Kundalini Awakening vs Buddhist Awakening

Discussion of meditation in the Mahayana and Vajrayana traditions.

Re: Kundalini Awakening vs Buddhist Awakening

Postby deepbluehum » Wed Jan 16, 2013 7:34 am

Adamantine wrote:
deepbluehum wrote:A guru with a lineage will give shaktipat in an initiation ceremony. I received it from several gurus. The best was Anandi Ma. She holds an excellent lineage of Mahayoga. It is not Bhakti. I'm Indian from a religious family so I know the difference. Maha Siddha Yoga gurus teach that Shaktipat arouses emotions as it purifies them. Those with karmic imprints of yoga in past lives would only experiences emotions of the higher realms so they might only feel uplifted or radiance as was the case for me. When the imprints are purified one can achieve jivan mukti. There is no emotion at the time of fruit. But it's not the same view action fruit in dzogchen or mahamudra. There are many reasons why this is so. You can debate amongst yourselves.

Buddhism doesn't work this way. Whatever exotic experience you are prone to believe in notwithstanding, again many reasons why this is so. In short, take Longchenpa's divisions of Ati where at the top even introduction is no importance. Ati yoga is the highest of all yanas. Shaktipat is the lowest. You can debate amongst yourselves.


You may have some specific experiences based on your own karmic connection, your family and personal experiences with Anandi Ma, etc. But I think you'd be surprised about the variation of this term, the expression of it and how it manifests according to lineage. I do agree that generally how it is practiced in non-Buddhist contexts is not comparable to the type of Guru yoga we have access to in Dzogchen lineage. Of course, we must have confidence in this, it is the path we have chosen and for good reasons. I don't think there is much of a reason for any debate here. However, in my own experience I would not say that emotion, even what you categorize as "experience or emotions of the higher realms" is a necessary or defining characteristic of the transmission of shakti. There are probably different frameworks and different flavors of energy transmission that evoke varying experiences.. and maybe we are both right. We'll probably just have to agree to disagree here because much of it is not easily framed in language and we might just be talking past each other unknowingly.


It's actually pretty simple. Shaktipat comes from the lineage of Kundalini Siddha Yoga aka Maha Yoga. There's no other lineage in India where this originates. If you want to know the teaching you have refer to them re guru manta, automatic kriyas, rising kundalini from muladhara to sahasrar, etc. From the Buddhist standpoint these experiences are only due to illusion. If one has a stable Mahamudra practice for example, there won't be any experiences of kundalini rising up a sushumna. Why. Because the view is beyond three times. Thinking this is analogous to tummo is also based on a misunderstanding of Buddhism. In Buddhism the body is not something to be shed and the channels etc are not real. The practice is done with visualization and nothing is believed to really be happening. In shaktipat the idea is that there is some entity agency that acts upon you even without your wanting it to. This is all completely dependent on your belief, opinion and emotion. It's only attachment.
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Re: Kundalini Awakening vs Buddhist Awakening

Postby Konchog1 » Wed Jan 16, 2013 7:38 am

deepbluehum wrote:channels etc are not real. The practice is done with visualization and nothing is believed to really be happening. In shaktipat the idea is that there is some entity agency that acts upon you even without your wanting it to.
Hmm...my understanding is that the channels aren't real but their practice do alter your body/mind. Is this what your saying?
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Re: Kundalini Awakening vs Buddhist Awakening

Postby deepbluehum » Wed Jan 16, 2013 4:32 pm

Konchog1 wrote:
deepbluehum wrote:channels etc are not real. The practice is done with visualization and nothing is believed to really be happening. In shaktipat the idea is that there is some entity agency that acts upon you even without your wanting it to.
Hmm...my understanding is that the channels aren't real but their practice do alter your body/mind. Is this what your saying?


It's just a beginning stage. Nothing has arisen, so nothing is changing.
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Re: Kundalini Awakening vs Buddhist Awakening

Postby Johnny Dangerous » Wed Jan 16, 2013 5:01 pm

My understanding of the channels in Tantra from what little i've read is that they are illusion of apprehended, apprehender, and non-dual...not that they "don't exist" exactly, but that they are simply these things, which creates the illusion of a seperate existence..is this not correct?

Also, Tibetan Buddhism is not the only Buddhism which has used channels, there are also esoteric Chinese practices that involve something similar to Kundalini awakening, as least to my limited ear. I have no idea how widely practiced they are, or even if they are practiced at all any more, but they definitely exist.
Last edited by Johnny Dangerous on Wed Jan 16, 2013 5:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Kundalini Awakening vs Buddhist Awakening

Postby Jeff » Wed Jan 16, 2013 5:20 pm

deepbluehum wrote:
In shaktipat the idea is that there is some entity agency that acts upon you even without your wanting it to. This is all completely dependent on your belief, opinion and emotion. It's only attachment.


Kundalini can be described as any energy movement in the body that happens on an unconscious level. Only certain traditions/cultures attribute the energy flows to an entity agency. The reason that the energy flows happen unconsciously is because the individual has not yet reached the clarity of mind necessary. If one waits until they have reached the "level" of quiet mind, the energy may be consciously controlled.

Best, Jeff
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Re: Kundalini Awakening vs Buddhist Awakening

Postby lowlydog » Wed Jan 16, 2013 5:26 pm

Jeff wrote:
Kundalini can be described as any energy movement in the body that happens on an unconscious level.


I would say sub-conscious level there is no unconscious level, Kundalini energy is continuously flowing through the body, we just need to develope awareness at the sub-conscious level. For this we need to sharpen the mind. :smile:
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Re: Kundalini Awakening vs Buddhist Awakening

Postby Jeff » Wed Jan 16, 2013 7:56 pm

lowlydog wrote:
Jeff wrote:
Kundalini can be described as any energy movement in the body that happens on an unconscious level.


I would say sub-conscious level there is no unconscious level, Kundalini energy is continuously flowing through the body, we just need to develope awareness at the sub-conscious level. For this we need to sharpen the mind. :smile:


Fair enough. :smile:
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Re: Kundalini Awakening vs Buddhist Awakening

Postby deepbluehum » Wed Jan 16, 2013 8:21 pm

Jeff wrote:
deepbluehum wrote:
In shaktipat the idea is that there is some entity agency that acts upon you even without your wanting it to. This is all completely dependent on your belief, opinion and emotion. It's only attachment.


Kundalini can be described as any energy movement in the body that happens on an unconscious level. Only certain traditions/cultures attribute the energy flows to an entity agency. The reason that the energy flows happen unconsciously is because the individual has not yet reached the clarity of mind necessary. If one waits until they have reached the "level" of quiet mind, the energy may be consciously controlled.

Best, Jeff


You are either making up your own or talking about a different tradition. I'm talking about Kundalini Maha Yoga. Kundalini is a mother goddess there.
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Re: Kundalini Awakening vs Buddhist Awakening

Postby Jeff » Wed Jan 16, 2013 8:31 pm

deepbluehum wrote:
Jeff wrote:
deepbluehum wrote:
In shaktipat the idea is that there is some entity agency that acts upon you even without your wanting it to. This is all completely dependent on your belief, opinion and emotion. It's only attachment.


Kundalini can be described as any energy movement in the body that happens on an unconscious level. Only certain traditions/cultures attribute the energy flows to an entity agency. The reason that the energy flows happen unconsciously is because the individual has not yet reached the clarity of mind necessary. If one waits until they have reached the "level" of quiet mind, the energy may be consciously controlled.

Best, Jeff


You are either making up your own or talking about a different tradition. I'm talking about Kundalini Maha Yoga. Kundalini is a mother goddess there.


As I stated in the above post, only certain traditions (like Kundalini Maha Yoga) describe Kundalini as a mother goddess. The concept of skaktipat and kundalini (snake) energy exist in many traditions. But, the purpose of my post was to describe what "Kundalini energy" is (not the yoga). My perspective comes from having Kundalini energy for over ten years.

Regards, Jeff
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Re: Kundalini Awakening vs Buddhist Awakening

Postby deepbluehum » Wed Jan 16, 2013 10:02 pm

Jeff wrote:
deepbluehum wrote:
Jeff wrote:
Kundalini can be described as any energy movement in the body that happens on an unconscious level. Only certain traditions/cultures attribute the energy flows to an entity agency. The reason that the energy flows happen unconsciously is because the individual has not yet reached the clarity of mind necessary. If one waits until they have reached the "level" of quiet mind, the energy may be consciously controlled.

Best, Jeff


You are either making up your own or talking about a different tradition. I'm talking about Kundalini Maha Yoga. Kundalini is a mother goddess there.


As I stated in the above post, only certain traditions (like Kundalini Maha Yoga) describe Kundalini as a mother goddess. The concept of skaktipat and kundalini (snake) energy exist in many traditions. But, the purpose of my post was to describe what "Kundalini energy" is (not the yoga). My perspective comes from having Kundalini energy for over ten years.

Regards, Jeff


Just tooting your own horn then. Thats what i thought. Kundalini Maha Yoga is the source of kundalini teachings. Not a rip off. And My experience is 33 years old. There's always someone with more experience. What kundalini is comes from the guru. From the guru, kundalini is the Parashakti in the human body. It is the quintessential mother energy. Being a mother, she cares for everyone, and is the destiny of everyone to awaken now or later. The lineage gurus can awaken kundalini and no one else. A very different tradition than Buddhist. Of course you are free to say whatever pops into your head and to tout your own experience in the competition for followers, but be forewarned that those with lineage transmissions can see right through the facade of experience and unless you are prepared to demonstrate your lineage, you will expose yourself. Best to keep quiet until you can spend the necessary time with the gurus.
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Re: Kundalini Awakening vs Buddhist Awakening

Postby Jeff » Wed Jan 16, 2013 10:33 pm

deepbluehum wrote:
Jeff wrote:
deepbluehum wrote:
You are either making up your own or talking about a different tradition. I'm talking about Kundalini Maha Yoga. Kundalini is a mother goddess there.


As I stated in the above post, only certain traditions (like Kundalini Maha Yoga) describe Kundalini as a mother goddess. The concept of skaktipat and kundalini (snake) energy exist in many traditions. But, the purpose of my post was to describe what "Kundalini energy" is (not the yoga). My perspective comes from having Kundalini energy for over ten years.

Regards, Jeff


Just tooting your own horn then. Thats what i thought. Kundalini Maha Yoga is the source of kundalini teachings. Not a rip off. And My experience is 33 years old. There's always someone with more experience. What kundalini is comes from the guru. From the guru, kundalini is the Parashakti in the human body. It is the quintessential mother energy. Being a mother, she cares for everyone, and is the destiny of everyone to awaken now or later. The lineage gurus can awaken kundalini and no one else. A very different tradition than Buddhist. Of course you are free to say whatever pops into your head and to tout your own experience in the competition for followers, but be forewarned that those with lineage transmissions can see right through the facade of experience and unless you are prepared to demonstrate your lineage, you will expose yourself. Best to keep quiet until you can spend the necessary time with the gurus.


I don't understand your motivation for the above comment. Also, i am not looking for any "followers" or "tooting my own horn". I apologize if i have some how offended your religious views. I was just sharing information. Kundalini (or the energy of creation) part of existence and not subject to any one "lineage". In Gnostic Christianity, Kundalini is known as the "power of the Holy Spirit". In Taoism, it is that which forms "10,000 things". There exist countless others.

Additionally, in most traditions "mother energy" can directly manifest to whomever "she" deems appropriate rather than just "through" a living guru.

Finally, if you think it would be helpful (or interesting), I would be happy to discuss (demonstrate) details of kundalini, it's impact on the energy body and existence in general.

Best wishes, Jeff
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Re: Kundalini Awakening vs Buddhist Awakening

Postby deepbluehum » Wed Jan 16, 2013 11:25 pm

Jeff wrote:
deepbluehum wrote:
Jeff wrote:
As I stated in the above post, only certain traditions (like Kundalini Maha Yoga) describe Kundalini as a mother goddess. The concept of skaktipat and kundalini (snake) energy exist in many traditions. But, the purpose of my post was to describe what "Kundalini energy" is (not the yoga). My perspective comes from having Kundalini energy for over ten years.

Regards, Jeff


Just tooting your own horn then. Thats what i thought. Kundalini Maha Yoga is the source of kundalini teachings. Not a rip off. And My experience is 33 years old. There's always someone with more experience. What kundalini is comes from the guru. From the guru, kundalini is the Parashakti in the human body. It is the quintessential mother energy. Being a mother, she cares for everyone, and is the destiny of everyone to awaken now or later. The lineage gurus can awaken kundalini and no one else. A very different tradition than Buddhist. Of course you are free to say whatever pops into your head and to tout your own experience in the competition for followers, but be forewarned that those with lineage transmissions can see right through the facade of experience and unless you are prepared to demonstrate your lineage, you will expose yourself. Best to keep quiet until you can spend the necessary time with the gurus.


I don't understand your motivation for the above comment. Also, i am not looking for any "followers" or "tooting my own horn". I apologize if i have some how offended your religious views. I was just sharing information. Kundalini (or the energy of creation) part of existence and not subject to any one "lineage". In Gnostic Christianity, Kundalini is known as the "power of the Holy Spirit". In Taoism, it is that which forms "10,000 things". There exist countless others.

Additionally, in most traditions "mother energy" can directly manifest to whomever "she" deems appropriate rather than just "through" a living guru.

Finally, if you think it would be helpful (or interesting), I would be happy to discuss (demonstrate) details of kundalini, it's impact on the energy body and existence in general.

Best wishes, Jeff


New Age mumbo jumbo. I'm not interested in what you think you know, or your fantasies. It's sad you are too proud to find a real guru. Such poverty.
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Re: Kundalini Awakening vs Buddhist Awakening

Postby wisdom » Thu Jan 17, 2013 12:43 am

deepbluehum wrote:Just tooting your own horn then. Thats what i thought. Kundalini Maha Yoga is the source of kundalini teachings. Not a rip off. And My experience is 33 years old. There's always someone with more experience. What kundalini is comes from the guru. From the guru, kundalini is the Parashakti in the human body. It is the quintessential mother energy. Being a mother, she cares for everyone, and is the destiny of everyone to awaken now or later. The lineage gurus can awaken kundalini and no one else. A very different tradition than Buddhist. Of course you are free to say whatever pops into your head and to tout your own experience in the competition for followers, but be forewarned that those with lineage transmissions can see right through the facade of experience and unless you are prepared to demonstrate your lineage, you will expose yourself. Best to keep quiet until you can spend the necessary time with the gurus.


What if your Kundalini has awakened but you have had no conscious contact with any kind of Maha Yoga Guru who could awaken it? What does a person do when this happens, because reportedly it happens all the time to people from all walks of life. Is it really Kundalini which has awakened, or something else?
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Re: Kundalini Awakening vs Buddhist Awakening

Postby Jeff » Thu Jan 17, 2013 12:53 am

deepbluehum wrote:
Jeff wrote:
deepbluehum wrote:
Just tooting your own horn then. Thats what i thought. Kundalini Maha Yoga is the source of kundalini teachings. Not a rip off. And My experience is 33 years old. There's always someone with more experience. What kundalini is comes from the guru. From the guru, kundalini is the Parashakti in the human body. It is the quintessential mother energy. Being a mother, she cares for everyone, and is the destiny of everyone to awaken now or later. The lineage gurus can awaken kundalini and no one else. A very different tradition than Buddhist. Of course you are free to say whatever pops into your head and to tout your own experience in the competition for followers, but be forewarned that those with lineage transmissions can see right through the facade of experience and unless you are prepared to demonstrate your lineage, you will expose yourself. Best to keep quiet until you can spend the necessary time with the gurus.


I don't understand your motivation for the above comment. Also, i am not looking for any "followers" or "tooting my own horn". I apologize if i have some how offended your religious views. I was just sharing information. Kundalini (or the energy of creation) part of existence and not subject to any one "lineage". In Gnostic Christianity, Kundalini is known as the "power of the Holy Spirit". In Taoism, it is that which forms "10,000 things". There exist countless others.

Additionally, in most traditions "mother energy" can directly manifest to whomever "she" deems appropriate rather than just "through" a living guru.

Finally, if you think it would be helpful (or interesting), I would be happy to discuss (demonstrate) details of kundalini, it's impact on the energy body and existence in general.

Best wishes, Jeff


New Age mumbo jumbo. I'm not interested in what you think you know, or your fantasies. It's sad you are too proud to find a real guru. Such poverty.


Is Kashmir Shaivism also "new age"?

From "The Stanzas on Vibration" (Stanzas 19-21)

The streams of the pulsation (Spanda) of the qualities along with the other (principles) are grounded in the universal vibration (of consciousness) and so attain being; therefor they can never obstruct the enlightened.

Yet for those whose intuition slumbers; (these vibrations of consciousness) are intent on disrupting their own fundamental state of being (Svasthiti), casting them down the terrible path of transmigration so hard to cross.

Therefore he who strives constantly to discern the (Spanda) principle rapidly attains his own (true) state of being even while in the waking state itself.



Best wishes on your path.
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Re: Kundalini Awakening vs Buddhist Awakening

Postby Adamantine » Thu Jan 17, 2013 2:56 am

deepbluehum wrote:
Just tooting your own horn then. Thats what i thought. Kundalini Maha Yoga is the source of kundalini teachings. Not a rip off. And My experience is 33 years old. There's always someone with more experience.


Sounds like you are tooting!
I have 38 yrs experience so looks like I have you trumped.
And what I have learned and experienced of kundalini lineage and result does not agree with everything you say.
That said, I believe that this is what you've learned and it is what you believe. But despite your claims, there is more variation
in how things manifest in the yogic traditions than your narrow historic version. The lineage of my parents began with an avadhoot, who never framed things in the way you do. And yet, everything he did was a direct transmission of this energy.

"In the beginners mind there are many possibilities, in the experts mind there are few" ~Suzuki Roshi


Maybe the experts need to go back to the cushion (myself included!)

We can also focus on the points we agree on. I have already said that there are reasons the Vajrayana Buddhist approach to issues of the subtle body and winds are superior, and this directly relates to view and motivation. People can relate to kundalini and shakti with impure view and motivation and achieve quite a powerful result, and become wicked guru figures that do much harm. I have witnessed this happen. Clearly this can also happen in the Vajrayana tradition, but it generally will not in the case of sincere practitioners whom are keeping mindful of the essence of dharma: proper view and motivation.
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Re: Kundalini Awakening vs Buddhist Awakening

Postby greentara » Sat Jan 19, 2013 2:16 pm

deepbluehum, "the lineage gurus can awaken kundalini and no one else" You're possibly being too narrow, the rising of the kundalini is mysterious. I read an interesting account by Lucia Osborne apparently she was packing in readiness to escape the worst effects of the summer heat in South India when she had a most unusual and wonderful experience. incidently she was a devotee of Ramana Maharshi.
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Re: Kundalini Awakening vs Buddhist Awakening

Postby lowlydog » Sat Jan 19, 2013 3:34 pm

greentara wrote:deepbluehum, "the lineage gurus can awaken kundalini and no one else" You're possibly being too narrow, the rising of the kundalini is mysterious. I read an interesting account by Lucia Osborne apparently she was packing in readiness to escape the worst effects of the summer heat in South India when she had a most unusual and wonderful experience. incidently she was a devotee of Ramana Maharshi.


Could you explain what a lineage guru is?
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Re: Kundalini Awakening vs Buddhist Awakening

Postby Adamantine » Sat Jan 19, 2013 5:49 pm

greentara wrote:deepbluehum, "the lineage gurus can awaken kundalini and no one else" You're possibly being too narrow, the rising of the kundalini is mysterious. I read an interesting account by Lucia Osborne apparently she was packing in readiness to escape the worst effects of the summer heat in South India when she had a most unusual and wonderful experience. incidently she was a devotee of Ramana Maharshi.


Well, not to mention one of the most famous documenter's of their experience of kundalini awakening was Gopi Krishna, who had it happen spontaneously without intention and without a Guru's transmission, etc.
http://www.amazon.com/Awakening-Kundalini-Gopi-Krishna/dp/0917776062/ref=la_B001H9RRO0_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1358614053&sr=1-1
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Re: Kundalini Awakening vs Buddhist Awakening

Postby xabir » Sat Jan 19, 2013 7:20 pm

Kundalini Awakening finally results in the awakening to the cosmic/infinite consciousness that is then equated with the 'true self' or 'atman-brahman', the goal of Hinduism. This is NOT the same as Buddhist enlightenment. (there are major differences between buddhist and hindu realization, see for example: http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.sg/2 ... ience.html )


I am in full agreement with what the Archaya Mahayogi Shridhar Rinpoche says here:

http://www.byomakusuma.org/Teachings/Ma ... Part2.aspx

Here we are talking about genuine high level Samadhis of Pure awareness by itself where the person remains absorbed in it for six, twelve or twenty four hours without taking a single breath. Even such an experience is not considered as having penetrated the veil of Ignorance, what to speak about watered down, thoughtless states of clear awareness where the person is not even in the first dhyana level. Such experiences of thoughtless awareness by itself without entering into various levels of Samadhis are even further away from the Buddhist enlightenment. Such states can be easily produced and are not considered as either enlightenment or even near to it. In fact, according to all Buddhist traditions especially the Mahayana, such states are considered dangerous and if the correct view is not present can be even detrimental to the process of enlightenment. The great Siddha Pandit of Tibet, Sakya Pandit said cultivation of such Pure awareness without the correct view can cause the person to be reborn either in the formless Deva realm or as a Naga etc. To be reborn in the formless Deva realm (Arupa dhatu Deva Loka) is considered as the worst birth for a Bodhisattva as once born there, s/he cannot help sentient beings from ten thousand to eighty thousand kalpas. In that state, the yogi remains in a highly blissful, and formless state which can easily be mistaken for the Non-dual state from anywhere between ten thousand kalpas to upto eighty thousand kalpas.



There are others types of Samatha systems which are conducive to deep Samadhi that take you to the state of super-consciousness, like meditating on the inner sounds called Nada yoga or in the Shanta Parampara of India as Sabad Surati yoga. There are four levels of Samadhi related to nada yoga technically called 1) Vaikhari 2) Madhyama 3) Pasyanti 4) Para. During the process, the person hears various types of sounds like the humming of the bumble bee, the sound of the bell, the sound of the drums, the sound of thunder and the sound of Om (Pranava) and so on. At the Para level, all sounds subside and only the infinite Pure Awareness by itself or super-consciousness remains. Likewise another well-known method is to concentrate on the light/sparks or the like seen in between the eye-brows. This too has various stages similar to different levels of Samadhis etc. until one reaches the infinite light of the mind or Atman as non-buddhists would call it. All of these methods are only varieties of Samatha and, according to Buddhism, these states are neither enlightenment nor do they produce enlightenment by practicing them for a long time. This statement is true of the famous Kundalini yoga methods too; which also ends in the super-conscious state of Pure Awareness by itself which is infinite. That one can experience such an awareness through various methods of Samatha is well-known to Buddhism and is not alien at all to Buddhist literature. However, Buddhism neither regards such a state as enlightenment or liberation nor regards such states or production of such states over and over again for longer and longer periods as productive of enlightenment.

Let me repeat again, that any method that only absorbs the mind on anything belongs to the Samatha type of meditation. And Samatha meditations, no matter how extraordinary or different from other Samatha types, are not enough to attain enlightenment. And in this context, Buddhism is very emphatic that only the types of meditation that probe into the mode of existence of all phenomena (dharmas) to gain insight can cut through the 'Innate Ignorance' (Sahaja Agyan) and thus destroy that Ignorance. And this type of meditation (and there are many techniques here) is called Vipassyana in Sanskrit, Vipassana in Pali, Lhag thong in Tibetan and Kuan in Chinese and Kan in Japanese."
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Re: Kundalini Awakening vs Buddhist Awakening

Postby deepbluehum » Sat Jan 19, 2013 7:32 pm

wisdom wrote:
deepbluehum wrote:Just tooting your own horn then. Thats what i thought. Kundalini Maha Yoga is the source of kundalini teachings. Not a rip off. And My experience is 33 years old. There's always someone with more experience. What kundalini is comes from the guru. From the guru, kundalini is the Parashakti in the human body. It is the quintessential mother energy. Being a mother, she cares for everyone, and is the destiny of everyone to awaken now or later. The lineage gurus can awaken kundalini and no one else. A very different tradition than Buddhist. Of course you are free to say whatever pops into your head and to tout your own experience in the competition for followers, but be forewarned that those with lineage transmissions can see right through the facade of experience and unless you are prepared to demonstrate your lineage, you will expose yourself. Best to keep quiet until you can spend the necessary time with the gurus.


What if your Kundalini has awakened but you have had no conscious contact with any kind of Maha Yoga Guru who could awaken it? What does a person do when this happens, because reportedly it happens all the time to people from all walks of life. Is it really Kundalini which has awakened, or something else?


It can happen due due to past lives or this life associations but without a lineage it won't go well.
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