Question about agamas

Discuss and learn about the traditional Mahayana scriptures, without assuming that any one school ‘owns’ the only correct interpretation.
User avatar
Coëmgenu
Posts: 635
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2016 11:35 pm
Location: Whitby, Ontario

Question about agamas

Postby Coëmgenu » Sat Aug 20, 2016 8:06 pm

Hello all!

I was wondering if anyone could point me to an English translation of the version of the Fire Sermon that comes from the agamas, rather than from the Theravada nikayas.

This is, of course, assuming that the fire sermon appears both in the agamas and the nikayas, but I assume it does?

If an English translation can't be found, where would I look in the Taisho Tripitaka to find it in whichever language it is preserved in?

Thanks
-Caoimhghín
"My pure land is not destroyed,
yet the multitude sees it as consumed in fire,
with anxiety, fear, and other sufferings
filling it everywhere."
(Saddharmapuṇḍarīkasūtra XVI)

All these dharmāḥ are the status of dharma, the standing of dharma, the suchness of dharma; the dharma neither departs from things-as-they-are, nor differs from things-as-they-are; it is the truth, reality, without distortion.(SA 296, 因緣法)
揭諦揭諦,波羅揭諦,波羅僧揭諦,菩提薩婆訶(Prajñāpāramitāhṛdayasya Mantra)

User avatar
dzogchungpa
Posts: 4634
Joined: Sat May 28, 2011 10:50 pm

Re: Question about agamas

Postby dzogchungpa » Sat Aug 20, 2016 8:41 pm

According to this: https://suttacentral.net/sn35
it corresponds to Samyuktagama 197, which can be read here: https://suttacentral.net/lzh/sa197.

There does not appear to be a published translation yet but I wouldn't be surprised if Bhikkhu Analayo has translated it, so you might contact him.

BTW, this seems to be a useful page:
http://buddhism.stackexchange.com/questions/12054/where-can-i-find-the-agama-s-in-english-translation

(hat tip to Leo Rivers)
The whole purpose of Buddhism is to have fun, isn't it? - Dzongsar Jamyang Khyentse Rinpoche

The secret of having fun is nongrasping. - Anam Thubten

User avatar
Coëmgenu
Posts: 635
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2016 11:35 pm
Location: Whitby, Ontario

Re: Question about agamas

Postby Coëmgenu » Sun Aug 21, 2016 2:11 am

dzogchungpa wrote:There does not appear to be a published translation yet but I wouldn't be surprised if Bhikkhu Analayo has translated it, so you might contact him.


Thank you! Is Bhikkhu Analayo on this forum? Can I contact him via here?
-Caoimhghín
"My pure land is not destroyed,
yet the multitude sees it as consumed in fire,
with anxiety, fear, and other sufferings
filling it everywhere."
(Saddharmapuṇḍarīkasūtra XVI)

All these dharmāḥ are the status of dharma, the standing of dharma, the suchness of dharma; the dharma neither departs from things-as-they-are, nor differs from things-as-they-are; it is the truth, reality, without distortion.(SA 296, 因緣法)
揭諦揭諦,波羅揭諦,波羅僧揭諦,菩提薩婆訶(Prajñāpāramitāhṛdayasya Mantra)

User avatar
dzogchungpa
Posts: 4634
Joined: Sat May 28, 2011 10:50 pm

Re: Question about agamas

Postby dzogchungpa » Sun Aug 21, 2016 2:44 am

Coëmgenu wrote:
dzogchungpa wrote:There does not appear to be a published translation yet but I wouldn't be surprised if Bhikkhu Analayo has translated it, so you might contact him.


Thank you! Is Bhikkhu Analayo on this forum? Can I contact him via here?
-Caoimhghín

I don't know if he is on this forum, but somehow I doubt it. :smile:

I can't seem to locate an email address for him, but you could probably get in touch with him using the contact information on these pages;
http://agamaresearch.ddbc.edu.tw/contact
https://www.buddhismuskunde.uni-hamburg.de/en/ueber-uns/kontakt.html
The whole purpose of Buddhism is to have fun, isn't it? - Dzongsar Jamyang Khyentse Rinpoche

The secret of having fun is nongrasping. - Anam Thubten

User avatar
Coëmgenu
Posts: 635
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2016 11:35 pm
Location: Whitby, Ontario

Re: Question about agamas

Postby Coëmgenu » Sun Aug 21, 2016 9:23 am

dzogchungpa wrote:
Coëmgenu wrote:
dzogchungpa wrote:There does not appear to be a published translation yet but I wouldn't be surprised if Bhikkhu Analayo has translated it, so you might contact him.


Thank you! Is Bhikkhu Analayo on this forum? Can I contact him via here?
-Caoimhghín

I don't know if he is on this forum, but somehow I doubt it. :smile:

I can't seem to locate an email address for him, but you could probably get in touch with him using the contact information on these pages;
http://agamaresearch.ddbc.edu.tw/contact
https://www.buddhismuskunde.uni-hamburg.de/en/ueber-uns/kontakt.html


Thanks! I'll look into contacting him, although I am a bit bashful to contact a busy professional at work translating just to try to get an individual translation out of him for private usage.

I've been going through the text and consulting a couple of online dictionaries, and I can more-or-less make it on my own, despite my Classical Chinese comprehension being horrible.

Thank you though, nonetheless, for pointing this resource out to me.

PS, coincidentally, would you happen to know what 神足變化示現 is supposed to be? The best I could get was "divine-attainment change-transformation manifestation", which is more than a little vague.
-Caoimhghín
"My pure land is not destroyed,
yet the multitude sees it as consumed in fire,
with anxiety, fear, and other sufferings
filling it everywhere."
(Saddharmapuṇḍarīkasūtra XVI)

All these dharmāḥ are the status of dharma, the standing of dharma, the suchness of dharma; the dharma neither departs from things-as-they-are, nor differs from things-as-they-are; it is the truth, reality, without distortion.(SA 296, 因緣法)
揭諦揭諦,波羅揭諦,波羅僧揭諦,菩提薩婆訶(Prajñāpāramitāhṛdayasya Mantra)

User avatar
Astus
Former staff member
Posts: 6270
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:22 pm
Location: Budapest

Re: Question about agamas

Postby Astus » Sun Aug 21, 2016 10:49 am

A study of the Chinese, Sanskrit, Tibetan, and Pali versions by Norman Joseph Smith: The 17 Versions of The Buddha's First Discourse
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

User avatar
dzogchungpa
Posts: 4634
Joined: Sat May 28, 2011 10:50 pm

Re: Question about agamas

Postby dzogchungpa » Sun Aug 21, 2016 3:49 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:PS, coincidentally, would you happen to know what 神足變化示現 is supposed to be?

Well, I don't actually know any Chinese but if you type
神足
變化
示現
into http://www.buddhism-dict.net/ddb/
I think you'll be able to figure it out. :smile:

Basically, it seems that it refers to two rddhis or siddhis, that of transformation or nirmana and that of manifestaion or vidarsana

This guy: http://no-sword.jp/blog/2013/02/ says:
"aspects of omnipresence and transformation" but I don't know how reliable that is.

That's what I can come up with at the moment. :smile:
The whole purpose of Buddhism is to have fun, isn't it? - Dzongsar Jamyang Khyentse Rinpoche

The secret of having fun is nongrasping. - Anam Thubten

Fortyeightvows
Posts: 1251
Joined: Mon Oct 06, 2014 2:37 am

Re: Question about agamas

Postby Fortyeightvows » Thu Sep 01, 2016 9:17 am


Sentient Light
Posts: 82
Joined: Thu Sep 15, 2016 8:40 pm

Re: Question about agamas

Postby Sentient Light » Thu Nov 03, 2016 6:26 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:
There does not appear to be a published translation yet but I wouldn't be surprised if Bhikkhu Analayo has translated it, so you might contact him.



Coëmgenu wrote:Thank you! Is Bhikkhu Analayo on this forum? Can I contact him via here?


Bhikkhu Analayo has released the PDFs for sets of his SA translations online on his [url="https://www.buddhismuskunde.uni-hamburg.de/en/personen/analayo.html"]academic profile page.[/url] You can find the collections below all the academic papers, in the "Translations only" category. SA197 is translated in Volume 8 of his SA translations. I've transcribed it below.

Discourse on Being on Fire wrote:Thus have I heard. At one time the Buddha was staying at the cetiya at Gayāsīsa together with a thousand monks, who were all former matted-hair brahmins.

At that time the Blessed One taught the thousand monks by way of performing the three type of miracles.23 What are the three? They are the miracle of psychic power, the miracle of telepathy, and the miracle of instruction. For the miracle of psychic power, the Blessed One entered into an attainment of concentration appropriate for the manifestation of his ascent into the air towards the east to perform [the miracle of psychic power] in the four postures of walking, standing, sitting, and reclining.

He entered into concentration on fire and various type of flames emerged in blue, yellow, red, white, crimson, and crystal colours. He manifested fire and water concurrently. The lower part of his body emitted fire and the upper part of his body emitted water, or else the upper part of his body emitted fire and the lower part of his body emitted water. In the same way he kept going around the four directions. Then, having performed various miracles, the Blessed One sat among the assembly. This is called the miracle of psychic power.

For the miracle of telepathy, [the Blessed One knew] such is the other one’s mind, such is the other one’s intention, such is the other one’s consciousness; the other one should think like this and should not think like that, the other one should give up like this, the other one
should be established in direct realization like this.24 This is called the miracle of telepathy.

For the miracle of instruction, the Blessed spoke thus: “Monks, all is on fire. What is all on fire? That is, the eye is on fire, forms, eye-consciousness,
eye-contact, and feeling arisen in dependence on eye-contact, be it painful, pleasant, or neutral, that is also on fire. [50c]

“In the same way the ear … the nose … the tongue … the body … the mind is on fire, mental objects, mind-consciousness, mind-contact, and feeling arisen in dependence on mind-contact, be it painful, pleasant, or neutral, that is also on fire.

“With what is it on fire? It is on fire with the flames of lust, it is on fire with the flames of anger, it is on fire with the flames of delusion, and it is on fire with the flames of birth, old age, disease, death, worry, sorrow, vexation, and pain.”

At that time, hearing what the Buddha had said, by not clinging the minds of the thousand monks were liberated from the influxes.25

When the Buddha had spoken this discourse, hearing what the Buddha had said the monks were delighted and received it respectfully.


Here are the footnotes:

Bhikkhu Analayo wrote:22 Parallels: SN 35.28 at SN IV 19,22 (= Vin I 34,14), EĀ 24.5 at T II 622b8, the Catuṣ-pariṣat-sūtra, Waldschmidt 1962: 316,6 (§26.2), the Dharmaguptaka Vinaya, T 1428 at T XXII 797a11, the Mahīśāsaka Vinaya, T 1421 at XXII 109b25, the Mūlasarvāstivāda Vinaya, Gnoli 1977: 230,10, with its Chinese and Tibetan counterparts in T1450 at T XXIV 134b4 and Waldschmidt 1962: 317,7 (§26.2), as well as several biographies
of the Buddha preserved in Chinese, such as, e.g., T 185 at T III 483a9 (which just mentions the three miracles), T 189 at T III 650a22, T 191 at T III 962a11, and T196 at T IV 151c29; cf. also Waldschmidt 1951/1967: 193.

23 SN 35.28 does not mention the three miracles and only has a counterpart to the last of these three; cf. also the discussion in Anālayo 2015a:26ff.

24 The translation “direct” is based on the assumption that 身 renders the instrumental kāyena (found at the present juncture in Waldschmidt 1962: 320,17 (§26.14) and Gnoli 1977: 230,29), on the significance of which cf. Anālayo 2011: 379 note 203.

25 On the translation of 不起 as “not clinging” cf. Anālayo 2014: 8 note 17.
:buddha1: Nam mô A di đà Phật :buddha1:
:bow: Nam mô Quan Thế Âm Bồ tát :bow:
:bow: Nam mô Đại Thế Chi Bồ Tát :bow:

:buddha1: Nam mô Bổn sư Thích ca mâu ni Phật :buddha1:
:bow: Nam mô Di lặc Bồ tát :bow:
:bow: Nam mô Địa tạng vương Bồ tát :bow:

Sentient Light
Posts: 82
Joined: Thu Sep 15, 2016 8:40 pm

Re: Question about agamas

Postby Sentient Light » Thu Nov 03, 2016 6:32 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:
There does not appear to be a published translation yet but I wouldn't be surprised if Bhikkhu Analayo has translated it, so you might contact him.



Coëmgenu wrote:Thank you! Is Bhikkhu Analayo on this forum? Can I contact him via here?


Bhikkhu Analayo has released the PDFs for sets of his SA translations online on his academic profile page: https://www.buddhismuskunde.uni-hamburg.de/en/personen/analayo.html You can find the collections below all the academic papers, in the "Translations only" category. SA197 is translated in Volume 8 of his SA translations. I've transcribed it below.

Discourse on Being on Fire wrote:Thus have I heard. At one time the Buddha was staying at the cetiya at Gayāsīsa together with a thousand monks, who were all former matted-hair brahmins.

At that time the Blessed One taught the thousand monks by way of performing the three type of miracles.23 What are the three? They are the miracle of psychic power, the miracle of telepathy, and the miracle of instruction. For the miracle of psychic power, the Blessed One entered into an attainment of concentration appropriate for the manifestation of his ascent into the air towards the east to perform [the miracle of psychic power] in the four postures of walking, standing, sitting, and reclining.

He entered into concentration on fire and various type of flames emerged in blue, yellow, red, white, crimson, and crystal colours. He manifested fire and water concurrently. The lower part of his body emitted fire and the upper part of his body emitted water, or else the upper part of his body emitted fire and the lower part of his body emitted water. In the same way he kept going around the four directions. Then, having performed various miracles, the Blessed One sat among the assembly. This is called the miracle of psychic power.

For the miracle of telepathy, [the Blessed One knew] such is the other one’s mind, such is the other one’s intention, such is the other one’s consciousness; the other one should think like this and should not think like that, the other one should give up like this, the other one
should be established in direct realization like this.24 This is called the miracle of telepathy.

For the miracle of instruction, the Blessed spoke thus: “Monks, all is on fire. What is all on fire? That is, the eye is on fire, forms, eye-consciousness,
eye-contact, and feeling arisen in dependence on eye-contact, be it painful, pleasant, or neutral, that is also on fire. [50c]

“In the same way the ear … the nose … the tongue … the body … the mind is on fire, mental objects, mind-consciousness, mind-contact, and feeling arisen in dependence on mind-contact, be it painful, pleasant, or neutral, that is also on fire.

“With what is it on fire? It is on fire with the flames of lust, it is on fire with the flames of anger, it is on fire with the flames of delusion, and it is on fire with the flames of birth, old age, disease, death, worry, sorrow, vexation, and pain.”

At that time, hearing what the Buddha had said, by not clinging the minds of the thousand monks were liberated from the influxes.25

When the Buddha had spoken this discourse, hearing what the Buddha had said the monks were delighted and received it respectfully.


Here are the footnotes:

Bhikkhu Analayo wrote:22 Parallels: SN 35.28 at SN IV 19,22 (= Vin I 34,14), EĀ 24.5 at T II 622b8, the Catuṣ-pariṣat-sūtra, Waldschmidt 1962: 316,6 (§26.2), the Dharmaguptaka Vinaya, T 1428 at T XXII 797a11, the Mahīśāsaka Vinaya, T 1421 at XXII 109b25, the Mūlasarvāstivāda Vinaya, Gnoli 1977: 230,10, with its Chinese and Tibetan counterparts in T1450 at T XXIV 134b4 and Waldschmidt 1962: 317,7 (§26.2), as well as several biographies
of the Buddha preserved in Chinese, such as, e.g., T 185 at T III 483a9 (which just mentions the three miracles), T 189 at T III 650a22, T 191 at T III 962a11, and T196 at T IV 151c29; cf. also Waldschmidt 1951/1967: 193.

23 SN 35.28 does not mention the three miracles and only has a counterpart to the last of these three; cf. also the discussion in Anālayo 2015a:26ff.

24 The translation “direct” is based on the assumption that 身 renders the instrumental kāyena (found at the present juncture in Waldschmidt 1962: 320,17 (§26.14) and Gnoli 1977: 230,29), on the significance of which cf. Anālayo 2011: 379 note 203.

25 On the translation of 不起 as “not clinging” cf. Anālayo 2014: 8 note 17.
:buddha1: Nam mô A di đà Phật :buddha1:
:bow: Nam mô Quan Thế Âm Bồ tát :bow:
:bow: Nam mô Đại Thế Chi Bồ Tát :bow:

:buddha1: Nam mô Bổn sư Thích ca mâu ni Phật :buddha1:
:bow: Nam mô Di lặc Bồ tát :bow:
:bow: Nam mô Địa tạng vương Bồ tát :bow:

User avatar
Coëmgenu
Posts: 635
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2016 11:35 pm
Location: Whitby, Ontario

Re: Question about agamas

Postby Coëmgenu » Fri Nov 04, 2016 4:53 pm

Sentient Light wrote:
Coëmgenu wrote:Thank you! Is Bhikkhu Analayo on this forum? Can I contact him via here?


Bhikkhu Analayo has released the PDFs for sets of his SA translations online on his academic profile page:
I look back at my guffaw of assuming Bhikkhu Analayo would be a regular poster here, lol. I, at the time, had assumed that the poster who brought up Bhikkhu Analayo knew him personality, for some reason.
"My pure land is not destroyed,
yet the multitude sees it as consumed in fire,
with anxiety, fear, and other sufferings
filling it everywhere."
(Saddharmapuṇḍarīkasūtra XVI)

All these dharmāḥ are the status of dharma, the standing of dharma, the suchness of dharma; the dharma neither departs from things-as-they-are, nor differs from things-as-they-are; it is the truth, reality, without distortion.(SA 296, 因緣法)
揭諦揭諦,波羅揭諦,波羅僧揭諦,菩提薩婆訶(Prajñāpāramitāhṛdayasya Mantra)


Return to “Sūtra Studies”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 7 guests