Request for something super specific

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Johnny Dangerous
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Request for something super specific

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Looking for books, accessible non-restricted texts etc. that might cover some detailed methods of examining discursive thought, namely i'm wondering if there are instructions in this category for working with looking at the point where discursive thought "starts" when information from sense organs gets interpreted.
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Paul
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Re: Request for something super specific

Post by Paul »

If you are interested in Dzogchen or Mahamudra books, then there are a lot of unrestricted ones that deal with it. It is a main exercise in discovering the nature of mind.

Try:
Present Fresh Wakefulness by Chokyi Nyima Rinpoche
Bonpo Dzogchen Teachings by Lopon Tenzin Namdak
Any of Tulku Urgyen's books
The Mirror by Nakhai Norbu Rinpoche
Carefree Dignity by Tsoknyi Rinpoche
Clarifying the Natural State by Thrangu Rinpoche - this is especially clear on the matter, such as on page 32 onwards.

I can dig out some specific page number etc. later if this is the kind of thing you want. :reading:
Look at the unfathomable spinelessness of man: all the means he's been given to stay alert he uses, in the end, to ornament his sleep. – Rene Daumal
the modern mind has become so limited and single-visioned that it has lost touch with normal perception - John Michell
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Re: Request for something super specific

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Paul wrote:If you are interested in Dzogchen or Mahamudra books, then there are a lot of unrestricted ones that deal with it. It is a main exercise in discovering the nature of mind.

Try:
Present Fresh Wakefulness by Chokyi Nyima Rinpoche
Bonpo Dzogchen Teachings by Lopon Tenzin Namdak
Any of Tulku Urgyen's books
The Mirror by Nakhai Norbu Rinpoche
Carefree Dignity by Tsoknyi Rinpoche
Clarifying the Natural State by Thrangu Rinpoche - this is especially clear on the matter, such as on page 32 onwards.

I can dig out some specific page number etc. later if this is the kind of thing you want. :reading:
If it's not too much, sure..something i'd really like to refine, so thanks! I'll definitely look into the books.
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Paul
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Re: Request for something super specific

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Okay, I'll look. BTW I think a full exposition of this subject is going to be more common in Mahamudra texts as the techniques of Mahamudra are more gradual and based on meditative analysis when introducing the view.
Look at the unfathomable spinelessness of man: all the means he's been given to stay alert he uses, in the end, to ornament his sleep. – Rene Daumal
the modern mind has become so limited and single-visioned that it has lost touch with normal perception - John Michell
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Re: Request for something super specific

Post by krodha »

Paul wrote:Okay, I'll look. BTW I think a full exposition of this subject is going to be more common in Mahamudra texts as the techniques of Mahamudra are more gradual and based on meditative analysis when introducing the view.
It is also part of khorde rushan practice in Dzogchen, and a full exposition can be found in that context as well.
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Re: Request for something super specific

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That makes sense, I've read a couple of mahamudra books, but not ones that hit this specific issue. I am definitely more used to the gradual approach that starts with Shamatha/vipaysana. Just got a bunch of chnnr books from the library too..I'm sure some of those will be good for this.
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Re: Request for something super specific

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During one meditation our teacher made us count how many thoughts we were having during a two minute period. Not all that difficult if you have a good base in shamatha. Problem is do you also count the thoughts, about counting the thoughts? What about the counting itself? Is that a thought? Ad nauseum...

Anyway, shamatha is the key.

Try the book: "Mahamudra-The Ocean of True Meaning". Takes you from A to Z, but actually requires transmission as a text. It's out there though, so...
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Re: Request for something super specific

Post by Genduen Phuntsok »

Johnny Dangerous wrote:Looking for books, accessible non-restricted texts etc. that might cover some detailed methods of examining discursive thought, namely i'm wondering if there are instructions in this category for working with looking at the point where discursive thought "starts" when information from sense organs gets interpreted.
you maybe have a look on the text from the third karmapa: namshe yeshe ...

jigme rinpoche comments on it here >> http://www.jigmela.org/words/two-faces.htm

the text with a comment by khenchen thrangu rinpoche online here >> http://www.rinpoche.com/teachings/conwisdom.pdf

to go deeper in this text you should get yourself a lung ...

have a wonderful day

jeff
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Re: Request for something super specific

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Sherab Dorje wrote:During one meditation our teacher made us count how many thoughts we were having during a two minute period. Not all that difficult if you have a good base in shamatha. Problem is do you also count the thoughts, about counting the thoughts? What about the counting itself? Is that a thought? Ad nauseum...

Anyway, shamatha is the key.

Try the book: "Mahamudra-The Ocean of True Meaning". Takes you from A to Z, but actually requires transmission as a text. It's out there though, so...

Yeah i've tried something like this but I never know what counts as thoughts, the moment when you "I make" after a sense impression, cognitive noticing of bodily sensation, the act of counting, the river of stuff going on just below conscious thought etc. The more detailed you get, the more there is to count it seems like lol,
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Re: Request for something super specific

Post by Adamantine »

Johnny, this book may be what you're looking for... it breaks these issues down a bit.. but for further clarification of course you should work directly with a teacher.
http://www.amazon.com/Vivid-Awareness-I ... B00BBXJGXW
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Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
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Re: Request for something super specific

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Adamantine wrote:Johnny, this book may be what you're looking for... it breaks these issues down a bit.. but for further clarification of course you should work directly with a teacher.
http://www.amazon.com/Vivid-Awareness-I ... B00BBXJGXW

Yeah of course, this is all supplemental, and I have a practice coming up where I I think I can ask some of these questions to my teacher. I've found though that the combination of his meditation instructions, and reading stuff that's relevant has been a very good one, if nothing else it really serves to help me clarify what questions are worth asking, and how I should phrase them to make sense.
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Paul
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Re: Request for something super specific

Post by Paul »

Okay - here's what I've found of note:

Pages 32 & 43 of Clarifying the Natural State *
Pages 50 & 52 of Self Liberation Through Seeing with Naked Awareness
Page 57 of A Song for the King
Pages 60-62 of Pointing out the Dharmakaya
Pages 179-185 of Mind at Ease
Pages 132-139 of Essential of Mahamudra *
Pages 129, 173 & 175 of Bonpo Dzogchen Teachings

The ones with an asterisk are the ones that seem to most directly deal with this practice. It's a very universal one, though - it's a preliminary for both Dzogchen and Mahamudra.
:reading:
Look at the unfathomable spinelessness of man: all the means he's been given to stay alert he uses, in the end, to ornament his sleep. – Rene Daumal
the modern mind has become so limited and single-visioned that it has lost touch with normal perception - John Michell
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Re: Request for something super specific

Post by Paul »

Adamantine wrote:Johnny, this book may be what you're looking for... it breaks these issues down a bit.. but for further clarification of course you should work directly with a teacher.
http://www.amazon.com/Vivid-Awareness-I ... B00BBXJGXW
This is such an awesome text.
Look at the unfathomable spinelessness of man: all the means he's been given to stay alert he uses, in the end, to ornament his sleep. – Rene Daumal
the modern mind has become so limited and single-visioned that it has lost touch with normal perception - John Michell
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Re: Request for something super specific

Post by Lotus_Bitch »

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Sherab Dorje wrote:During one meditation our teacher made us count how many thoughts we were having during a two minute period. Not all that difficult if you have a good base in shamatha. Problem is do you also count the thoughts, about counting the thoughts? What about the counting itself? Is that a thought? Ad nauseum...

Anyway, shamatha is the key.

Try the book: "Mahamudra-The Ocean of True Meaning". Takes you from A to Z, but actually requires transmission as a text. It's out there though, so...

Yeah i've tried something like this but I never know what counts as thoughts, the moment when you "I make" after a sense impression, cognitive noticing of bodily sensation, the act of counting, the river of stuff going on just below conscious thought etc. The more detailed you get, the more there is to count it seems like lol,
This reminds me of "noting"/Mahasi style vipassana (not the counting per se, but the act of "noting" sense objects, etc.). Is this the method you've experimented with?
Many meditators know how to meditate,
But only a few know how to dismantle [mental clinging].
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Re: Request for something super specific

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Lotus_Bitch wrote:
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Sherab Dorje wrote:During one meditation our teacher made us count how many thoughts we were having during a two minute period. Not all that difficult if you have a good base in shamatha. Problem is do you also count the thoughts, about counting the thoughts? What about the counting itself? Is that a thought? Ad nauseum...

Anyway, shamatha is the key.

Try the book: "Mahamudra-The Ocean of True Meaning". Takes you from A to Z, but actually requires transmission as a text. It's out there though, so...

Yeah i've tried something like this but I never know what counts as thoughts, the moment when you "I make" after a sense impression, cognitive noticing of bodily sensation, the act of counting, the river of stuff going on just below conscious thought etc. The more detailed you get, the more there is to count it seems like lol,
This reminds me of "noting"/Mahasi style vipassana (not the counting per se, but the act of "noting" sense objects, etc.). Is this the method you've experimented with?
Yeah, this is basically how I learned basic shamatha instruction, "notice and return". It reaches a point thought, where it seems like you are able to see more layers of things, and simply noticing gets bewildering, as there is more there than you initially thought..if that makes sense. Seems especially true if you ditch the initial separation between things like somatic experience, moments of consciousness with no apparent object, emotions, thoughts etc.

Thanks Paul (and everyone) i've saved the relevant info for when I get a chance to look at those texts.
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Re: Request for something super specific

Post by Anders »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Yeah i've tried something like this but I never know what counts as thoughts, the moment when you "I make" after a sense impression, cognitive noticing of bodily sensation, the act of counting, the river of stuff going on just below conscious thought etc. The more detailed you get, the more there is to count it seems like lol,
Technically speaking, thinking does not arise in equipose. Even so, it is often explained that 'thoughts arise', because what we think of as being 'thoughts' do appear. But this sort of activity is not actually considering "thinking", although it is mental activity. But really, thoughts as habit energy arising and dispersing is harmless and doesn't even require your attention, unless there is something in need of reaction to.

I prefer to look at it as the difference between 'thinking' and 'thoughts', although that is a homebrew distinction. But basically, it is the difference between habit energy and natural responses appearing as 'thoughts' and these compulsively linking up in a series to create an apparent continuity of thought (and with it, the virtual reality of samsaric life) - 'thinking'.

One trick I'd recommend is to try and deliberately 'think mindfully'. In as relaxed and casual a way as possible, so that it gets as close to ordinary thinking as you can, with a light seasoning of mindfulness. And then see what the difference is between this and ordinary thinking. Basically, examining the line where thoughts flip the switch from 'arising naturally in mindfulness' to 'afflictive arising' and getting to know the quality that makes the difference.
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Re: Request for something super specific

Post by Astus »

As an extension to Anders' post distinguishing wilful thinking and general mental activity, the fourth samadhi in Tiantai/Tendai of neither walking nor sitting talks about the four phases of thought: "That not yet thought is called ‘the mind that has not yet arisen’. The desire to be thought is called ‘the mind that desires to arise’. The thought is called ‘remaining in direct connection with the object’. That already thought is called ‘leaving the connection with the object’."
This is one possible source you can use. The other is the satipatthana (vipassana) method and all the commentaries, as it mentions what mind objects are to be observed and that one should be aware of their rise and fall. A brief look into abhidharma works can also help to inform oneself of what counts as mental dharma, thus no need to make up one's own system. For instance, the Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma can be of some help, especially the discussion of mental processes and impulsions (javana) in chapter 4.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Re: Request for something super specific

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When the mind grasps, it tries to think to understand. So we no longer contrive a thought to understand, what left is more of an ordinary mind or awareness. It's like when we no longer chasing thinking/thoughts (delusion), the mind is at calm state. Like when the waves are stirred, that's when the mind is in motion, and we often get lost in the motion. When we let the waves or motion is settled, the mind or ocean is calm.
It’s eye blinking.
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Re: Request for something super specific

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LastLegend wrote:When the mind grasps, it tries to think to understand. So we no longer contrive a thought to understand, what left is more of an ordinary mind or awareness. It's like when we no longer chasing thinking/thoughts (delusion), the mind is at calm state. Like when the waves are stirred, that's when the mind is in motion, and we often get lost in the motion. When we let the waves or motion is settled, the mind or ocean is calm.

You can be in a calm state, with no discursive thought, and be nowhere near the real nature of mind I think, that's the whole issue. Anyone can do Shamatha for a bit, and experience periods with little or no thought, that is not (by my understanding obviously) really the nature of mind, and at least in the Tibetan traditions they often seem to warn about cultivating shamatha in such a way that you are simply free of thought, experiencing calmness, and leaving it at that.
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Re: Request for something super specific

Post by LastLegend »

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
LastLegend wrote:When the mind grasps, it tries to think to understand. So we no longer contrive a thought to understand, what left is more of an ordinary mind or awareness. It's like when we no longer chasing thinking/thoughts (delusion), the mind is at calm state. Like when the waves are stirred, that's when the mind is in motion, and we often get lost in the motion. When we let the waves or motion is settled, the mind or ocean is calm.

You can be in a calm state, with no discursive thought, and be nowhere near the real nature of mind I think, that's the whole issue. Anyone can do Shamatha for a bit, and experience periods with little or no thought, that is not (by my understanding obviously) really the nature of mind, and at least in the Tibetan traditions they often seem to warn about cultivating shamatha in such a way that you are simply free of thought, experiencing calmness, and leaving it at that.
It's not actively trying not to have thoughts because that itself is another thought. It's letting the mind in its ordinary state and pull it out to the ordinary state when it tries to sink in contriving and becoming lost. This requires awareness. It's more of a negation thing.
It’s eye blinking.
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