Blood clots?

[Cornelius]

Hello,

I'm wanting to meditate more but a concern of mine is blood pooling and encouraging clots.

I imagine even just sitting on a chair for extended periods likely results in blood pooling in the legs, but is sitting in meditation more conducive for pooling and clots?

Seiza is one of the positions I've seen and it doesn't look/sound very comfortable at all. I imagine it's more of a traditional thing, because it certainly doesn't look like a comfort posture lol.

Will just sitting on the floor with my legs crossed be okay? I've been looking at getting one of the larger zafu(?) cushions for comfort.

Thanks!

[Kim O'Hara]

Hi, Cornelius,
Meditation posture is a perennial question. Broadly, what we want is a position which is comfortable for long periods of stillness, doesn't require too much awareness to maintain, and doesn't encourage drowsiness.
Some of the 'traditional' postures are quite uncomfortable, even impossible, for most Westerners. If so, there's no need to use them. Instead, sit nice and tall on a straight chair which has just enough of a cushion for comfort but not enough to affect posture.
If you want to sit cross-legged or in half-lotus on the floor, a cushion will help keep your hips above your knees, which is one key to keeping your spine straight. As for seiza ... http://www.japan-talk.com/jt/new/seiza
https://www.quora.com/Why-do-Japanese-s ... s-possible and
https://nihonjinron.wordpress.com/2013/ ... -in-seiza/ might help.

I've never heard of problems with blood clots (aka DVT) with any of these postures but knee pain is quite a common result of any of the floor seating positions.


Kim

[Cornelius]

Thank you

I just saw a video about posture and common mistakes with misalignments, so I'll work on that, thanks!

[narhwal90]

I prefer seiza for vipasanna and for gongyo/diamoku, though my legs last 30 mins or so then a posture change is needed. Lots of practice improves recovery speed and defers the onset of discomfort. Starting from scratch its a tough position, some use little stools to take weight off the legs.. really helps. The ankles and feet are stressed a bit too and need practice to acommodate. i find chairs distracting so adapting to seiza is part of my practice.

[AlexMcLeod]

Hello,

I'm wanting to meditate more but a concern of mine is blood pooling and encouraging clots.

Then you should stand upright.

[Johnny Dangerous]

If you want to sit seiza and not have it be too bad, just get a meditation bench.

I wouldn't worry about DVT unless you're at risk, but it's often a good idea to break after a certain amount of time and stretch.

[Kaccāni]

If you want to be 100% sure then do lying meditation and take an anti-thrombosis shot per day. Just kidding. It really does not matter which posture you meditate in, as long as you stay awake. The main point is that you manage to create stillness. Effortless stillness. If keeping your posture needs effort, it is probably not good for meditation. If you get too sleepy, that will create even more thoughts. That may be a problem for you, it may be not. Depends on your focus and determination. Many people won't sleep in as long as they're somewhat upright. If that's true for you, any comfortable seat will do, and you can raise your legs as you see fit, e.g. sitting con a comfy armchair with leg support.

Just get that mind of yours to calm down. Or ask youself: What do I even want to achieve with that meditation?

[tomschwarz]

)))) Seiza? Is that for Karate? In Buddhism, I think all types of Buddhism, there is a miraculous meditation position. It is miraculous because it does things that are hard to explain. I have lived in this human life for 48 years. I have practiced Buddhism for 33 years. In those 33 years I have found no other position (or action, see walking meditation etc...) that is anything like the position described by kamalashila middling stages of meditation. Something like:
* Sit cross legged half lotus or full lotus. Right leg on top. ...(same for women? forgot....)
* Back straight as an arrow
* eyes half closed looking at a point on the floor a body length away
* hands gently rest on the knees
* mouth slightly open (little fuzzy here, but something like teeth gently together, toungue on roof of mouth)

And as his holiness the Dalai Lama has said, if over the course of 15 minutes, you have half of that time without conceptual thoughts, you have made great progress ))))). If I had to say why, or how this works, I would have to say something like physical analogies... ...in Buddhism, we focus on the 6 perfections. Generosity, and openness that is behind generosity, is felt with the hips turned out from the half or full lotus. Of course, the straight back is discipline. The motionlessness and shallow breathing are a good practice area for patience. The whole thing works for moral strength and humility/sameness/egolessness/etc....

[tomschwarz]

ah, here is the great master kamalashila's words:

Then, he should sit in the full lotus posture of Vairocana, or the half lotus posture, on a comfortable cushion.
The eyes should not be too widely opened or too tightly closed. Let them focus on the tip of the nose. The
body should not be bent forward or backward. Keep it straight and turn the attention inwards. The shoulders
should rest in their natural position and the head should not lean back, forward, or to either side. The nose
should be in line with the navel. The teeth and lips should rest in their natural state with the tongue touching
the upper palate. Breathe very gently and softly without causing any noise, without labouring, and without
unevenness. Inhale and exhale naturally, slowly, and unnoticeably.

One thing about the stress of meditation, such has developing a blood clot, if you die practicing meditation, of course, it is not necessarily ideal. But all things considered, not the worst way to go and also could be worth the risk. But those are serious questions that you have to answer for yourself. I was advised to be willing to die in my practice of Buddhism (ethics, mediation and wisdom). And I buy into that 100% because, I believe that the lion share of my good physical health is a direct result of Buddhist practice. And my sickness and poor health is a result of poor practice of Buddhism, that is my perspective.

[Johnny Dangerous]

)))) Seiza? Is that for Karate? In Buddhism

Is it neccessary to communicate like this?

No, some Zen traditions people sit Seiza in Zazen too..but yes, it's used in martial arts.

[tomschwarz]

dear Johnny dangerous I understand your idea, and you could be right that my communication is not human or condescending etc... the most important thing as I understand it, is caring for each other, for our happiness. and I assure you that is my intention 100%. I know you practiced martial arts and so i made that comment because I believe that you will be happier letting go of that identity (along with all other identities/self). my greater intention is to get you to question any belief (not withstanding love itself) in this versus that. I truly am not a great master. but I do have some accomplishment and I think we have had similar lives (i was also a musician). so I am trying to be as sensitive and skillful as I can to say exactly what I hope will bring the maximum benefit to you. and that is the intention behind everything I write here.

[Johnny Dangerous]

dear Johnny dangerous I understand your idea, and you could be right that my communication is not human or condescending etc... the most important thing as I understand it, is caring for each other, for our happiness. and I assure you that is my intention 100%. I know you practiced martial arts and so i made that comment because I believe that you will be happier letting go of that identity (along with all other identities/self). my greater intention is to get you to question any belief (not withstanding love itself) in this versus that. I truly am not a great master. but I do have some accomplishment and I think we have had similar lives (i was also a musician). so I am trying to be as sensitive and skillful as I can to say exactly what I hope will bring the maximum benefit to you. and that is the intention behind everything I write here.

This is a thread where someone is asking about proper sitting, where Seiza was specifically mentioned. It's cool that you think we've had similar lives, and that you are trying to 'reach out' somehow, but not only is this not the place, but you do not actually know me..maybe it's worth examining whether this really *is* the skillful approach you are going for? If you want to get to know me then give advice, go for it..I'm friendlier than I seem:)

I appreciate that you've paid attention to what my life is like, that's actually very kind and more than what many people would do, this seems like an odd place for it though, and maybe a bit of a jump on your part in assuming you are in a position to be advising me, especially when my advice on sitting was 100% generic, non-controversial, and quite simple advice that would be common knowledge to anyone who has practiced Zen, or any martial arts that involves Seiza. It's not about clinging to an identity, but simply advising someone about seiza, because I've practiced that way.

ON the OP:

I tried sitting in a chair while I had a knee injury, and it was actually worse on my back somehow than five point posture. I have a messed up back and (now) a jacked up knee that makes seiza impossible. I use the standard five-point posture..which requires more back strength IME than seiza does, it takes a period of time just practicing the posture to be able to relax into it, once it becomes more natural it has no problems, I get why it's said to be the ideal posture. Seiza (without a bench) is harder on the knees but very easy on the back, IME. With a bench it is the easiest meditation posture I have experienced. For me, easy wasn't the best though, I got the best results from getting used to the give point posture, but I imagine everyone's results vary.

IMO the important thing is not to make your body do marathon sessions if you cannot handle them, and to stretch every 20 minutes max if you are doing longer sessions. All just my own experience of course.

[saaremaa]

...as a medical doctor with about 30 years of regular meditation experience, I have developed some ideas about this.

First of all, temporary "clotting" of blood is not such an uncommon thing in the human physiology, and the body can deal with that through the stasis of coagulation and thrombolysis. E.g. when one keeps one's arm in an uncomfortable position, clots can be generated which simply are resolved as soon as normal circulation is back. We even tested that on ourselves during our studies.

Regarding the potentially unwanted effects of a sitting position, I have come to the conclusion that one should calculate the wanted against the unwanted effects, including body energies, breath, mind/spirit and physical body. I am willing to accept some minor long term effects, which you can partially counteract by other exercises like yoga or similar, but try to avoid the extreme positions, for which the western body is not suitable from my point of view. Also, you can counteract by drinking enough clear water, and I even do take 300 mgs of Aspirin before an extensive meditation session.

I wish you a successful sitting practice : )