Buddhist Anarchism

Discuss the application of the Dharma to situations of social, political, environmental and economic suffering and injustice.
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Malcolm
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Re: Buddhist Anarchism

Post by Malcolm »

Malcolm wrote:
tellyontellyon wrote:It sounds sometimes as if I am being accused of putting socialism in place of Buddhism, or accused of saying they are the same thing.
I don't think you ever said any such thing. But I think you know Marxism better than you know Buddhism. And that is sad.

it is a question of whether Marxism is better than capitalism.
I see no evidence that it is.
Capitalism is a rampantly exploitative and violent system. Capitalists are most certainly not pacifists; it is a system that demands expansion and competition and leads inexorably to violence.
Every marxist revolution has ended in slaughter and terror. The fact is that market economies function best when there is an absence of political and military conflict. The market therefore, has a vested interest in peace and social stability.
I think Marx's analysis of capitalism is correct, and the chance of a peaceful transition is far more possible in the modern day. Even in the 19th century Marx saw some possibility of a peaceful transformation in the advanced countries. That possibility is much greater now.
I don't believe it, I think it is a utopian pipe dream.

But if you accept Marx's view that capitalism by it's very nature deprives people of their humanity and essentially robs them by forcing them to give up their labour below its true value, then you will accept there are consequences for allowing this system to continue.
I don't agree with any of these claims.

I say what we need is a little less sanctimonious preaching to the poor that they need to be more 'moral'; and a little more genuine moral behaviour: actually stepping outside of our golden palaces and actually doing something of benefit.
Buddhism is non-evangelical. But if someone asks me, despite their best efforts to get ahead, what they need to do, and they want a Buddhist answer, I will give it to them: generate more merit. It may not ripen in this lifetime, but it will certainly ripen in future lives.
AlexanderS
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Re: Buddhist Anarchism

Post by AlexanderS »

That's a statement which is so sweeping that it simply collapses under its own weight. Ignorance, attachment and aversion do seem to be universal. Greed rather obviously is not - as what we know about various supposedly 'primitive' cultures evinces. In any case, there'd be no logical necessity of greed being an inevitable part of human nature even if every single human culture in the history has suffered from greed. Induction is not deduction.[/quote]

Greed and attachment are very closely linked.

I'm pretty sure that from a buddhist POV greed is a heavily featured characteristic of the six realms of existence atm and in the past. It's a inevitable consequence of samsaric delusion.
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Zhen Li
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Re: Buddhist Anarchism

Post by Zhen Li »

My heart wells up whenever I hear people talk about communism or socialism sincerely, because they're often motivated by a desire to help others, which is really quite nice to see.

That it isn't sufficient for those ends is just unfortunate.

We can only try to guide people onto the Buddhist path, but they must make their own decision.

All countries and polities will fall away and disappear either in the progression of centuries, or ultimately when the earth dries up and is swept away like dust when the sun becomes a red giant. After that, all those beings who did not practice Dharma while focusing on communism and socialism, will just be right back where they started.
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rob h
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Re: Buddhist Anarchism

Post by rob h »

Zhen Li wrote: I used to love Chomsky, I even have a copy of Failed States signed by him in person. But I don't think anyone will really would take Chomsky seriously after the learn about his opinions on the Khmer Rouge. And what are his real opinions on Lenin? I have no idea what to believe any more, because in Language and Politics p. 110 he said that Lenin was "basically fine." All these popular political writers, often seem to have as little scruples as the politicians they criticise. I can't really appreciate them, but I have compassion for their obvious mental suffering.
Maybe there was a lot of propaganda going around about the Khmer Rouge, even if they were really badly messed up, and that just got his back up. As for the Lenin comment, that's bizarre, (maybe an older comment before he researched enough into him?) but if you research further into it, it seems that there's a lot of accuracy in what he's saying. I find the bit about Washington and Moscow both putting out conflicting propaganda about socialism in order to distort the meaning of it as something that makes a lot of sense. The elites/fascists have to distort it after all, because if we have genuine socialism, as in people actually owning their places of work, then the upper class no longer exist. So they'll do whatever they can, and they already have done by the looks of it. If they'll go to war to make money for corporations, you can bet they'll try to distort the meanings of socialism, anarchism, and so on. The last thing they need is for us to start waking up and applying those things, because if so their rule is over.
"A 'position', Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata has done away with." - MN 72
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Grigoris
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Re: Buddhist Anarchism

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Malcolm wrote:People and states have always accumulated capital and they always will...
First of all I find it bizarre that somebody calling themselves a Buddhist would use the term "always" in reference to a worldly dharma. Completely bizarre.

Second of all, there is no evidence to prove that people have always accumulated capital since recorded human history doesn't strech back far enough for us to draw this conclusion.

Thirdly you cannot use the term "state" and always in the same sentence. The state is actually a fairly modern invention. Especially the nation state, as we know it.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
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Zhen Li
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Re: Buddhist Anarchism

Post by Zhen Li »

Buddhists are only human.

But Malcolm may not be so incorrect as you suspect.
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rob h
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Re: Buddhist Anarchism

Post by rob h »

Zhen Li wrote:Buddhists are only human.
If they practice properly they can only be defined as Human up to a certain point. :mrgreen:
"A 'position', Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata has done away with." - MN 72
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Zhen Li
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Re: Buddhist Anarchism

Post by Zhen Li »

They can only be said to practice up to a certain point. There can only be said to be a certain point up to a certain point. :thumbsup:
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rob h
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Re: Buddhist Anarchism

Post by rob h »

Zhen Li wrote:They can only be said to practice up to a certain point. There can only be said to be a certain point up to a certain point. :thumbsup:
Haha, ok, you win!
"A 'position', Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata has done away with." - MN 72
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Zhen Li
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Re: Buddhist Anarchism

Post by Zhen Li »

But I didn't say anything. :thinking:
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rob h
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Re: Buddhist Anarchism

Post by rob h »

Zhen Li wrote:But I didn't say anything. :thinking:
Errrm, we'll call it a draw then.

*runs off*
"A 'position', Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata has done away with." - MN 72
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Grigoris
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Re: Buddhist Anarchism

Post by Grigoris »

Zhen Li wrote:Buddhists are only human.

But Malcolm may not be so incorrect as you suspect.
Yeah right! Or more to the point: You wish! Eternal capitalism??? Somehow, I think not.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
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Grigoris
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Re: Buddhist Anarchism

Post by Grigoris »

phpBB [video]
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Malcolm
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Re: Buddhist Anarchism

Post by Malcolm »

Sherab Dorje wrote:
phpBB [video]
It sure took a lot of money for this dude to appear on Ted talk.
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Grigoris
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Re: Buddhist Anarchism

Post by Grigoris »

Malcolm wrote:It sure took a lot of money for this dude to appear on Ted talk.
Funny that, given we live in a capitalist system. :thinking:
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Malcolm
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Re: Buddhist Anarchism

Post by Malcolm »

Sherab Dorje wrote:
Malcolm wrote:It sure took a lot of money for this dude to appear on Ted talk.
Funny that, given we live in a capitalist system. :thinking:
You will never escape the markets greg, not in your lifetime.
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Grigoris
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Re: Buddhist Anarchism

Post by Grigoris »

Malcolm wrote:
Sherab Dorje wrote:
Malcolm wrote:It sure took a lot of money for this dude to appear on Ted talk.
Funny that, given we live in a capitalist system. :thinking:
You will never escape the markets greg, not in your lifetime.
I realise that hope is up there with the big no-no's, but hell... :tongue:
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Russell
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Re: Buddhist Anarchism

Post by Russell »

Appropriate for this thread:

There will be live webcasts of His Holiness the Dalai Lama's talks and discussions from Washington, DC; Berkeley, California; and Santa Clara, California on February 20-24, 2014.

Times in Washington, DC are Eastern Standard Time (EST = GMT-5.00); times in California are Pacific Standard Time (PST = GMT-8:00)

February 20th: Panel Discussion - "Moral Free Enterprise - Economic Perspectives in Business and Politics"
His Holiness the Dalai lama, Arthur C. Brooks (AEI), Jonathan Haidt (New York University), Glenn Hubbard (Columbia University) and Daniel S. Loeb (Third Point LLC). will join in a discussion hosted by the American Enterprise Institute in Washington, DC. The live webcast can be viewed at http://dalaila.ma/1jMv4il
Time: 9:00am EST

February 20th: Panel Discussion - "Unlocking the Mind and Human Happiness"
His Holiness the Dalai Lama, Richard Davidson (University of Wisconsin), Diana Chapman Walsh (Massachusetts Institute of Technology) and Arthur Zajonc (Mind & Life Institute) join in a discussion co-hosted by the American Enterprise Institute and Mind & Life Insitute in Washington, DC. The live webcast can be viewed at http://dalaila.ma/1jMv4il
Time: 10:30am EST

February 23rd - Public Talk - "How to Achieve Happiness"
His Holiness will give a public talk sponsored by the Tibetan Association of Northern California at the Berkeley Community Theater in Berkeley, California. The live webcast can be viewed at http://www.dalailama.com/live-berkeley
Time: 9:30am - 11:00am PST

February 24th: Discussion - "Business, Ethics, and Compassion: A Public Dialogue"
His Holiness will be joined by the CEO of Dignity Health, Lloyd Dean, for a talk concerning the intersection of organizational life and compassion. His Holiness will also answer questions gathered from the public. The event is hosted by Santa Clara University in Santa Clara, California. The live webcast can be viewed at http://dalaila.ma/1kPF7Ua
Time: 10:00am - 11:30am PST

February 24th: Panel Discussion - "Incorporating Ethics and Compassion into Business Life: A Conversation between His Holiness the Dalai Lama and Academic and Business Leaders"
His Holiness will address a panel that includes four academic and business leaders for a discussion that will encompass religion, research, and business. The event is hosted by Santa Clara University in Santa Clara, California. The live webcast can be viewed at http://dalaila.ma/1kPF7Ua
Time: 1:30pm - 3:15pm PST

For times in your region 10:00am EST on February 20th in Washington DC, is the same as 7:00am PST on February 20th in Berkeley, California; 8:30pm IST on February 20th in New Delhi, India, and 3:00pm on February 20th in London, England.
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Zhen Li
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Re: Buddhist Anarchism

Post by Zhen Li »

Desire to get rid of the market is dveṣa. It's there, you just have to accept it.
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Grigoris
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Re: Buddhist Anarchism

Post by Grigoris »

I love it when you try to use Dharma to justify dharmas. It's a barrel of laughs!
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
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