European refugee crisis

[Loren Enders]

To be honest it is not always irrational fear. There is now smoke without a fire etc.. Recently a woman and her son were murdered in a Ikea store in Sweden. The woman was beheaded by two men shouting "allah akbar". Both the men were asylum seekers from Eritrea.. incidents like these definitely feed into fear even though they aren't the norm.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... -IKEA.html

In my country, refugees and immigrants from Somalia have intergrated terribly. In my opinion it's not surprising that people who come from frak up parts of the world have a greater disposition to frak up themselves.

Gotta try to believe in the basic goodness of people.

[AlexanderS]

To be honest it is not always irrational fear. There is now smoke without a fire etc.. Recently a woman and her son were murdered in a Ikea store in Sweden. The woman was beheaded by two men shouting "allah akbar". Both the men were asylum seekers from Eritrea.. incidents like these definitely feed into fear even though they aren't the norm.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... -IKEA.html

In my country, refugees and immigrants from Somalia have intergrated terribly. In my opinion it's not surprising that people who come from frak up parts of the world have a greater disposition to frak up themselves.

Gotta try to believe in the basic goodness of people.

There is no arguing with that

[Brunelleschi]

To be honest it is not always irrational fear. There is now smoke without a fire etc.. Recently a woman and her son were murdered in a Ikea store in Sweden. The woman was beheaded by two men shouting "allah akbar". Both the men were asylum seekers from Eritrea.. incidents like these definitely feed into fear even though they aren't the norm.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... -IKEA.html

In my country, refugees and immigrants from Somalia have intergrated terribly. In my opinion it's not surprising that people who come from frak up parts of the world have a greater disposition to frak up themselves.

Ok that bit about the beheading sounds like pure fantasy. It is never mentioned in the article and when I tried to google it all I could find was a blurry photo from anti-islamic websites. Besides, christians are the majority in Eritrea and according to this article: "http://www.expressen.se/nyheter/ikea-va ... avsparrat/"; the 36-year old man conducting the killing was indeed christian.

[AlexanderS]

To be honest it is not always irrational fear. There is now smoke without a fire etc.. Recently a woman and her son were murdered in a Ikea store in Sweden. The woman was beheaded by two men shouting "allah akbar". Both the men were asylum seekers from Eritrea.. incidents like these definitely feed into fear even though they aren't the norm.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... -IKEA.html

In my country, refugees and immigrants from Somalia have intergrated terribly. In my opinion it's not surprising that people who come from frak up parts of the world have a greater disposition to frak up themselves.

Ok that bit about the beheading sounds like pure fantasy. It is never mentioned in the article and when I tried to google it all I could find was a blurry photo from anti-islamic websites. Besides, christians are the majority in Eritrea and according to this article: "http://www.expressen.se/nyheter/ikea-va ... avsparrat/"; the 36-year old man conducting the killing was indeed christian.

I apologize if the information I provided is incorrect. It's still pretty terrible none the less.

[Kim O'Hara]

To be honest it is not always irrational fear. There is now smoke without a fire etc.. Recently a woman and her son were murdered in a Ikea store in Sweden. The woman was beheaded by two men shouting "allah akbar". Both the men were asylum seekers from Eritrea.. incidents like these definitely feed into fear even though they aren't the norm.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... -IKEA.html

In my country, refugees and immigrants from Somalia have intergrated terribly. In my opinion it's not surprising that people who come from frak up parts of the world have a greater disposition to frak up themselves.

Ok that bit about the beheading sounds like pure fantasy. It is never mentioned in the article and when I tried to google it all I could find was a blurry photo from anti-islamic websites. Besides, christians are the majority in Eritrea and according to this article: "http://www.expressen.se/nyheter/ikea-va ... avsparrat/"; the 36-year old man conducting the killing was indeed christian.

I apologize if the information I provided is incorrect. It's still pretty terrible none the less.

You're not thinking very clearly here, Alexander. If it wasn't true and didn't happen, it wasn't terrible. Furthermore, you have unjustly smeared all asylum-seekers ... I think an apology to them, for the false accusation, and us, for misleading us, might be more appropriate than the response you gave us.

Kim

[Kim O'Hara]

Some (moderately) good news:

EU states have agreed on a deal to relocate 120,000 asylum seekers from countries on the frontline despite opposition from eastern members.
...
Britain has opted out of the plan, as it is able to do under the EU's Treaty.
Ireland, which also has an opt-out, has opted in and said it will take 4,000.
Demmark, which is excluded from migration issues under the EU Treaty, has said it will take 1,000.
Switzerland and Norway as countries in the EU's Schengen passport-free zone have "declared their readiness to participate".

Visit http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-09-23/e ... ke/6797438 for more details.


Kim

[AlexanderS]

You're not thinking very clearly here, Alexander. If it wasn't true and didn't happen, it wasn't terrible. Furthermore, you have unjustly smeared all asylum-seekers ... I think an apology to them, for the false accusation, and us, for misleading us, might be more appropriate than the response you gave us.

No, the random murder of a mother and child in Ikea in Sweden by asylum seekers from Eritrea is true enough. It's the details about whether the mother was beheaded and the religion of the accused that is in question.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... weden.html

http://www.thelocal.se/20150811/ikea-su ... um-and-son

[AlexanderS]

I have also not smeared all aylum seekers.

[Kim O'Hara]

I have also not smeared all aylum seekers.

You blamed a random murder on Muslims (falsely) and identified them as asylum seekers (correctly) and Africans (correctly). What is the point or relevance of identifying the accused as Muslims, Africans and asylum seekers except to smear those three groups - groups which are already unfairly maligned and maltreated in Europe?

If the accused happened to be (for instance) Italian Catholics, would you have mentioned their ethnicity or religion? Would anyone have invented the lurid extra details?

We can choose to feed prejudice or starve it. I think the more responsible path is to starve prejudice - but to do that, we've got to be aware of its arising.


Kim

[DGA]

In my country, refugees and immigrants from Somalia have intergrated terribly. In my opinion it's not surprising that people who come from frak up parts of the world have a greater disposition to frak up themselves.

It's true that people who have endured trauma tend to remain traumatized, and have a lot to process, wherever they go.

In our area, we have many immigrants from Somalia, Eritrea, and Ethiopia. It seems overall that they've integrated well into the community; the odds are very high that if you hire a taxicab, you will be driven to your destination by someone from the Horn of Africa. Many earn their pay by selling the cuisine of their home countries to everyone else. You'll find women in traditional Somali dress working with everyone's children at daycare centers. Those things are impossible without an open attitude going both directions. So it's possible.

I know it's hard to generalize about Europe, but as an outsider looking in, it seems as though some countries have done a better job than others at integrating immigrant populations. It's not something that happens by accident; communities have to learn how to do it, and a certain infrastructure needs to be in place.

[treehuggingoctopus]

Those things are impossible without an open attitude going both directions. So it's possible.

It obviously is possible, and frankly speaking works well without strenuous effort on the part of the hosting community.

The whole notion that the multicultural society is an utter failure as such, or even mostly a failure, is a piece of propaganda removed light years away from reality. Are the integration and mutual tolerance perfect? Of course not! There are occasional tensions, just as there will be (rare) violence. But it is still the best kind of society presently available.

[kirtu]

In my country, refugees and immigrants from Somalia have intergrated terribly. In my opinion it's not surprising that people who come from frak up parts of the world have a greater disposition to frak up themselves.

It's true that people who have endured trauma tend to remain traumatized, and have a lot to process, wherever they go.

In our area, we have many immigrants from Somalia, Eritrea, and Ethiopia. It seems overall that they've integrated well into the community; the odds are very high that if you hire a taxicab, you will be driven to your destination by someone from the Horn of Africa. Many earn their pay by selling the cuisine of their home countries to everyone else. You'll find women in traditional Somali dress working with everyone's children at daycare centers. Those things are impossible without an open attitude going both directions. So it's possible.

Thuis is of course true. But as I have had to be reminded more than once, the DC-Northern Virginia area is almost unique in terms of true multi-culturalism. As such it is a beacon of light for the world.

Kirt

[AlexanderS]

I have also not smeared all aylum seekers.

You blamed a random murder on Muslims (falsely) and identified them as asylum seekers (correctly) and Africans (correctly). What is the point or relevance of identifying the accused as Muslims, Africans and asylum seekers except to smear those three groups - groups which are already unfairly maligned and maltreated in Europe?

If the accused happened to be (for instance) Italian Catholics, would you have mentioned their ethnicity or religion? Would anyone have invented the lurid extra details?

We can choose to feed prejudice or starve it. I think the more responsible path is to starve prejudice - but to do that, we've got to be aware of its arising.


Kim

The reason why I identified them as muslims is because I read incorrect news. The reason why it's releveant to this thread is because we are discussing an refugee crisis consisting mainly of muslims. The point I was trying to make is that mass immigration from messed up parts of the World comes with very real problems. The example I brought up was in the context Sweden and it's open borders which we were discussing.. It was not my intention to smear all refugees as blood thirsty murderers, but I don't feel I did.

[Kim O'Hara]

... the DC-Northern Virginia area is almost unique in terms of true multi-culturalism. As such it is a beacon of light for the world.

Kirt

I am glad to hear that at least one part of the US is getting it right.
It can be tricky, but it's certainly achievable. Australia does it pretty well, too, in spite of the occasional loony-right politician appealing to the fears and prejudices of the voters.
We all know that people fear what they don't understand, so it would make sense that there is more hostility to foreigners in countries with fewest immigrants, i.e. those with least reason for real concern. I don't know if this hunch checks out - anyone care to comment on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... population?


Kim

[Loren Enders]

I don't think any of us would want to live with Bashar al-Assad as our leader.

[AlexanderS]

... the DC-Northern Virginia area is almost unique in terms of true multi-culturalism. As such it is a beacon of light for the world.

Kirt

I am glad to hear that at least one part of the US is getting it right.
It can be tricky, but it's certainly achievable. Australia does it pretty well, too, in spite of the occasional loony-right politician appealing to the fears and prejudices of the voters.
We all know that people fear what they don't understand, so it would make sense that there is more hostility to foreigners in countries with fewest immigrants, i.e. those with least reason for real concern. I don't know if this hunch checks out - anyone care to comment on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... population?


Kim

Not really.. Saudi Arabia and the emirates(Which are high in the chart) loves to take in cheap Labour from asia under slave Labour conditions, but won't take in refugees.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wor ... -refugees/

Australia doesn't seem welcoming of everyone either.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/m ... a-refugees

[Kim O'Hara]

Hi, Alexander,
You have cited two special cases -
Saudi Arabia and the Emirates don't take immigrants but (as you noted) labourers.
Australia (I live in it!) has a government which chose to make political capital out of ramping up dumb paranoia and then saying they would "stop the boats" and "make us safe". The government does not speak for the majority of its citizens on this issue!!
The real situation on the ground here is that most people do welcome refugees and wish our government wasn't so pig-headedly bloody-minded - and the the Opposition would show some backbone instead of abjectly following the government line.
We have just acquired a new PM (party-room coup, not an election) but the policies haven't changed. Here's a result:

12032147_974240445947435_2347754424450227206_n.jpg (123.89 KiB) Viewed 4767 times

Kim

[AlexanderS]

Im pretty sure people who migrate to a country to work count as immigrants. Wiki definition

"Immigration is the movement of people into a destination country to which they are not native or do not possess its citizenship in order to settle or reside there, especially as permanent residents or naturalized citizens, or to take-up employment as a migrant worker or temporarily as a foreign worker."

[joy&peace]

Fascinating thread; I have only read the first page and this one, so if someone already mentioned this, please forgive me.

An Egyptian billionaire early this month has offered to buy an island to give to the refugees;

This short article is very well-written,

http://money.cnn.com/2015/09/04/news/re ... llionaire/

just a couple of quotes from it-

'"It's a very simple solution," he told CNN Friday. "They sell the island to me and I'll make a temporary shelter for these people. I'll make a small port or marina for the boats to land there. I'll employ the people to build their own homes, their schools, a hospital, a university, a hotel," he said.'

. . .

'"All I need is the permission to put these people on this island. After that I don't need anything anymore from them. I'll pay them for the island, I'll provide the jobs, I'll take care of all the logistics. I know I can do that," he said during his CNN interview.'


I look forward to, in the coming years, seeing how this played out with this endeavor.

[gloriasteinem]

This is planned attack on europe, this is what is called Hijra in Islam. I'm glad that hungary takes rational step to this - the stake is too high, if you see arabic world, muslims patrols in uk, in germany what happening, they are not respectful in group, there are nice to have things later on they change unless you convert to islam, this is what it is, you can't help it, they manufactured that way and will eat the whole till islam prevail.

I agree with you.