Israel, Palestine, Antisemitism

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Re: Israel, Palestine, Antisemitism

Postby tobes » Fri May 16, 2014 12:42 am

theanarchist wrote:
tobes wrote:[b]In every country and down the ages, the Jew has turned to commerce and has worked with money



Because in Europe they were not allowed to own land or work as an artisan. They had the international connection to other jewish communities and were mostly literate, so international trade was a reasonable option to make a living. A lot of jews were very poor though.


If you're going to try and defend it, please defend the whole quote.

Do you not see the distinction between:

a/ Some people who have been involved with commerce and worked with money have been culturally, ethnically and religiously Jewish

and

b/ The Jewish race is materialistic in nature and Jews can be liked even though they practice devious and undesirable business methods.

I mean seriously, how can you can defend such a claim without resorting to the most base, crass and pernicious of racial stereotyping?

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Re: Israel, Palestine, Antisemitism

Postby M.G. » Fri May 16, 2014 12:56 am

tobes wrote:
theanarchist wrote:
tobes wrote:[b]In every country and down the ages, the Jew has turned to commerce and has worked with money



Because in Europe they were not allowed to own land or work as an artisan. They had the international connection to other jewish communities and were mostly literate, so international trade was a reasonable option to make a living. A lot of jews were very poor though.


If you're going to try and defend it, please defend the whole quote.

Do you not see the distinction between:

a/ Some people who have been involved with commerce and worked with money have been culturally, ethnically and religiously Jewish

and

b/ The Jewish race is materialistic in nature and Jews can be liked even though they practice devious and undesirable business methods.

I mean seriously, how can you can defend such a claim without resorting to the most base, crass and pernicious of racial stereotyping?

:anjali:



I opined that the two essays were new age mythology. I don't agree with them, obviously. I think they come out of a time where levels of ethnic and racial stereotyping that would seem today shocking were accepted as normal. That doesn't mean they aren't bigoted - they are - but they probably weren't intended maliciously.

We definitely need to be careful of which mythology we internalize, though!
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Re: Israel, Palestine, Antisemitism

Postby tobes » Fri May 16, 2014 1:05 am

You're right that these are very influential ideas in the construction of a new age mythology - the two articles come from texts by Alice Bailey, a post-theosophical writer who in fact coined the term 'new age.'

Beyond the pernicious character of the racial stereotyping, an excellent account of such myth construction can be found here:

http://books.google.com.au/books/about/ ... edir_esc=y

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Re: Israel, Palestine, Antisemitism

Postby Dan74 » Fri May 16, 2014 3:00 am

tobes wrote:
KonchokZoepa wrote:thanks Rory for ur suggestion.

well, M.G i was too lazy to read this whole thread so i don't want to start my own conversation here about this topic and i have really nothing to say to your reply post to my first comment, i don't agree with everything you said but i don't want to start an argument about it either.

so i will give my two cents and post two good articles in my opinion. Its about jews in a historical, esoteric and cultural sense…

http://www.light-weaver.com/problems/prob1042.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.light-weaver.com/psychology1/psyc1121.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

my friend shared these with me and i thought it was enlightening and very interesting and good article, both of them.


Absolutely textbook case of antisemitism here.

First of all, the underlying predication that 'the jews' are a race with shared, essentialised characteristics.

Second of all that those essentialised characteristics are highly prejorative. For example:

In every country and down the ages, the Jew has turned to commerce and has worked with money; they [97] are a strictly commercial and urban people and have shown little interest in agriculture, except lately under the Zionist Movement in Palestine. To their extremely materialistic tendencies they have added a great sense of the beautiful and an artistic conception which has added much to the world of art; they have ever been the patrons of the beautiful, and have also been amongst the world's great philanthropists and this in spite of undesirable and devious business methods, which have made them greatly disliked and mistrusted in the world of business.

To find this enlightening, interesting and good demonstrates an astonishing ignorance about recent (i.e. 19th and 20th century) European history of antisemitic propaganda.

:anjali:


It's not just the ignorance, tobes, I think the underlying cause is a tribalistic mode of thinking. This thinking makes sweeping statements "we are like this", "they are like that", it deals in generalities, theories and ignores the facts on the ground, but the owrst part is the unconscious deep identification with "us" and fear of "them", who get progressively dehumanised. Sadly, even after Nazism, Pol Pot, etc etc, such thinking is still the norm in many places in the world and more prevalent than we realise in the West.
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Re: Israel, Palestine, Antisemitism

Postby tobes » Fri May 16, 2014 3:55 am

Dan74, being well schooled in psychoanalytic informed social theory, I can only agree entirely.

Lamentably, there is so little in political (and other) discourses that manages to escape or subvert the unconscious logic of Us and Them.

Buddhists are not immune, nor are Jews, Zionists and Palestinians.

In fact, with the conflict in Northern Ireland now relatively settled, I can't think of any other situation and discourse which so quickly degenerates into what you call tribal identifications than Israel/Palestine.

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Re: Israel, Palestine, Antisemitism

Postby greentara » Fri May 16, 2014 4:23 am

David, You forgot to mention India, Its the most tolerant of countries. Jews lived there and were never persecuted. Hindus were often converted by force under the moghuls, hence the large muslim population and they still managed to live cheek by jowl, side by side. The large influx of Tibetans following the Dalai Lama has swelled the Tibetan population within India with few problems. All this needs to be recognized.
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Re: Israel, Palestine, Antisemitism

Postby ovi » Fri May 16, 2014 11:16 am

As far as I know, Christians were not allowed to charge interest, while Jews could charge interest to non-Jews. This made Jews much more likely to be involved in financial activities and it made the Catholic Church clergy angry for not having complete control through their dogma. When you have opposite parties striving to maintain or increase their power, wealth and privileges, you get conflict.
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Re: Scotland becomes 17th country to approve same-sex marria

Postby tlee » Fri Aug 22, 2014 4:22 am

rory wrote:Ovi:
Indeed, the Middle East should treat Christians, atheists and gay people equally. But not the Jews.
]

and the anti-semitism above is the reason why secular Jews such as myself have to support Israel...ugh.

Rory


If you follow the trail, you will find that Zionists are behind modern xenophobia against Jews. The "Anti-Defamation" League, which is a hate group disguised as the opposite, owned and operated "ratfacedjews com" according to this http://www.veteranstoday.com/2013/01/22 ... djews-com/.

There is a book called, "They Dare Speak Out" that is worth reading about the many tricks that Zionists pull in the USA to shut people up.
Getting people to attack Jews or attacking Jews themselves under the guise that they're white supremacists or something is how Israel shuts up Jews that think critically.

https://archive.org/stream/They-Dare-To ... y_djvu.txt

I think it is useful to have an Orthodox Jewish view of this:
"The lesson of this parable is obvious: through their sins and their deeds the Zionists are the cause of all troubles and sufferings, yet they always come around to brag that they are the saviors when they are actually the arsonists! Those that do not wish to seek the truth fall for the ruse and think that they are saviors. Satan blinds their eyes so that they end up in heresy and atheism, G-d forbid. By analyzing all the activities of the Zionists one can easily discover that their acts are utter destruction and no salvation. " - Rabbi Yoel Teitelbaum, Grand Rabbi of Satmar (1887-1979) http://www.truetorahjews.org/rebyoel

If you're Jewish, the best protection for you is to make it absolutely crystal clear that there is no Jewish consensus on Israel.
Don't let simple minded people connect Jewish heritage with the modern racist Israel.
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Re: Israel, Palestine, Antisemitism

Postby Dan74 » Fri Aug 22, 2014 5:44 am

tlee, you realise that the Veteran's Today is a hate-mongering fascist publication with 0 credibility. Before you accept something as fact, you should verify the information, going back to original sources and cross-reference them. Otherwise it is a belief, possibly entirely irrational.

I'd certainly like to see some backup to what you are asserting. So far it sounds to me like conspiracy theorising of the "jews/zionists are the root of all evil" kind. I know you try to draw a line between Jews and Zionists, but Zionism doesn't have a great deal of meaning now. Do you mean Neo-Zionism, which is really a right-wing nationalism of Israeli variety or Post-Zionism which is a progressive re-evaluation of Israel's status in the modern world?
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Re: Israel, Palestine, Antisemitism

Postby Jikan » Fri Aug 22, 2014 1:08 pm

It's true that there is no consensus among contemporary Jews on many aspects of the topic of Israel. This is in evidence in the writings of such well-regarded thinkers as Judith Butler, for instance--it's not necessary to go to the whackaloon fringes of the interwebz to support this claim.

That said, given that this is a discussion board committed to Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhism, it's not at all clear why or how this thread is relevant. Let's find a way to swing the discussion out of the gutter and back to the Dharma, or it'll be locked for good.
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Re: Israel, Palestine, Antisemitism

Postby Malcolm » Fri Aug 22, 2014 1:57 pm

Jikan wrote:It's true that there is no consensus among contemporary Jews on many aspects of the topic of Israel. This is in evidence in the writings of such well-regarded thinkers as Judith Butler, for instance--it's not necessary to go to the whackaloon fringes of the interwebz to support this claim.

That said, given that this is a discussion board committed to Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhism, it's not at all clear why or how this thread is relevant. Let's find a way to swing the discussion out of the gutter and back to the Dharma, or it'll be locked for good.


Kill this thread. Despite my complete lack of enchantment for Abrahamic religions, such conversations are worse then useless because apart from expressions of compassion for all involved, what is there really for Buddhists to discuss?
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Re: Israel, Palestine, Antisemitism

Postby conebeckham » Fri Aug 22, 2014 4:25 pm

I'm in agreement....this thread serves no use.
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Re: Israel, Palestine, Antisemitism

Postby rory » Sat Aug 23, 2014 2:48 am

well it's interesting to me as a Jewish person to see how supposedly people with Buddhist views can justify such irrational hatred (hey if there were a world-wide Zionist conspiracy you can bet we'd have a better piece of real estate! Give me Argentina any day), maybe if they think about it they won't hate so much...but I doubt it, seeing as how this subject keeps coming up *sigh*
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Re: Israel, Palestine, Antisemitism

Postby Johnny Dangerous » Sat Aug 23, 2014 5:53 am

locked for now, you can let me know if that's a problem, but I get the feeling there is a consensus here.
"Just as a lotus does not grow out of a well-levelled soil but from the mire, in the same way the awakening mind
is not born in the hearts of disciples in whom the moisture of attachment has dried up. It grows instead in the hearts of ordinary sentient beings who possess in full the fetters of bondage." -Se Chilbu Choki Gyaltsen
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