Israel, Palestine, Antisemitism

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Israel, Palestine, Antisemitism

Postby ovi » Thu Apr 03, 2014 11:24 am

Kudos to Scotland, this should apply to the whole of the EU.
rory wrote:I do hope for them to reach a peaceful settlement. War does nobody any good. But no their situation isn't remotely like mine. Do tell me where I as a gay Jewish woman I would be treated equally under the law in a Muslim country.

And this is in no way an excuse to oppress Palestinians.
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Re: Scotland becomes 17th country to approve same-sex marria

Postby rory » Fri Apr 04, 2014 2:13 am

rory wrote:I do hope for them to reach a peaceful settlement. War does nobody any good. But no their situation isn't remotely like mine. Do tell me where I as a gay Jewish woman I would be treated equally under the law in a Muslim country.

And this is in no way an excuse to oppress Palestinians.[/quote]

Please tell me where Palestinians are oppressed? In Egypt, in Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Malaysia, the US, Britain, China? Gaza- oh yes. West Bank - yes. The Palestinians chose to resist the peaceful 2 state division by the UN in 1945. Losers loose, the Ukraine just lost the Crimea. It's part of life.

Meanwhile Israel is democratic, women are treated equally under the law, Christians, Druze, Muslims, atheists have equal protection and religious freedom, gay people have some rights, their economy is better than France's....the rest of the Middle East should be in such good stable prosperous shape.

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Re: Scotland becomes 17th country to approve same-sex marria

Postby rory » Fri Apr 04, 2014 2:17 am

Rory: I do hope for them to reach a peaceful settlement. War does nobody any good. But no their situation isn't remotely like mine. Do tell me where I as a gay Jewish woman I would be treated equally under the law in a Muslim country.

Ovi:
And this is in no way an excuse to oppress Palestinians.


Please tell me where Palestinians are oppressed? In Egypt, in Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Malaysia, the US, Britain, China? Gaza- oh yes. West Bank - yes. The Palestinians chose to resist the peaceful 2 state division by the UN in 1945. Losers loose, the Ukraine just lost the Crimea. It's part of life.

Meanwhile Israel is democratic, women are treated equally under the law, Christians, Druze, Muslims, atheists have equal protection and religious freedom, gay people have some rights, their economy is better than France's....the rest of the Middle East should try this.

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Re: Scotland becomes 17th country to approve same-sex marria

Postby ovi » Sat Apr 05, 2014 2:23 pm

rory wrote:Meanwhile Israel is democratic, women are treated equally under the law, Christians, Druze, Muslims, atheists have equal protection and religious freedom, gay people have some rights, their economy is better than France's....the rest of the Middle East should try this.

Indeed, the Middle East should treat Christians, atheists and gay people equally. But not the Jews. I had no clue to the extent of discrimination against Arabs in Israel, until a now very good friend of mine left the country, after serving the mandatory term in the Israeli army, became a staunch anti-zionist, renounced Israeli citizenship and starting educating people against all kinds of discrimination and nationalism. The only thing as terrible as being an Arab in Israel is being forced to kill innocent people for the greed of others. Might makes right is a terrible substitute for morality.
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Re: Scotland becomes 17th country to approve same-sex marria

Postby rory » Fri Apr 11, 2014 8:29 pm

Ovi:
Indeed, the Middle East should treat Christians, atheists and gay people equally. But not the Jews.
]

and the anti-semitism above is the reason why secular Jews such as myself have to support Israel...ugh.

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Re: Scotland becomes 17th country to approve same-sex marria

Postby Johnny Dangerous » Fri Apr 11, 2014 8:59 pm

rory wrote:Ovi:
Indeed, the Middle East should treat Christians, atheists and gay people equally. But not the Jews.
]

and the anti-semitism above is the reason why secular Jews such as myself have to support Israel...ugh.

Rory



Disagreeing with the actions of the state of Israel, and disagreeing with Zionism, is not anti-semitism, as much as some supporters of Zionist political positions would like to equate the two. I assume this is what Ovi meant by his statement, but I could be wrong.

Nor does disagreement with these things mean support of oppression of women etc. in Muslim societies, another bit of distraction that people like to trow out in such situations. Disagreement, even disgust with the way a given culture functions doesn't mean it's ok to do what you want to them militarily...though of course, this is also the typical (imperialist) argument for America trotting around the world setting up it's client states etc...all about justice and democracy, forcibly civilizing the savages... supposedly. It's really just the modern version of manifest destiny, IMO.

There certainly are racists who are (by definition) anti-Zionist, as one can find racists and bigots who follow an number of positions that are convenient for them. However, there are also plenty of people (including some Jews, within and without Israel, who often get accused of 'self hatred") who question it. So I reject the equivalency you are making between criticism of Israel and antisemitism.

I think the reason that many American Jews support Israel as uncritically, and unequivocally as they often do is the successful marketing efforts of the Israeli government to tie sympathy and religious feeling to what amounts to a mostly political project - and one which arguably flies in the face of the Jewish value of Tikkun Olam in many ways. This is evidenced by the fact hat most won't even argue in favor of Zionism with any argument other than 1) vilifying the "other side", I guess to imply that settlement and occupation is justified by things like the poor position of women in Muslim societies, or 2) equating any criticism of Israel with antisemitism. You can look within parts of the Jewish community in this country and find a certain degree of nationalism, xenophobia, and othering as you would in any other self-segregating community - I can tell you that as someone in an intermarriage.



P.S.:

Before it gets thrown out at me - i'm married to an observant Jew (who wouldn't necessarily agree with me on some of these things), so don't go there. Antisemitism is certainly real, but it requires actual antisemitism, it shouldn't be trotted out every time you don't like someone's political opinions, IMO.
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Re: Israel, Palestine, Antisemitism

Postby Konchog1 » Fri Apr 11, 2014 10:44 pm

Then there's this pov: http://nkusa.org
Equanimity is the ground. Love is the moisture. Compassion is the seed. Bodhicitta is the result.

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Without attachment, self-liberating, like a snake in a knot.
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Re: Israel, Palestine, Antisemitism

Postby Johnny Dangerous » Fri Apr 11, 2014 10:58 pm

These guys are a pretty small minority I think.

In general, from what i've seen...even "liberal" synagogues (whatever that means really) will eventually publish statements of basically uncritical support for the Israeli side of whatever dispute, even if a good chunk of the congregation has differing or more nuanced views. no one wants "self hating Jew" thrown at them for having an unpopular opinion.

There was a controversy in my town over a BDS -based boycott of Israeli goods at the co op..the board of which was made up of many Jews, i.e. many Jews voted for the boycott. After a lawsuit from the pro-Israel lobby and related groups as an attempt to shut down speech (which thankfully got junked I believe), the other side still doesn't hesitate to question the Jewishness of Jews who won't uncritically support nearly anything Israel does, in fact it seems to be their main argument I see against the boycott - that by definition a boycott of Israeli goods is Antisemitic. I was on the fence about the whole boycott issue at first, but after talking to the Jews I know through my wife (who btw I can unreservedly say are great people, I just think they are wrong here), and seeing the general reaction from the community..I definitely feel it is nearly impossible to have areal conversation about this stuff in America. The BDS people at least would explain their position in a logical way, the anti-boycott side (that I saw at least) never would, they would just immediately claim some form of discrimination without ever really explaining why. That is BTW, not to say I support BDS really..I have read some good criticism of the movement..just that the people locally did a much better job of presenting their arguments from my perspective.

I''ll be the first to acknowledge that there are huge grey areas to this whole issue, I am not some hardcore person with Middle East issues, so what i'm saying is not to point out that I think there aren't points on both sides of the debate...there are for sure. I just think the Antisemitism card gets played in a cheap way in this debate quite often.
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Re: Israel, Palestine, Antisemitism

Postby Konchog1 » Fri Apr 11, 2014 11:24 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:These guys are a pretty small minority I think.

In general, from what i've seen...even "liberal" synagogues (whatever that means really) will eventually publish statements of basically uncritical support for the Israeli side of whatever dispute, even if a good chunk of the congregation has differing or more nuanced views. no one wants "self hating Jew" thrown at them for having an unpopular opinion.

There was a controversy in my town over a BDS -based boycott of Israeli goods at the co op..the board of which was made up of many Jews, i.e. many Jews voted for the boycott. After a lawsuit from the pro-Israel lobby and related groups as an attempt to shut down speech (which thankfully got junked I believe), the other side still doesn't hesitate to question the Jewishness of Jews who won't uncritically support nearly anything Israel does, in fact it seems to be their main argument I see against the boycott - that by definition a boycott of Israeli goods is Antisemitic.
So then is the Zionists who are the minority. They are merely are the loudest and most aggressive.
Equanimity is the ground. Love is the moisture. Compassion is the seed. Bodhicitta is the result.

-Paraphrase of Khensur Rinpoche Lobsang Tsephel citing the Guhyasamaja Tantra

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Without attachment, self-liberating, like a snake in a knot.
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Re: Israel, Palestine, Antisemitism

Postby Johnny Dangerous » Fri Apr 11, 2014 11:27 pm

Konchog1 wrote:
Johnny Dangerous wrote:These guys are a pretty small minority I think.

In general, from what i've seen...even "liberal" synagogues (whatever that means really) will eventually publish statements of basically uncritical support for the Israeli side of whatever dispute, even if a good chunk of the congregation has differing or more nuanced views. no one wants "self hating Jew" thrown at them for having an unpopular opinion.

There was a controversy in my town over a BDS -based boycott of Israeli goods at the co op..the board of which was made up of many Jews, i.e. many Jews voted for the boycott. After a lawsuit from the pro-Israel lobby and related groups as an attempt to shut down speech (which thankfully got junked I believe), the other side still doesn't hesitate to question the Jewishness of Jews who won't uncritically support nearly anything Israel does, in fact it seems to be their main argument I see against the boycott - that by definition a boycott of Israeli goods is Antisemitic.
So then is the Zionists who are the minority. They are merely are the loudest and most aggressive.




I don't know about that, if you read about the general attitude of the Israeli public (and American Jews who will generally agree), it's pretty uniformly pro-Israel with no concessions whatsoever if I remember correctly..although some feel iffy about West Bank settlements and the like.

They might actually be a minority in my town, but I live in a super-lefty land, and where I live is in no way a reasonable sampling of the rest of the country, lol.
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Re: Israel, Palestine, Antisemitism

Postby rory » Sat Apr 12, 2014 1:40 am

Saying that everyone except Jews should be treated equally under the law in the Middle East is anti-semitic. Flat out. I can only say if you don't think so it's because you're not the Jew. There is a giant double standard, no one really gives a damn about the Arab refugees in Syria, or those in refugee camps in Bangladesh (they fought for West Pakistan) but the Palestinians, yeah.. .it's just another disguised form of anti-semitism, which Europe and now intellectuals in the US have taken up so that
you can see about 1/3 of French Jews are emigrating to Israel. Oh the irony....

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Re: Israel, Palestine, Antisemitism

Postby Johnny Dangerous » Sat Apr 12, 2014 5:12 am

rory wrote:Saying that everyone except Jews should be treated equally under the law in the Middle East is anti-semitic. Flat out. I can only say if you don't think so it's because you're not the Jew. There is a giant double standard, no one really gives a damn about the Arab refugees in Syria, or those in refugee camps in Bangladesh (they fought for West Pakistan) but the Palestinians, yeah.. .it's just another disguised form of anti-semitism, which Europe and now intellectuals in the US have taken up so that
you can see about 1/3 of French Jews are emigrating to Israel. Oh the irony....

gassho
Rory



I took his comments to mean he was saying that Israel doesn't follow it's own request to "treat everyone the same", and is not as democratic as it makes itself out to be in many ways. I agree with him.

It's possible i'm wrong, but I believe you took his comments as meaning something they didn't. Maybe Ovi can clarify what he meant.

I can only say if you don't think so it's because you're not the Jew.


Yeah, i've heard this a million times, it's as unconvincing now as it ever was. I admit it was a confusingly worded statement, but again I think there's a possibility you simply read it wrong. You don't have a special power to know what he meant any more than I do - Ovi, please clarify your statement if you read the thread again! If you are actually correct, and he meant that Jews should be treated differently than everyone else...then i'd agree most certainly it's antisemitic.

.it's just another disguised form of anti-semitism, which Europe and now intellectuals in the US have taken up so that
you can see about 1/3 of French Jews are emigrating to Israel. Oh the irony....


Of course people emigrate to Israel, and of course actual antisemitism (as opposed to opposition or questioning of Israeli policy, you are again trying to make the two synonymous when they are not) is quite real..however, there are plenty who emigrate due to reasons other than antisemitism. This again, has nothing to do with whether or not Israel does reprehensible things with it's military, nor whether or not settlers have a right to be in the West Bank, whether Israel operates in an imperialistic manner, etc.
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Re: Israel, Palestine, Antisemitism

Postby Nemo » Sat Apr 12, 2014 5:56 am

The BDS movement is working very well against Israel. Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions. You can't keep Palestinians in prison camps forever. The land was stolen from them. The Jews left in AD 70, you can't simply come back 1900 years later and pretend it is still yours. That would be like the Native Americans coming to my descendants 1700 years from now and kicking them off their land. You would think after WWII they would have some empathy. Instead they are paranoid about their own extinction and have lost all moral constraints. Ironically this is what will destroy them.

The state department says there are 5.3 million Palestinians in Israel and the Occupied Territories. There are only 5.2 million Jews in Israel. So much for the pretense of Democracy. It is an Apartheid system.
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Re: Israel, Palestine, Antisemitism

Postby greentara » Sat Apr 12, 2014 6:32 am

The middle east problem is a complex one. The Arab Spring did not amount to much and seemed to fizzle out. The last time I looked the Coptic community in Egypt was discriminated against and having a hard time of it. Its odd that the Muslim community does not criticize the slaughter of fellows in market places and mosques but uses Israel as a scapegoat for all grievances.
Yes Israel is the only real 'democracy' in the region but it has to cease the expansion of settlements, it's grossly unfair and has to stop!
Its understood that some are very strong advocates of IP and gay rights. As I see it the timing of awakening has more to do with our ability to let go of a view....very strong identity and fixed 'lifestyle' concerns seems to be counterproductive when it comes to spirituality and Buddhism in particular.
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Re: Israel, Palestine, Antisemitism

Postby untxi » Sat Apr 12, 2014 1:53 pm

What really helps is knowing people from all sides of these conflicts. I've known Israeli Jews, including Israelis who served in the army. I've also known Palestinian muslims who have come to this country right out of the refugee camps in Gaza. I've also known Lebanese Christians and Muslims. You end up taking everyone's side. I staunchly defend the Palestinian right to independence and consider their occupation genocide. I staunchly defend the Israeli right to protect themselves from terror. In the end everyone just wants to work, worry for their children, and die in peace.
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Re: Israel, Palestine, Antisemitism

Postby rory » Sun Apr 13, 2014 8:14 pm

I love Nemo "the Jews left in A.D. 70" like it was a stroll, the Judaeans (and historically use this term) were defeated by the Romans and a large part of the population enslaved. And yes there was a diaspora.
Actually Judaeans were equal citizens under the law during the Roman Empire until Constantine I the first Christian emperor came to the throne. Here is a nice paragraph from Fordham University in NY (Jesuit Institution)

The real significance of Roman law for the Jew and his history is that it exerted a profound influence on subsequent Christian and even Muslim legislation. The second-class status of citizenship of the Jew, as crystallized in the Justinian code, was thus entrenched in the medieval world, and under the influence of the Church the disabilities imposed upon him received religious sanction and relegated him even to lower levels.


So basically for about 2,000 years we've been second class citizens, subject to pogroms (the Crusades), not allowed to own land, stuck in the first Ghetto (that's in Venice) hated, despised, (read the Merchant of Venice). I'm sure we have tons of self-hatred. It was only Napoleon who gave the French Jews equal rights. In the 19the century we find educated secular jews feeling that they will never be accepted as normal and so we have the start of Zionism. Theodore Herzl started it and George Eliot the novel writes about it in her novel "Daniel Deronda." The point is zionism is a reaction to a millenia of discrimination by Christians.

So if Christians in the 19th century hadn't whipped up the "Protocols of Zion" (fantasy where Jews are taking over the world) and spread it all over East Europe and Ottoman Empire, there would be no fecking Israel. It wouldn't be necessary.

Now i don't want your sympathy, because at bottom, the lesson of the Holocaust is; that the Jew is on his own.
Now of course the Holocaust was a long time ago (60 years) & the past. But my father's family was wiped out. They were naive/stupid and stayed in Austria, a very very civilized European state. So I have a pretty good lesson and most Jewish people understand that lesson.

Now as to the Palestinians, sure I want a 2 state solution, peace, with a Jewish state and a Palestinian state. But I won't yield on the Jewish state, because my existential question is: where will I go when I am persecuted? Muslim countries don't give Jews equal rights. Hungary and Russia are now hosting anti-semitic movements. 1/3 of the French Jews are emigrating. It's a very real problem...

And being Jewish I see the double standard here; somehow it's okay for Bangladesh, Pakistan, South Sudan, Turkish Cyprus and Russian Crimea to exist but not Israel.

As for Palestine, Hamas is ruining Gaza, but that was a democratic vote...I think it will be like Northern Ireland and one day everyone will give up hating, sick and tired of fighting and make a sensible deal.
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Re: Israel, Palestine, Antisemitism

Postby Dan74 » Mon Apr 14, 2014 3:10 am

rory wrote:I love Nemo "the Jews left in A.D. 70" like it was a stroll, the Judaeans (and historically use this term) were defeated by the Romans and a large part of the population enslaved. And yes there was a diaspora.
Actually Judaeans were equal citizens under the law during the Roman Empire until Constantine I the first Christian emperor came to the throne. Here is a nice paragraph from Fordham University in NY (Jesuit Institution)

The real significance of Roman law for the Jew and his history is that it exerted a profound influence on subsequent Christian and even Muslim legislation. The second-class status of citizenship of the Jew, as crystallized in the Justinian code, was thus entrenched in the medieval world, and under the influence of the Church the disabilities imposed upon him received religious sanction and relegated him even to lower levels.


So basically for about 2,000 years we've been second class citizens, subject to pogroms (the Crusades), not allowed to own land, stuck in the first Ghetto (that's in Venice) hated, despised, (read the Merchant of Venice). I'm sure we have tons of self-hatred. It was only Napoleon who gave the French Jews equal rights. In the 19the century we find educated secular jews feeling that they will never be accepted as normal and so we have the start of Zionism. Theodore Herzl started it and George Eliot the novel writes about it in her novel "Daniel Deronda." The point is zionism is a reaction to a millenia of discrimination by Christians.

So if Christians in the 19th century hadn't whipped up the "Protocols of Zion" (fantasy where Jews are taking over the world) and spread it all over East Europe and Ottoman Empire, there would be no fecking Israel. It wouldn't be necessary.

Now i don't want your sympathy, because at bottom, the lesson of the Holocaust is; that the Jew is on his own.
Now of course the Holocaust was a long time ago (60 years) & the past. But my father's family was wiped out. They were naive/stupid and stayed in Austria, a very very civilized European state. So I have a pretty good lesson and most Jewish people understand that lesson.

Now as to the Palestinians, sure I want a 2 state solution, peace, with a Jewish state and a Palestinian state. But I won't yield on the Jewish state, because my existential question is: where will I go when I am persecuted? Muslim countries don't give Jews equal rights. Hungary and Russia are now hosting anti-semitic movements. 1/3 of the French Jews are emigrating. It's a very real problem...

And being Jewish I see the double standard here; somehow it's okay for Bangladesh, Pakistan, South Sudan, Turkish Cyprus and Russian Crimea to exist but not Israel.

As for Palestine, Hamas is ruining Gaza, but that was a democratic vote...I think it will be like Northern Ireland and one day everyone will give up hating, sick and tired of fighting and make a sensible deal.
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A good rant, rory!

That said, these debates tend to bring out rancour and nastiness, I hope it doesn't happen this time. Everybody deserves to be treated with respect and dignity, I think we can all agree on that. And I think we can all agree on the need for a just settlement of the Israeli-Palestnian issue. Casting aspersions and point-scoring is surely not going to help heal wounds and build bridges. There is an argument that's been made that the US should stop unconditional support for Israel and exert some real pressure on both sides. There's also an argument made that on all sides there are powerful interests who actively resist a settlement. It is a thorny issue for sure...
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Re: Israel, Palestine, Antisemitism

Postby rory » Mon Apr 14, 2014 8:07 am

Dan, I wish to goodness there were clear cut ways to peace. Here read this article, dated 4 days ago, in Al Bawaba an online magazine published in Jordan:
http://www.albawaba.com/news/middle-eas ... ael-567586

This week I wrote a piece for Index on Censorship about hundreds of horrific anti-Semitic tweets directed at Ben Judah, a Fellow on the European Council of Foreign Relations, writer and expert on Russian affairs. He is the author of Putin's Fragile Empire: How Russia Fell in and Out of Love with Putin. The tweets all originated in Egypt, where one in four Arabs currently reside. Judah has never travelled to nor written about Egypt.


I don't see a happy outcome anytime soon.

The US spent tons of money in Iraq, sent troops to Afghanistan, supported Arab Spring movements, especially Egypt (who get tons of aid). Do you see any stability, strong economies, democratic institutions in any Middle Eastern nation ? Look at the Copts in Egypt and the Christians in Iraq, the Israeli Christian Arabs are scared and now sighing up to fight in the IDF. Sadly right now if 2 states were created I'd expect Palestine to be a morass of misery like Gaza.
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Re: Israel, Palestine, Antisemitism

Postby Dan74 » Mon Apr 14, 2014 11:14 am

That there is so much anti-semitism in the Middle East is hardly surprising I think. For a certain kind of a psyche it doesn't take much to form a prejudice and even hatred. So horrific and tragic images from the Palestinian territories broadcast over decades will more than suffice. Of course, there are also such images and worse coming from Syria, but fratricidal feuds aren't quite as potent as an external enemy. Plus, illegitimate rulers and despots are always very keen to stoke hatreds of an external enemy. More importantly I'm wondering what do the major powers both in the region and globally stand to gain from the continuation of the conflict and what do they stand to gain by its resolution? If the benefits of the latter significatly outweighed the former, I am guessing that it would've been resolved by now.

What do you think?
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Re: Israel, Palestine, Antisemitism

Postby ovi » Sun May 04, 2014 10:49 am

rory wrote:Saying that everyone except Jews should be treated equally under the law in the Middle East is anti-semitic. Flat out. I can only say if you don't think so it's because you're not the Jew. There is a giant double standard, no one really gives a damn about the Arab refugees in Syria, or those in refugee camps in Bangladesh (they fought for West Pakistan) but the Palestinians, yeah.. .it's just another disguised form of anti-semitism, which Europe and now intellectuals in the US have taken up so that
you can see about 1/3 of French Jews are emigrating to Israel. Oh the irony....

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Rory

I'm sorry, I thought the sarcasm was way to obvious...In my view and that of many others, any consistently anti-racist is an anti-zionist. Jews, Palestinians and everybody else on this planet should live together in harmony.

rory wrote:I love Nemo "the Jews left in A.D. 70" like it was a stroll, the Judaeans (and historically use this term) were defeated by the Romans and a large part of the population enslaved. And yes there was a diaspora.
Actually Judaeans were equal citizens under the law during the Roman Empire until Constantine I the first Christian emperor came to the throne. Here is a nice paragraph from Fordham University in NY (Jesuit Institution)

So basically for about 2,000 years we've been second class citizens, subject to pogroms (the Crusades), not allowed to own land, stuck in the first Ghetto (that's in Venice) hated, despised, (read the Merchant of Venice). I'm sure we have tons of self-hatred. It was only Napoleon who gave the French Jews equal rights. In the 19the century we find educated secular jews feeling that they will never be accepted as normal and so we have the start of Zionism. Theodore Herzl started it and George Eliot the novel writes about it in her novel "Daniel Deronda." The point is zionism is a reaction to a millenia of discrimination by Christians.

Welcome to the real world! Not that long ago, most people were serfs or slaves, claiming the Sun doesn't revolve against the Earth would have brought you torture and death, but that still doesn't give anyone the right to oppress others today. Jews weren't the only oppressed people. Plus, if Jews were to have outnumbered the Christians, it would have likely been the other way around. The answer to intolerance isn't more intolerance. The only reason you excuse such behavior is because of your nationalism. You identify with certain people as if this represents something real and tangible. Nationalism blinds you from seeing unity in all of mankind and thus it will never bring about lasting peace.
rory wrote:Now i don't want your sympathy, because at bottom, the lesson of the Holocaust is; that the Jew is on his own.
Now of course the Holocaust was a long time ago (60 years) & the past. But my father's family was wiped out. They were naive/stupid and stayed in Austria, a very very civilized European state. So I have a pretty good lesson and most Jewish people understand that lesson.

As an anarchist who wishes for freedom and equality of all people, I would have had it even worse. I would have been sent to concentration camps in Nazi Germany, imprisoned in the US, shot by both the white and red armies in Russia, persecuted by the Soviet Union and the former Stalinist regime of my own country, tortured to death in Franco's Spain or in Greece during the seven years and still risk being imprisoned today for undermining the state authority whenever I participate in peaceful demonstrations against fascism, nationalism, racism, homophobia, environmental destruction, capitalism or organize with others for more effective unions and direct democracy. If there's anyone I have qualms with it is the powerful at the top of the hierarchy who turn people against each other and keep them complacent under the ideas of nationalism and finding happiness in greed, only to maintain and further the status quo.
rory wrote:Now as to the Palestinians, sure I want a 2 state solution, peace, with a Jewish state and a Palestinian state. But I won't yield on the Jewish state, because my existential question is: where will I go when I am persecuted? Muslim countries don't give Jews equal rights. Hungary and Russia are now hosting anti-semitic movements. 1/3 of the French Jews are emigrating. It's a very real problem...

Why two theocratic states (e.g. with second-class citizens in both) instead of a single secular one? Nation-states will hopefully become a thing of the past. You know, nationalism is an invention less than 300 years old with the sole goal of dividing people and brainwashing them to unconditionally support their state. Jews wishing for equal rights for everyone being labeled as self-hating isn't even worth commenting. In fact, saying that to be a real Jew one must support the persecution of certain non-Jews seems quite anti-semitic.
Last edited by ovi on Sun May 04, 2014 11:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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