anything, I welcome it. Of all the responses so far, this one perhaps most directly acknowledges the purpose of this thread:
joy&peace wrote:Good post, and ( upon meditating for some time ) occurs to me the Dogen quote;

'if you are unable to see the truth right in front of you, where else would you go to look for it?'
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Re: The Pure Land and The Heart Sutra

Post by 明安 Myoan »

Serenity wrote:I agree with what you are saying, and one can recite the name from a non-dualistic perspective:
It depends on the purpose for reciting nembutsu, and where we place the Heart Sutra among the three Pure Land sutras as texts for practice.

If we recite in order to calm the mind, realize the mind as the Pure Land, and other similar approaches, then I don't see any issue with taking the Heart Sutra as a basis for understanding. Recitation becomes a tool for insight or samadhi, among many different techniques that suit the inclinations of beings.

If we recite to rely on Amida's Other Power, then necessarily we recognize the deficiencies in our own reasoning, including dualistic or non-dualistic perspectives altogether. Then nembutsu is precisely setting aside our desire for perspectives, thousands of times a day.

It also depends on if you subscribe to the division of schools into the Holy Gate and the Pure Land Gate, and further if you agree with Master Shan-tao's delineation between miscellaneous and right practices.

If this thread is specifically about taking the Heart Sutra as the reference point and how to relate Pure Land practice to that sutra, regardless of opinions on having that basis, then I can hush up :pig:
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Re: The Pure Land and The Heart Sutra

Post by Serenity509 »

Monlam Tharchin wrote: If we recite to rely on Amida's Other Power, then necessarily we recognize the deficiencies in our own reasoning, including dualistic or non-dualistic perspectives altogether. Then nembutsu is precisely setting aside our desire for perspectives, thousands of times a day.
I appreciate your responses. Why must it be a form of self-power practice in order to experience the world where we live as the Pure Land? In the Vimalakirti Sutra, the world is seen as a Pure Land because Shakyamuni reveals it to be so:
At that time, the Buddha pressed the toes of His (right ) foot on the ground and the world was suddenly adorned with hundreds and thousands of rare and precious gems of the great chiliocosm, like the precious Majestic Buddha’s pure land adorned with countless precious merits, which the assembly praised as never seen before; in addition each person present found himself seated on a precious lotus throne...
The Buddha said: “This Buddha land of mine is always pure, but appears filthy so that I can lead people of inferior spirituality to their salvation. This is like the food of devas which takes various colours according to the merits of each individual eater. So, Sariputra, the man whose mind is pure sees this world in its majestic purity.”
http://www.wisdomlib.org/buddhism/book/ ... 16185.html
The main idea of the Heart Sutra is emptiness, which is different from the concept of nothingness. All things are empty because they have no inherent existence, since all things are dependent on something else. If all things are dependently originated, how can one attain Buddhahood through self-power? The concept of Other-Power better fits the reality of dependent origination:
Q: What is other power?
A: Other power refers to the Buddha's teaching of 'dependent origination', according to which all things arise in dependence upon causes and conditions. This means both that the causes in our karmic history will always cause us to be bombu and also that there are other causes that can, nonetheless, empower our spiritual life. All of these - our own karmic history and our openness to the healing power of Buddhas - are outside of ('other' than) our present self. We are both victims and beneficiaries of other powers. When we take refuge in the healing power of a Buddha it is as though a seed were planted within us that will then grow by itself. We then become a tathagatagarbha, or 'buddha-womb' within which the seed of Buddha gradually matures. Calling upon Amida Buddha is thus like allowing oneself to be impregnated by the Buddha's healing power which will then grow of its own accord.
http://www.amidausa.org/styled-5/index.html
What I am trying to get at is how the concept of Other-Power is compatible with the Heart Sutra. Even if the Pure Land is inseparable from the world in which we live, and Amida is inseparable from our own nature, we are not able to realize and experience this by our own power, since all things are dependently originated. This Other-Power I am speaking of is Dharmakaya or Universal Buddhahood, the ocean of compassion engulfing us all.
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Re: The Pure Land and The Heart Sutra

Post by Serenity509 »

If, according to Shinran, our rebirth is assured the moment we accept faith, and that, upon death, we will immediately attain Buddhahood, then literal belief in a Pure Land billions of Buddha-lands to the West doesn't seem so important. If, according to Shinran, the Nembutsu is said spontaneously through us as the work of Amida Buddha, that suggests a non-dualistic relationship, rather than Amida as an external deity. I'm sorry if I'm misrepresenting things.

To me, experiencing the Pure Land in this world means to experience the grace, light, and compassion of Amida in this very body, which is something that I believe Shinran had a profound experience of in his everyday life, even in the midst of the sufferings and doubts we all experience as foolish beings.

For Shinran, having a deathbed vision of Amida or receiving instruction from a Buddha in a distant Buddha-land weren't so important, since he shifted the focus of rebirth to the moment one accepts faith. As such, we should be able to experience Amida in our daily lives, as a reality that's both within us and surrounding us.
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Re: The Pure Land and The Heart Sutra

Post by amanitamusc »

Monlam Tharchin wrote:To gain and appropriately use knowledge of Amida Buddha, nothing is superior to recitation of his name.
Nothing?
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Re: The Pure Land and The Heart Sutra

Post by Admin_PC »

amanitamusc wrote:
Monlam Tharchin wrote:To gain and appropriately use knowledge of Amida Buddha, nothing is superior to recitation of his name.
Nothing?
He's talking in this life, for the expressed purpose of going to Sukhavati and hearing the Dharma from Amida. Honen wrote a whole book on the topic.
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Re: The Pure Land and The Heart Sutra

Post by joy&peace »

Doubt and faith are an interesting topic, for discussion as a whole. . Pure Land is undoubtedly more of one on the basis of faith.

Still, I do very much appreciate your points, dear Serenity, and for myself - the initial impression is very positive;

The first place my mind goes to is the Pure Land teaching that this world, itself is a pure land. . .

So it was very nice to be reminded of us this :smile:

and - this is the basic thing to me -as you say, in the OP - there is nothing stained or unstained. . . so, especially since you mention it too, this is where I went from your post. . .

Having said that, pure land buddhism definitely considers there to be a Buddha named Amida, who has all-wisdom and Bodhisattva powers - is, as in the present tense - and when we leave this world, if we chant Amida, or are thinking of Amitabha, he will come personally, with a retinue of enlightening Bodhisattvas, and personally deliver us to his pure land.


This is the central tenant of it - and, not to argue of course ( or be averse, but neither craving nor adverse to it, i still do not. . ' the wise do not argue, ' from the dhammapada. . .

however much others do I still have no reason to :) )

but simply to put it out there - and discussion is different from arguing, where your goal is different. . .


okay I'm rambling, please forgive -- but just to say that. .


Also, Pure Land Buddhists in general don't forget this fact ( of non-duality ) too much, as far as I've seen. . . Also the school ( of thought, practice ) is very much connected to Zen, etc, so there's another good reason to keep the non-duality aspect of Buddha's teaching included when considering Pure Land.


the monk Ippen ( in a letter . . . here ),

'The realms of good and evil are all the Pure Land. Outside oft his, do not aspire, do not renounce. Among all living things -- mountains and rivers, grasses and trees, even the sounds of blowing winds and rising waves -- there is nothing that is not the nembetsu. It is not human beings alone who share in the all-supassing Vow.'

But faith in general, Serenity, is pretty ubiquitous in Buddhism. . . just look around - it's almost everywhere in Buddhism. . . the Diamond Sutra, many others. .. from the D.S., something along the lines of ' if someone produces even one thought with great faith. . . '

overall, very well done.

:anjali:

Please take this with a grain of salt, and, as always, live by experience mostly and trust in your heart. . . Faith in one-self is pre-requisite to faith in any other, because faith in another pre-supposes your faith in yourself, in your ability to choose which other person to have faith in as well. . .


So self-faith is necessary, first and foremost. Before one even chooses to trust in the Dharma.

:namaste:
Om Gate Gate Paragate Parasamgate bodhi svaha
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