Israel, Palestine, Antisemitism

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Re: Israel, Palestine, Antisemitism

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sun May 04, 2014 11:09 am

rory wrote:I love Nemo "the Jews left in A.D. 70" like it was a stroll, the Judaeans (and historically use this term) were defeated by the Romans and a large part of the population enslaved. And yes there was a diaspora.
Actually Judaeans were equal citizens under the law during the Roman Empire until Constantine I the first Christian emperor came to the throne. Here is a nice paragraph from Fordham University in NY (Jesuit Institution)

The real significance of Roman law for the Jew and his history is that it exerted a profound influence on subsequent Christian and even Muslim legislation. The second-class status of citizenship of the Jew, as crystallized in the Justinian code, was thus entrenched in the medieval world, and under the influence of the Church the disabilities imposed upon him received religious sanction and relegated him even to lower levels.
The quote you trotted out talks about the Emperor Justinian NOT the Emperor Constantine. Constantine was a sun worshiper that converted to Christianity because it suited his political needs. Actually the Byzantine emperors provided state funding and support to ALL religious sects in the empire up until the reign of JUSTINIAN. The emperor Justinian was the first Byzantine emperor to adopt Christianity as the sole religion of the Byzantine Empire and to actively promote the destruction of non-Christian places of worship and their replacement with Christian churches (he did this in order to re-unify the East and West Byzantine Empires under a single political and religious system). He enacted these laws against ALL non-Christian religions, not just the Jews.

As for the Semites, well, you do realise that Palestinians are Semites too? Right? The state of Israel is anti-Semitic because it works actively against the needs of all Semitic people in order to benefit its political and economic elites. To be opposed to the current mode of functioning of the state of Israel is to be pro-Semitic.
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Re: Israel, Palestine, Antisemitism

Postby M.G. » Mon May 05, 2014 7:31 am

The real significance of Roman law for the Jew and his history is that it exerted a profound As for the Semites, well, you do realise that Palestinians are Semites too? Right? The state of Israel is anti-Semitic because it works actively against the needs of all Semitic people in order to benefit its political and economic elites. To be opposed to the current mode of functioning of the state of Israel is to be pro-Semitic.


I have to make one comment here, and it's meant respectfully. Asserting that Israel is Anti-Semitic because its government mistreats Palestinians improperly conflates that word's etymology with its meaning. "Anti-Semitism" was coined by 19th Century Europeans as a way of describing negative prejudices against Jews. It would have been more etymologically accurate if the word "Judeopathy" had become popular instead, but that wasn't how things played out.

That said, I was raised in a Secular American Jewish home and my father, an Israeli citizen and former member of its Air Force member, was always fairly honest with me when I was growing up about the very real injustices inflicted upon the Palestinians in the creation of the fledging Jewish State, and the cruelty of the ongoing occupation. I've been to the Occupied Territories, and while one could fairly argue the conflict gets disproportionate media attention, it's still a pretty ugly picture by any standard. There's always bad things going on places other than Israel and Palestine, but I'm not sure there are worse ongoing noncombat situations in any democratic, economically comfortable, and technologically advanced society. I don't have much in way of solutions to offer, either; I think the reality at this point is that the two peoples have too many internal factions disinterested in anything but violence for peace to be a viable option.
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Re: Israel, Palestine, Antisemitism

Postby Dan74 » Tue May 06, 2014 5:38 pm

M.G. wrote:
The real significance of Roman law for the Jew and his history is that it exerted a profound As for the Semites, well, you do realise that Palestinians are Semites too? Right? The state of Israel is anti-Semitic because it works actively against the needs of all Semitic people in order to benefit its political and economic elites. To be opposed to the current mode of functioning of the state of Israel is to be pro-Semitic.


I have to make one comment here, and it's meant respectfully. Asserting that Israel is Anti-Semitic because its government mistreats Palestinians improperly conflates that word's etymology with its meaning. "Anti-Semitism" was coined by 19th Century Europeans as a way of describing negative prejudices against Jews. It would have been more etymologically accurate if the word "Judeopathy" had become popular instead, but that wasn't how things played out.

That said, I was raised in a Secular American Jewish home and my father, an Israeli citizen and former member of its Air Force member, was always fairly honest with me when I was growing up about the very real injustices inflicted upon the Palestinians in the creation of the fledging Jewish State, and the cruelty of the ongoing occupation. I've been to the Occupied Territories, and while one could fairly argue the conflict gets disproportionate media attention, it's still a pretty ugly picture by any standard. There's always bad things going on places other than Israel and Palestine, but I'm not sure there are worse ongoing noncombat situations in any democratic, economically comfortable, and technologically advanced society. I don't have much in way of solutions to offer, either; I think the reality at this point is that the two peoples have too many internal factions disinterested in anything but violence for peace to be a viable option.


This is my understanding as well, M.G.

That said just today I had a debate with a fairly right-wing Hebrew University professor who I am sharing an office with at the moment and whose main argument was that while we may like to think that conflicts are solved by appeals to justice and an equitable solution, the reality is vastly different and only money and power determine the outcome, there and everywhere else.
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Re: Scotland becomes 17th country to approve same-sex marria

Postby LynyrdSkynyrd » Tue May 06, 2014 6:53 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
rory wrote:Ovi: [qmarried i an "observant" jew, Indeed, the Middle East should treat Christians, atheists and gay people equally. But not the Jews.
]

and the anti-semitism above is the reason why secular Jews such as myself have to support Israel...ugh.

Rory



Disagreeing with the actions of the state of Israel, and disagreeing with Zionism, is not anti-semitism, as much as some supporters of Zionist political positions would like to equate the two. I assume this is what Ovi meant by his statement, but I could be wrong.

Nor does disagreement with these things mean support of oppression of women etc. in Muslim societies, another bit of distraction that people like to trow out in such situations. Disagreement, even disgust with the way a given culture functions doesn't mean it's ok to do what you want to them militarily...though of course, this is also the typical (imperialist) argument for America trotting around the world setting up it's client states etc...all about justice and democracy, forcibly civilizing the savages... supposedly. It's really just the modern version of manifest destiny, IMO.

There certainly are racists who are (by definition) anti-Zionist, as one can find racists and bigots who follow an number of positions that are convenient for them. However, there are also plenty of people (including some Jews, within and without Israel, who often get accused of 'self hatred") who question it. So I reject the equivalency you are making between criticism of Israel and antisemitism.

I think the reason that many American Jews support Israel as uncritically, and unequivocally as they often do is the successful marketing efforts of the Israeli government to tie sympathy and religious feeling to what amounts to a mostly political project - and one which arguably flies in the face of the Jewish value of Tikkun Olam in many ways. This is evidenced by the fact hat most won't even argue in favor of Zionism with any argument other than 1) vilifying the "other side", I guess to imply that settlement and occupation is justified by things like the poor position of women in Muslim societies, or 2) equating any criticism of Israel with antisemitism. You can look within parts of the Jewish community in this country and find a certain degree of nationalism, xenophobia, and othering as you would in any other self-segregating community - I can tell you that as someone in an intermarriage.



P.S.:

Before it gets thrown out at me - i'm married to an observant Jew (who wouldn't necessarily agree with me on some of these things), so don't go there. Antisemitism is certainly real, but it requires actual antisemitism, it shouldn't be trotted out every time you don't like someone's political opinions, IMO.[/quote]

If you are not Jewish, you are not married to an "observant" jew. According to Jewish law, jews can only marry jews. And to be observant....you hav3to observe the laws, thats what it means.

But maybe youre Jewish?

But being a Zionist and supporting what the Israeli government does without question, is another false association (one you invoked above). So many holes there just gonna let that assertion of yours sink silently into an obscure and silent death....

But the antisemitism that inspires Zionism comes from a sense of survival. Everyone has persecuted and killed the Jews, so they feel like they need a place of their own. At *all* costs. Pretty simple actually.

And Israel is a secular state, not religious. Actually founded on communist ideas.
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Re: Israel, Palestine, Antisemitism

Postby M.G. » Tue May 06, 2014 9:32 pm

@Dan74 - It's probably true that power relations and economics play more of a role in conflict resolution than idealism. One of the reasons, in my opinion, Israel's government is unlikely to take the steps needed for real peace (basically, uprooting most West Bank settlements) is because the costs of continuing their occupation are relatively low compared to the costs of ending it. (And many of its leaders probably correctly believe real peace is a political impossiblity anyway because of the huge number of extremists among both peoples who only want violence.) From a cold economic perspective, how great would the benefits of a peace treaty with the Palestinians be to Israel? They'd still have most of the same regional enemies, and a bit more goodwill from Western leftists and moderates isn't really that financially valuable a commodity.

@LynyrdSkynyrd - I think a lot of Jews react negatively to criticism of Zionism and Zionists because such too often sounds like an attempt to divide "good Jews" from "bad Jews"; I suppose the best analogy I can give is that its like hearing, say, Rush Limbaugh hurl crude, obviously racially charged invective at Black politicians and intellectuals and then praise Thomas Sowell and Clarence Thomas to the skies as "uncommonly astute thinkers." Obviously, I don't think criticism of Israel is necessarily motivated by bigotry, but there are some really bigoted people out there who criticize Israel with barely disguised hatred for all things Jewish.

To the extent that my opinion matters - i.e., very little - I suppose I am a Zionist insofar as I have no problems with a Jewish state in the Middle East, so long as Israel's settlement program ends and the Palestinians receive full self-determination.
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Re: Israel, Palestine, Antisemitism

Postby Dan74 » Wed May 07, 2014 3:33 am

Zionism itself is a thorny issue and one I am still debating with my current office mate. While it made a lot more sense in the aftermath of the Holocaust, now I really wonder how one can justify promoting an identity of a state that is so limited...

PS The Hebrew Uni professor freely admits that his views are in minority among academics in Israel, most of them being on the left of the spectrum, much like academics elsewhere.
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Re: Israel, Palestine, Antisemitism

Postby M.G. » Wed May 07, 2014 4:05 am

Dan74 wrote:Zionism itself is a thorny issue and one I am still debating with my current office mate. While it made a lot more sense in the aftermath of the Holocaust, now I really wonder how one can justify promoting an identity of a state that is so limited...

PS The Hebrew Uni professor freely admits that his views are in minority among academics in Israel, most of them being on the left of the spectrum, much like academics elsewhere.



Hmmmm.... basing a state's identity on religion is certainly limited, but is it improperly limited? Certainly lots of nations presently define themselves as Islamic or Christian, and often got that way through dirty politics or war. You're probably a Buddhist if you're posting here (correct me if I'm wrong) and while I don't know your specific Dharmic affiliations, the Tibetan culture which shapes so much of the discussion on this forum was largely a product of politicized state religion. As a general principle it certainly seems like the world accepts the validity of officially religious states.
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Re: Israel, Palestine, Antisemitism

Postby greentara » Wed May 07, 2014 4:21 am

Its hard to make any real distinction between the myriad causes. The Uighurs (Muslims) in China, the Tibetans plight after the Chinese invasion, the trials and tribulations of the Palestinians etc etc So much injustice where ever you look.... but for whatever reason Israel rightly or wrongly seems to hog the lions share of attention. Maybe its just that they don't have Chinas economic clout!
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Re: Israel, Palestine, Antisemitism

Postby M.G. » Wed May 07, 2014 4:32 am

greentara wrote:Its hard to make any real distinction between the myriad causes. The Uighurs (Muslims) in China, the Tibetans plight after the Chinese invasion, the trials and tribulations of the Palestinians etc etc So much injustice where ever you look.... but for whatever reason Israel rightly or wrongly seems to hog the lions share of attention. Maybe its just that they don't have Chinas economic clout!



Part of the reason that Israel's human right violations get a disproportionate share of media press has to do with Biblical myth-narratives, taken quite seriously by large numbers of Americans especially, in which turbulence in that region is understood as heralding important eschatological events. Also, Zionists are somewhat justified in arguing that part of the issue is that Israel's numerous Islamic, Communist, and overtly Fascist/racist enemies propagandize the issue more to make Israel look bad then out of serious human rights concerns. And to some degree, Jews have a certain mystique because of the disproportionate religious influence of their faith, the scholarly contributions of some of their intellectuals, and their distinctive ethnic and cultural qualities which taken together lends itself to analysis and discussion, perhaps too much so.
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Re: Israel, Palestine, Antisemitism

Postby Jikan » Wed May 07, 2014 3:21 pm

M.G. wrote:
greentara wrote:Its hard to make any real distinction between the myriad causes. The Uighurs (Muslims) in China, the Tibetans plight after the Chinese invasion, the trials and tribulations of the Palestinians etc etc So much injustice where ever you look.... but for whatever reason Israel rightly or wrongly seems to hog the lions share of attention. Maybe its just that they don't have Chinas economic clout!



Part of the reason that Israel's human right violations get a disproportionate share of media press has to do with Biblical myth-narratives, taken quite seriously by large numbers of Americans especially, in which turbulence in that region is understood as heralding important eschatological events. Also, Zionists are somewhat justified in arguing that part of the issue is that Israel's numerous Islamic, Communist, and overtly Fascist/racist enemies propagandize the issue more to make Israel look bad then out of serious human rights concerns. And to some degree, Jews have a certain mystique because of the disproportionate religious influence of their faith, the scholarly contributions of some of their intellectuals, and their distinctive ethnic and cultural qualities which taken together lends itself to analysis and discussion, perhaps too much so.


I think there's another reason for the problem you diagnose. Israel expects to be treated as a contemporary liberal state, basically like any other European state. This raises the stakes when it comes to human rights, because, in the eyes of many, Israel's approach to Palestine directly contradicts those aspirations to join the club. You don't get to act like Iran or China while expecting to be treated like Canada or the Netherlands (goes the argument).

The contemporary political culture in Israel is also problematic. This pattern has been observed to me: Question Israeli policies with regard to the Palestinians? Ask for a comparison to the Shoah and get shouted down. Rinse, repeat, &c. It's black/white, us/them, and everything is an existential threat like the Shoah. Of course, evocations of this history go both ways. It's also been observed to me that contemporary Israeli settlement practices and bureaucratic policies beg comparison to German aspirations to clear a little more Lebensraum to the east (substitute Jewish settlers for Germans, and Palestinians for Poles, and you get the analogy)... which is to say that, to the minds of others, the state of Israel is repeating in weird ways exactly the kinds of dynamics it was created as an antidote to.

These aren't my ideas; I'm not accusing Israel of being like Nazi-era Germany, nor am I arguing that Palestinian resistance to Israeli policies is akin to the Shoah. I bring these narratives up because I think they point to different ways in which different groups of people explain their samsara: the same tight circles of pain and abuse reciprocating, again and again. Such despair. Who is on the right side of it?

Finally: who are Israel's Communist enemies? Is there a Communist state that presents an existential threat to Israel?
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Re: Israel, Palestine, Antisemitism

Postby M.G. » Wed May 07, 2014 6:12 pm

Jikan wrote:
M.G. wrote:
greentara wrote:Its hard to make any real distinction between the myriad causes. The Uighurs (Muslims) in China, the Tibetans plight after the Chinese invasion, the trials and tribulations of the Palestinians etc etc So much injustice where ever you look.... but for whatever reason Israel rightly or wrongly seems to hog the lions share of attention. Maybe its just that they don't have Chinas economic clout!



Part of the reason that Israel's human right violations get a disproportionate share of media press has to do with Biblical myth-narratives, taken quite seriously by large numbers of Americans especially, in which turbulence in that region is understood as heralding important eschatological events. Also, Zionists are somewhat justified in arguing that part of the issue is that Israel's numerous Islamic, Communist, and overtly Fascist/racist enemies propagandize the issue more to make Israel look bad then out of serious human rights concerns. And to some degree, Jews have a certain mystique because of the disproportionate religious influence of their faith, the scholarly contributions of some of their intellectuals, and their distinctive ethnic and cultural qualities which taken together lends itself to analysis and discussion, perhaps too much so.


I think there's another reason for the problem you diagnose. Israel expects to be treated as a contemporary liberal state, basically like any other European state. This raises the stakes when it comes to human rights, because, in the eyes of many, Israel's approach to Palestine directly contradicts those aspirations to join the club. You don't get to act like Iran or China while expecting to be treated like Canada or the Netherlands (goes the argument).

The contemporary political culture in Israel is also problematic. This pattern has been observed to me: Question Israeli policies with regard to the Palestinians? Ask for a comparison to the Shoah and get shouted down. Rinse, repeat, &c. It's black/white, us/them, and everything is an existential threat like the Shoah. Of course, evocations of this history go both ways. It's also been observed to me that contemporary Israeli settlement practices and bureaucratic policies beg comparison to German aspirations to clear a little more Lebensraum to the east (substitute Jewish settlers for Germans, and Palestinians for Poles, and you get the analogy)... which is to say that, to the minds of others, the state of Israel is repeating in weird ways exactly the kinds of dynamics it was created as an antidote to.

These aren't my ideas; I'm not accusing Israel of being like Nazi-era Germany, nor am I arguing that Palestinian resistance to Israeli policies is akin to the Shoah. I bring these narratives up because I think they point to different ways in which different groups of people explain their samsara: the same tight circles of pain and abuse reciprocating, again and again. Such despair. Who is on the right side of it?

Finally: who are Israel's Communist enemies? Is there a Communist state that presents an existential threat to Israel?



I agree with your first point. In my first post on this thread I mentioned that while there are certainly lots of bad situations in the world, I couldn't think of any worse ongoing noncombat situation perpetrated by a democratic, economically comfortable, and technologically modern society. To the extent that disproportionate media attention should be given to Israel's human rights violations, that would be the most compelling argument for it, to my mind.

I can't speak to your experience with Jews or Israelis, but I've observed a lot of vibrant debate in many circles on these issues. I've also come across a lot of people who shout "persecution" and "Shoah" or just walk away angry without listening. Certainly Israel's political culture seems pretty sclerotic and reactionary as of the last decade. I suspect that Israel's leaders basically believe, probably correctly, that real peace is impossible and bellicosity in the service of nationalist maximalism is at least an achievable goal.

Not a huge deal, but in terms of Communism, from the 1960's onwards the Soviet Union viewed Israel as a rival and adversary. Many people reading this probably know that that wasn't always the case, but certainly in the latter portion of the Cold War anti-Zionism was a Communist value. There are no contemporary Communist organizations which pose an existential threat to Israel but intellectuals sympathetic to Communism (like the late Alexander Cockburn) remain vocally anti-Zionist, in my observation, and this may have some influence on the non-Communist global left.
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Re: Israel, Palestine, Antisemitism

Postby rory » Thu May 08, 2014 4:32 am

Thanks for coming into the discussion M.G. I agree with you wholeheartedly....I too would love to see 2 states, no war, no camps, no suicide bombing etc but I don't see it happening anytime soon.
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Re: Scotland becomes 17th country to approve same-sex marria

Postby Johnny Dangerous » Sun May 11, 2014 7:40 pm

If you are not Jewish, you are not married to an "observant" jew. According to Jewish law, jews can only marry jews. And to be observant....you hav3to observe the laws, thats what it means.

But maybe youre Jewish?

But being a Zionist and supporting what the Israeli government does without question, is another false association (one you invoked above). So many holes there just gonna let that assertion of yours sink silently into an obscure and silent death....

But the antisemitism that inspires Zionism comes from a sense of survival. Everyone has persecuted and killed the Jews, so they feel like they need a place of their own. At *all* costs. Pretty simple actually.

And Israel is a secular state, not religious. Actually founded on communist ideas.


You are way off, a good chunk of American Jews, and even Jews elsewhere are married to non-Jews, it is Orthodox tradition and belief to only marry other Jews, and they frown on intermarriage.. but this certainly doesn't mean that there are no Jews married to non-Jews - there are many.that is such an incorrect notion, i'd be curious where you picked it up.

Unless you consider Orthodox Jews the only ones who are truly observant..in which case, there are a lot of reconstructionists, reform, renewal and other practicing Jews who I imagine would disagree with you.


FYI generally being "Jewish" AFIAK is matrilineal.


Israel is a secular state in many senses, and it was founded by (Zionist, obviously) socialists, this is not the same as saying it was "founded on communist ideas". the government of Israel has been veering right for many years now. In addition, the Ultra-orthodox hold plenty of sway and (for instance) have an effect on who can immigrate on on what conditions. Zionism also is a political ideology, so I don't know why you think being a secular state is in opposition to Zionism..a big part of Zionism is a completely secular political ideology

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodor_Herzl" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.

Great posts Jikan and M.G., i'm enjoying following this discussion.
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is not born in the hearts of disciples in whom the moisture of attachment has dried up. It grows instead in the hearts of ordinary sentient beings who possess in full the fetters of bondage." -Se Chilbu Choki Gyaltsen
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Re: Israel, Palestine, Antisemitism

Postby David N. Snyder » Sun May 11, 2014 9:58 pm

Every time there has been peace talks they have always failed. Israel is willing to give up land for peace. The Palestinians are willing to take a small piece of land for their own for peace. The sticking point has always been and always will be: Jerusalem. Neither side is willing to give in. Both sides believe Jerusalem is their capitol. Neither side wants it divided.

The only solution is for the UN and perhaps the allies to make the Jerusalem - Bethlehem - Ramallah greater urban metropolitan area an international zone with each holy site administered by the religion that the site belongs to; for example Holy Sepulcher to the Christians, Al-aqsa mosque to the Muslims, Western (Wailing) Wall to the Jews.

The UN Partition plan back in 1947 called for something like this, which the Jews accepted and the Arabs did not, Civil war broke out and the Jews eventually won the war and got it all and then in subsequent years did not want to give the Palestinians anything, blaming them for not accepting the Partition to begin with; but enough with the blame already; it is almost 100 years ago, it is time for both sides to just accept that and end the violence.
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Re: Israel, Palestine, Antisemitism

Postby M.G. » Sun May 11, 2014 10:10 pm

David N. Snyder wrote:Every time there has been peace talks they have always failed. Israel is willing to give up land for peace. The Palestinians are willing to take a small piece of land for their own for peace. The sticking point has always been and always will be: Jerusalem. Neither side is willing to give in. Both sides believe Jerusalem is their capitol. Neither side wants it divided.

The only solution is for the UN and perhaps the allies to make the Jerusalem - Bethlehem - Ramallah greater urban metropolitan area an international zone with each holy site administered by the religion that the site belongs to; for example Holy Sepulcher to the Christians, Al-aqsa mosque to the Muslims, Western (Wailing) Wall to the Jews.

The UN Partition plan back in 1947 called for something like this, which the Jews accepted and the Arabs did not, Civil war broke out and the Jews eventually won the war and got it all and then in subsequent years did not want to give the Palestinians anything, blaming them for not accepting the Partition to begin with; but enough with the blame already; it is almost 100 years ago, it is time for both sides to just accept that and end the violence.



In theory I agree with most of this, but I think even more important than the matter of Jerusalem are the numbers and sheer aggressiveness of extremists who will simply never agree to peace. Basically, I'd say that in any conflict where a party has both the power and the willingness to spoil an agreement, agreement is impossible. There are many such parties in the Israel-Palestine conflict.

I wouldn't be surprised if at some far-future point we see a loose confederation emerge between Israel, Jordan and Palestine, but that is a very long ways off.
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Re: Israel, Palestine, Antisemitism

Postby KonchokZoepa » Mon May 12, 2014 12:19 pm

im not interested in reading this thread for I'm not really interested in having conversation about this topic with people who don't share the same channels of knowledge both in religious and in our worldly sense on this topic, but anyway i want to share a video about what orthodox jews in america and actually all over the world think about the secular jews who constitute the leaders of Israel. as this video says it is actually against law of Judaism for jews to govern over the holy land before their Messiah appears. well I could start ranting about this but I'm not going to… anyway check that video out.. :smile:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nMQ9C6vni0w
If the thought of demons
Never rises in your mind,
You need not fear the demon hosts around you.
It is most important to tame your mind within....

In so far as the Ultimate, or the true nature of being is concerned,
there are neither buddhas or demons.
He who frees himself from fear and hope, evil and virtue,
will realize the insubstantial and groundless nature of confusion.
Samsara will then appear as the mahamudra itself….

-Milarepa

OMMANIPADMEHUNG

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ls6P9tOYmdo
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Re: Israel, Palestine, Antisemitism

Postby M.G. » Mon May 12, 2014 1:21 pm

KonchokZoepa wrote:im not interested in reading this thread for I'm not really interested in having conversation about this topic with people who don't share the same channels of knowledge both in religious and in our worldly sense on this topic, but anyway i want to share a video about what orthodox jews in america and actually all over the world think about the secular jews who constitute the leaders of Israel. as this video says it is actually against law of Judaism for jews to govern over the holy land before their Messiah appears. well I could start ranting about this but I'm not going to… anyway check that video out.. :smile:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nMQ9C6vni0w" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Its misleading to say that this represents what Orthodox Jews all over the world think of the Israeli government. It represents what one numerically small minority Orthodox Jewish sect, the Neturei Karta, believes. (They, along with the Satmar, are the only Orthodox Jewish sects who are actively anti-Zionist.) There are large numbers of Orthodox Jews living in Israel (and, increasingly, serving in its military) and as with secular Jewry, one can find the Orthodox all over the place on any given political issue involving the Arab-Israel conflict. I've personally met Orthodox Jewish liberals as well as Orthodox Jewish settlers living on the West Bank who think secular Jews are too weak and soft when it comes to the conflict.

Its false to say its "against the law of Judaism for Jews to govern over the holy land before their Messiah comes." One could, however, correctly say that one minority interpretation of Judaism holds that present Jewish political governance over the holy land is religiously illegitimate. There are also minority interpretations of Judaism which hold that Jewish messianic prophecies refer to events which already took place centuries ago, that the messiah refers to an internal process rather than a historical event, and that one should be dubious about messianic claims of all kinds. As with other ancient religions, one can cite a passage somewhere in Judaism's voluminous texts to prove any claimed point and then cite a passage saying the exact opposite. I've personally met Orthodox Jewish rabbis who will cite all sorts of Jewish laws "proving" that Jews are presently entitled to govern all of the disputed land, and the reality is that publicly espousing religiously rooted anti-Zionist sentiments in most Orthodox synagogues is a guaranteed way to start trouble.

There's very little religious consensus on anything in Judaism, really, and not just the dimensions of the Arab-Israel conflict.
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Re: Israel, Palestine, Antisemitism

Postby KonchokZoepa » Mon May 12, 2014 8:33 pm

i will not even start this conversation because i will be banned from this forum because people will say I'm an anti-Semite due to my views about Zionists.
If the thought of demons
Never rises in your mind,
You need not fear the demon hosts around you.
It is most important to tame your mind within....

In so far as the Ultimate, or the true nature of being is concerned,
there are neither buddhas or demons.
He who frees himself from fear and hope, evil and virtue,
will realize the insubstantial and groundless nature of confusion.
Samsara will then appear as the mahamudra itself….

-Milarepa

OMMANIPADMEHUNG

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ls6P9tOYmdo
KonchokZoepa
 
Posts: 1358
Joined: Tue Sep 10, 2013 9:50 pm

Re: Israel, Palestine, Antisemitism

Postby M.G. » Mon May 12, 2014 10:06 pm

KonchokZoepa wrote:i will not even start this conversation because i will be banned from this forum because people will say I'm an anti-Semite due to my views about Zionists.



I think all religions and spiritual practices should be subject to debate and probing inquiry. I've criticized aspects of Tibetan Buddhism and at least one Hindu teacher on this very site, and many people on this thread including myself have sharply criticized the Jewish state.


That said, if claims are made on a public forum that seem to be factually inaccurate, disagreement will ensue. For that matter, any online claim made regarding a complex and heated political controversy is likely to inspire fierce argument.
Last edited by M.G. on Mon May 12, 2014 10:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
M.G.
 
Posts: 320
Joined: Sun Jun 23, 2013 12:56 am

Re: Israel, Palestine, Antisemitism

Postby KonchokZoepa » Mon May 12, 2014 10:28 pm

ahuh, thats why sometimes its better not to participate.
If the thought of demons
Never rises in your mind,
You need not fear the demon hosts around you.
It is most important to tame your mind within....

In so far as the Ultimate, or the true nature of being is concerned,
there are neither buddhas or demons.
He who frees himself from fear and hope, evil and virtue,
will realize the insubstantial and groundless nature of confusion.
Samsara will then appear as the mahamudra itself….

-Milarepa

OMMANIPADMEHUNG

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ls6P9tOYmdo
KonchokZoepa
 
Posts: 1358
Joined: Tue Sep 10, 2013 9:50 pm

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