Astus wrote:As I see it, the Nirvana Sutra uses the word "Void" in different contexts with different meanings. Just as you said, there is a list for 11 kinds, but there can be more depending on context. But let's take a different turn on this. Can you give a definition of buddha-nature? In everyday terms possibly. Then we can match it with whatever meaning of emptiness, or we can't.
HEY ASTUS
the last qoute I gave was the Buddha giving you the definition of Buddha nature(chapter 33)
in truth the only true discription of Buddha nature would be when a 10th level Bodhisattva sees it(but a glimmer) even at this point he is not sure what he saw and ponders what it could be(this is in the sutra also I can mine the qoute if nessecary?)
as the Lotus sutra states the LAW is beyond comprehension PG27(burton watson trans) PG 24 it can only be understood amonst Buddhas,even the 10th level Bodhisattva can only spot it,when he SEES IT(he will no longer be a Bodhisattva but will be a Buddha the tainted ego self ends instantly only the buddha remains)
READ PG 31 of the lotus sutra this explains it ALL(the nirvana sutra is a comentary of the Lotus sutra in all rights)
when I first read it I thought it was simply talking about just new knowledge I never knew that the BUDDHA WISDOM was actually the LAST PRACTICE till I read the Nirvana sutra and it put it as the last practice behind the 11 types of emptiness..
THE QOUTE(notice VERY CAREFULLY page 30,31 is where the 5000 monks walked out,they had thought they had attained final extinction(11 types of emptiness)then the Buddha says that is not the end BUDDHA WISDOM(ALL VOID) is the final teaching.
"The Buddhas, the World-Honored Ones , wish to open the door of Buddha wisdom to all living beings, to allow them to attain purity. That is why they appear in the world. They wish to show the Buddha wisdom to living beings, and therefore they appear in the world. They wish to cause living beings to awaken to the Buddha wisdom, and therefore they appear in the world. They wish to induce living beings to enter the path of Buddha wisdom, and therefore they appear in the world. Shariputra, this is the one great reason for which the Buddhas appear in the world."
The Buddha said to Shariputra, "The Buddhas, the Tathagatas, simply teach and convert the Bodhisattvas. All the things they do are at all times done for this one purpose. They simply wish to show the Buddha wisdom to living beings and enlighten them to it.
"Shariputra, the Tathagatas have only a single Buddha vehicle which they employ in order to preach the Dharma to living beings. They do not have any other vehicle a second one or a third one 1. Shariputra, the Dharma preached by all the Buddhas of the ten directions is the same as this.
"Shariputra, the Buddhas of the past used countless numbers of expedient means, various causes and conditions, and words of simile and parable in order to expound the doctrines for the sake of living beings. These doctrines are all for the sake of the one Buddha vehicle. These living beings, by listening to the doctrines of the Buddhas, are all eventually able to attain wisdom embracing all species.
Shariputra, when the Buddhas of the future make their appearance in the world, they too will use countless numbers of expedient means, various causes and conditions, and words of simile and parable in order to expound the doctrines for the sake of living beings. These doctrines will all be for the sake of the one Buddha vehicle. And these living beings, by listening to the doctrines of the Buddhas, will all eventually be able to attain wisdom embracing all species.
"Shariputra, the Buddhas, the World-Honored Ones, who exist at present in the countless hundreds, thousands, ten thousands, and millions of Buddha lands in the ten directions, benefit and bring peace and happiness to living beings in large measure, these Buddhas too use countless numbers of expedient means, various causes and conditions, and words of simile and parable in order to expound the doctrines for the sake of living beings. These doctrines are all for the sake of the one Buddha vehicle. And these living beings, by listening to the doctrines of the Buddhas, are all eventually able to attain wisdom embracing all species.
"Shariputra, these Buddhas simply teach and convert the Bodhisattvas. They do it because they wish to show the Buddha wisdom to living beings. They do it because they wish to use the Buddha wisdom to enlighten living beings. They do it because they wish to cause living beings to enter the path of Buddha wisdom.
"Shariputra, I too will now do the same, I know that living beings have various desires. Attachments that are deeply implanted in their minds. Taking cognizance of this basic nature of theirs, I will therefore use various causes and conditions, words of simile and parable, and the power of expedient means and expound the Dharma for them. Shariputra, I do this so that all of them may attain the one Buddha vehicle and wisdom embracing all species.
HEY now go back and read my qoute on the Nirvana sutra where it says the 11 emptiness are a stage before the BUDDHA WISDOM(ALL VOID)
this concides with the monks who have attained the 11 types of emptiness and they walked out cause they thought it was nirvana(final extinction) which it wasnt WISDOM(buddha wisdom/ALL void) is the final extinction.PG 30/31/32/35 LS
now read PG 48/49/50 of the LS(burton wastson)here shariputra states that they thought the law of emptiness was the last STAGE but it was not(which is why the 5000 monks got up an walked out casue the Buddha taught the BUDDHA WISDOM was the LAST STAGE.(PG 30/31) NOW jump back to the NIRVANA SUTRA which states the 11 types of emptiness was a stage behind BUDDHA WISDOM(ALL VOID) and the lotus sutra become more clearer now and you can see how those who followed the 11 types of emptiness got up and walked out cause they thought it was the last stage pg 30 then in pg 31 the Buddha states the last stage BUDDHA WISDOM,now go to the nirvana sutra I qouted earlier and you will see why this argument in the LS started to begin with.(those who had attained the LAW of emptiness thought it was the last stage then the Buddha pissed them off cause he said the LAST stage is actually BUDDHA WISDOM(pg 31)which is what the nirvana sutra states.(order of practice)
the law of emptiness as discribed in the 2nd turning has already been established as PROVISIONAL,which is why 5000 monks got up and walked out,when the LAW of WISDOM(BUDDHA WISDOM/ALL VOID) was established as the Last stage.
this itself already shows the seperation of emptiness and all void
anouther example is when the Buddha says he is the self/true self
we all know the self is the tainted ego self we are to get rid of which is why we practice NONSELF/emptiness YET the other meaning is TRUE self which is COMPLETELY different from the tainted self we are to end.
SELF/SELF,TRUE SELF SAME words completely diffrent meanings.
I hope I havent confused you I chose to not put all the qoutes in the post cause it would make this post MASSIVE
I thought next time to post the qoutes striped down and connect them together to show what i mean.
Peace and Love