Emptiness and Depending Origination

Discussion of meditation in the Mahayana and Vajrayana traditions.
Vasana
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Re: Emptiness and Depending Origination

Post by Vasana »

Some key excerpts from the beginning of Ocean of Reasoning, rJe Tsongkhapa's commentary on Nagarjuna’s Mu ̄ lamadhyamakaka ̄rika ̄.
The Commentary, commenting on “peaceful—free from fabrication” says:

When one perceives the way dependent origination really is, there is no engagement of mind or mental processes.

...

Prasannapada ̄ says in this regard:
Since conceptual thought is the wandering of mind, the way things really are, being free from that, is not conceptualized. Su ̄tra says, “What is the ultimate truth? Where there is no wandering of mind there is no need to talk about words.” [Bodhisattvapitaka-su ̄tra, [dKon brtsegs ga ]

...

"Wisdom is the understanding that neither the self nor being-possessed-by-the-self is ultimately existent; and, consequent upon this, that when the aggregates are understood as not truly existent, then self-grasping is extinguished [I: 28–30]. Until the grasping of the aggregates as truly existent is extinguished one does not escape from cyclic existence, but once it is extinguished one escapes"
'When thoughts arise, recognise them clearly as your teacher'— Gampopa
'When alone, examine your mind, when among others, examine your speech'.— Atisha
Vasana
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Re: Emptiness and Depending Origination

Post by Vasana »

I've been finding it really useful recently to contemplate the subtle nuances of dependent origination for say maybe 20-30 minutes (or as long as it takes ) as a method to help quieten the mind.

In various commentaries from Thrangu Rinpoche , he says somewhere that some people gain meditative stability and absorbption by training in shamatha first, then applying vipassana , and that for others, applying vipassana analysis (in it's relative context & meaning) is what can enables proper shamatha to arise. Good shamatha supports vippanassa, good vipaasana supports shamatha. lacking in either, we aren't able to progress.

If you're of the predominately analytical type, contemplating the observation of dependent-origination from the most gross to the most subtlest phenomena can really help quieten the mind during meditation as per the above quotes from Tsongkhapas commentary.

Whatever thoughts ,feelings etc arise during meditation, recognizing that they are *all* dependently arisen and *all *conditioned by a myriad of outer,inner,'secret' conditioned factors, it can become easier to help take our own thoughts less seriously and reduce the innate-grasping of self and objects we always cultivate.

In contemplating dependent origination ,we can see that everything from the voice our mind speaks in, to the linguistic-conceptual-abstractions of words (form-emptiness) and their corresponding mouth-sounds (sound-emptiness) and sense-impressions are all just dependent waves lapping up on the shore of an ocean free from extremes.

virtuous thoughts, non-virtuous thoughts , buddhas, beings ,arising, ceasing , none have any independent footing / self-escence of their own.

Remembering that whatever garbage-grasping my mind produces in mediation has no absolute value or footing and remembering that whatever thoughts or experiences that might arise later in the meditation are all dependent and conditioned , i'm sloowwwly learning to cancel the garbage-collection service everytime i sign back up for it and also to stop praising the treasure-hunter :tongue:
'When thoughts arise, recognise them clearly as your teacher'— Gampopa
'When alone, examine your mind, when among others, examine your speech'.— Atisha
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Karma Dondrup Tashi
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Re: Emptiness and Depending Origination

Post by Karma Dondrup Tashi »

odysseus wrote:There´s not any special meditation methods for Emptiness or Dependent Origination.
Apart from something called vipashyana.
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Karma Dondrup Tashi
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Re: Emptiness and Depending Origination

Post by Karma Dondrup Tashi »

odysseus wrote:"emptiness" is not a meditation object, neither for jhana or vipasanna.
Please stop talking.
odysseus
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Re: Emptiness and Depending Origination

Post by odysseus »

Karma Dondrup Tashi wrote:
odysseus wrote:"emptiness" is not a meditation object, neither for jhana or vipasanna.
Please stop talking.
Hmm. What did I actually say to upset you, friend? :? I might be wrong in my facts sometimes, but I know what I'm doing – I can handle it. :thinking:
Herbie
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Re: Emptiness and Depending Origination

Post by Herbie »

Shadok wrote:I have been doing breathing meditation for a while. Now I would like to also learn other forms of meditations. I have little understanding about Emptiness and Depending Arising. I searched on this forum for more info., but no luck. Does anyone know where can I find more info. on how to meditate on these two? I am practicing on my own and don't belong to any dharma center.

Thanks,
Shadok
Here is a fantastic download ... if you are a friend of analytical meditation you will find plenty of material in this book
http://uma-tibet.org/edu/gomang/gopub_emptinessmws.php
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Karma Dondrup Tashi
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Re: Emptiness and Depending Origination

Post by Karma Dondrup Tashi »

odysseus wrote:
Karma Dondrup Tashi wrote:
odysseus wrote:"emptiness" is not a meditation object, neither for jhana or vipasanna.
Please stop talking.
Hmm. What did I actually say to upset you, friend? :? I might be wrong in my facts sometimes, but I know what I'm doing – I can handle it. :thinking:
Apologies that was snotty.
Caodemarte
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Re: Emptiness and Depending Origination

Post by Caodemarte »

Herbie said:
Here is a fantastic download ... if you are a friend of analytical meditation you will find plenty of material in this book
http://uma-tibet.org/edu/gomang/gopub_emptinessmws.php
Wow. Thanks! :namaste:
odysseus
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Re: Emptiness and Depending Origination

Post by odysseus »

Karma Dondrup Tashi wrote:
odysseus wrote: Hmm. What did I actually say to upset you, friend? :? I might be wrong in my facts sometimes, but I know what I'm doing – I can handle it. :thinking:
Apologies that was snotty.
Thanks, but say where I was wrong so we can carry the discussion onwards and learn from it. :smile:
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Karma Dondrup Tashi
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Re: Emptiness and Depending Origination

Post by Karma Dondrup Tashi »

odysseus wrote:Thanks, but say where I was wrong so we can carry the discussion onwards and learn from it. :smile:
I apologize again for being rude and sanctimonious. Like I know what I'm talking about.

Anyway it's my understanding that shamatha can progress through one pointedness on gross objects of physical form, then breath, then inner image. Then to non elaboration, i.e. free from objects, concepts, complexity, elaborations, etc. I've heard this latter shamatha described by teachers as using emptiness as a support, in the context of Mahayana and Dzogchen (i.e. the second of the four yogas of semde).
odysseus
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Re: Emptiness and Depending Origination

Post by odysseus »

I just said that emptiness and dependent origination are not main objects of meditation, at all. You can ponder over it, but it's the Kasina objects and mindfulness that are meditation objects. Let's not make it more difficult than needed, or else take a long weakly break.
Vasana
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Re: Emptiness and Depending Origination

Post by Vasana »

odysseus wrote:I just said that emptiness and dependent origination are not main objects of meditation, at all.
Are you playing games with semantics at this point? Emptiness and dependent origination are obviously not 'objects', rather modes of perception. You can say they're not objects of meditation in the strictest sense, but that doesn't mean they aren't contemplated and aprehended to ever subtler degrees to enable stabilization and recognition within shamatha and vipassana.
You can ponder over it, but it's the Kasina objects and mindfulness that are meditation objects. Let's not make it more difficult than needed, or else take a long weakly break.
What vehicle of Buddhism are you practicing?

Even in sutra-yana, meditation on emptiness and clear-understanding of dependent origination is what enables one to release any clinging to notions of self which also enables stable dwelling within meditative states.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html -
Paticca-samuppada-vibhanga Sutta: Analysis of Dependent Co-arising

From earlier posts ,
Vasana wrote:Some key excerpts from the beginning of Ocean of Reasoning, rJe Tsongkhapa's commentary on Nagarjuna’s Mu ̄ lamadhyamakaka ̄rika ̄.
The Commentary, commenting on “peaceful—free from fabrication” says:

When one perceives the way dependent origination really is, there is no engagement of mind or mental processes.

...

"Wisdom is the understanding that neither the self nor being-possessed-by-the-self is ultimately existent; and, consequent upon this, that when the aggregates are understood as not truly existent, then self-grasping is extinguished [I: 28–30]. Until the grasping of the aggregates as truly existent is extinguished one does not escape from cyclic existence, but once it is extinguished one escapes"
'When thoughts arise, recognise them clearly as your teacher'— Gampopa
'When alone, examine your mind, when among others, examine your speech'.— Atisha
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