Israel, Palestine, Antisemitism

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Re: Israel, Palestine, Antisemitism

Postby rory » Tue May 13, 2014 1:55 am

I'm Jewish too and like a good discussion. We're famous for enjoying arguing and not fearful (I certainly am not) of what you might say; make your post Konchok and let's see what happens.
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Re: Israel, Palestine, Antisemitism

Postby M.G. » Tue May 13, 2014 2:48 am

If KonchokZoepa honestly doesn't want to post any more on this topic, that's his/her prerogative.

I will say that in my observation militant anti-Zionism largely ends up enflaming and entrenching the most bellicose Israeli nationalists. And back and forth, and so on, and so on, and so on. That's samsara for you.
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Re: Israel, Palestine, Antisemitism

Postby rory » Tue May 13, 2014 3:12 am

You're right M.G.; haters gotta hate. And why they want to is just beyond me, clinging to passions indeed just gets you enmeshed further in Samsara.I do not hate anybody, I wish peace for all.

Konchok try this to rid yourself of these unwholesome emtions and spend more time with Kannon-sama.
Here we go:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-gWBj21lpM Imee Ooi chanting the Great Compassion Mantra (Nilakantha Dharani) in Sanskrit. One of my favourites.
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Re: Israel, Palestine, Antisemitism

Postby KonchokZoepa » Tue May 13, 2014 6:45 pm

thanks Rory for ur suggestion.

well, M.G i was too lazy to read this whole thread so i don't want to start my own conversation here about this topic and i have really nothing to say to your reply post to my first comment, i don't agree with everything you said but i don't want to start an argument about it either.

so i will give my two cents and post two good articles in my opinion. Its about jews in a historical, esoteric and cultural sense…

http://www.light-weaver.com/problems/prob1042.html

http://www.light-weaver.com/psychology1/psyc1121.html

my friend shared these with me and i thought it was enlightening and very interesting and good article, both of them.
If the thought of demons
Never rises in your mind,
You need not fear the demon hosts around you.
It is most important to tame your mind within....

In so far as the Ultimate, or the true nature of being is concerned,
there are neither buddhas or demons.
He who frees himself from fear and hope, evil and virtue,
will realize the insubstantial and groundless nature of confusion.
Samsara will then appear as the mahamudra itself….

-Milarepa

OMMANIPADMEHUNG

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ls6P9tOYmdo
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Re: Israel, Palestine, Antisemitism

Postby M.G. » Tue May 13, 2014 9:08 pm

KonchokZoepa wrote:thanks Rory for ur suggestion.

well, M.G i was too lazy to read this whole thread so i don't want to start my own conversation here about this topic and i have really nothing to say to your reply post to my first comment, i don't agree with everything you said but i don't want to start an argument about it either.

so i will give my two cents and post two good articles in my opinion. Its about jews in a historical, esoteric and cultural sense…

http://www.light-weaver.com/problems/prob1042.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.light-weaver.com/psychology1/psyc1121.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

my friend shared these with me and i thought it was enlightening and very interesting and good article, both of them.



I read these essays a couple of years ago. They're new age myths, obviously, and not historical analyses; I assume if nothing else we can agree that ascribing occult planetary descriptors to the Jewish people as a whole falls outside of conventional logical discourse. I'm not against mythology, which certainly plays a huge role in structuring all of our internal lives, and I think new age myths are as valid as older ones. That said, I think there are probably too many myths about Jews, and I consider the excess of wildly incompatible mythic narratives (Christian Fundamentalist, Jewish, Islamic, Fascist/racist, occultic, etc) on the subject one of the reasons why this topic always seems to incite such heated disagreement.

I can respect you not wanting to argue this issue, which is probably more likely to stir passions than lead to consensus or truth.
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Re: Israel, Palestine, Antisemitism

Postby theanarchist » Tue May 13, 2014 9:22 pm

Jikan wrote:The contemporary political culture in Israel is also problematic. This pattern has been observed to me: Question Israeli policies with regard to the Palestinians? Ask for a comparison to the Shoah and get shouted down. Rinse, repeat, &c. It's black/white, us/them, and everything is an existential threat like the Shoah. Of course, evocations of this history go both ways. It's also been observed to me that contemporary Israeli settlement practices and bureaucratic policies beg comparison to German aspirations to clear a little more Lebensraum to the east (substitute Jewish settlers for Germans, and Palestinians for Poles, and you get the analogy)... which is to say that, to the minds of others, the state of Israel is repeating in weird ways exactly the kinds of dynamics it was created as an antidote to.




To me it seems they are instrumentalizing the Shoah, hiding behind it to get away with everything. And this disgusting, yet clever strategy obvioulsly works quite well. And so this nation behaves like a spoiled kid with a dysfunctional family background, that is backed up with daddy USA's atomic weapons and doesn't have to follow any rules, taking whatever it likes and terrorizing whomever it doesn't, part posttraumatic paranoia, part greed, part megalomania, 100% narcissistic, with no regard to the well-being of others. (of course that's not the attitude of all Israelis, but enough vote for politicians who stand for this sort of mentality)
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Re: Israel, Palestine, Antisemitism

Postby M.G. » Tue May 13, 2014 10:06 pm

theanarchist wrote:
Jikan wrote:The contemporary political culture in Israel is also problematic. This pattern has been observed to me: Question Israeli policies with regard to the Palestinians? Ask for a comparison to the Shoah and get shouted down. Rinse, repeat, &c. It's black/white, us/them, and everything is an existential threat like the Shoah. Of course, evocations of this history go both ways. It's also been observed to me that contemporary Israeli settlement practices and bureaucratic policies beg comparison to German aspirations to clear a little more Lebensraum to the east (substitute Jewish settlers for Germans, and Palestinians for Poles, and you get the analogy)... which is to say that, to the minds of others, the state of Israel is repeating in weird ways exactly the kinds of dynamics it was created as an antidote to.




To me it seems they are instrumentalizing the Shoah, hiding behind it to get away with everything. And this disgusting, yet clever strategy obvioulsly works quite well. And so this nation behaves like a spoiled kid with a dysfunctional family background, that is backed up with daddy USA's atomic weapons and doesn't have to follow any rules, taking whatever it likes and terrorizing whomever it doesn't, part posttraumatic paranoia, part greed, part megalomania, 100% narcissistic, with no regard to the well-being of others. (of course that's not the attitude of all Israelis, but enough vote for politicians who stand for this sort of mentality)


Is it a clever strategy? I don't think at this point in time there's anyone seriously refraining from criticizing Israel because of the events of the 40's. In my observation, I'd say people are likely to get annoyed, not intimidated or silenced, when they hear the Shoah cited crassly.

I've already opined that the geopolitics of the region dictate Israeli actions much more than the national character. I'd interpret Israeli bellicosity as more of a response to a hostile environment where the chance of real peace is remote than a statement about their national psyche or personality traits.
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Re: Israel, Palestine, Antisemitism

Postby theanarchist » Tue May 13, 2014 10:44 pm

M.G. wrote:Is it a clever strategy? I don't think at this point in time there's anyone seriously refraining from criticizing Israel because of the events of the 40's..



But every time the behaviour of the state of Israel in the region is critizised they scream ANTISEMITISM and the western nations obediently shut up.

For example if you critizise the acts of Putin/Russia in the Ukraine are you accused to be antirussianorthodox or antislavic or antirussian? No. But if you critizise the israel government that's usually what you get to hear? Antisemitism.
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Re: Israel, Palestine, Antisemitism

Postby M.G. » Tue May 13, 2014 10:50 pm

theanarchist wrote:
M.G. wrote:Is it a clever strategy? I don't think at this point in time there's anyone seriously refraining from criticizing Israel because of the events of the 40's..



But every time the behaviour of the state of Israel in the region is critizised they scream ANTISEMITISM and the western nations obediently shut up.

For example if you critizise the acts of Putin/Russia in the Ukraine are you accused to be antirussianorthodox or antislavic or antirussian? No. But if you critizise the israel government that's usually what you get to hear? Antisemitism.



Do they shut up? Certainly Israel's critics are pretty vocal.

In terms of geopolitics, I'd say how the Western nations treat Israel has much more to do with its value as a trade partner than the degree to which its partisans shout about anti-Semitism.
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Re: Israel, Palestine, Antisemitism

Postby theanarchist » Tue May 13, 2014 10:52 pm

M.G. wrote:I've already opined that the geopolitics of the region dictate Israeli actions much more than the national character. I'd interpret Israeli bellicosity as more of a response to a hostile environment where the chance of real peace is remote than a statement about their national psyche or personality traits.



Yeah, the environment was not really friendly when the state of Israel was formed. But did they do ANYTHING to prove that they are not a problem in the region? All they wanted was confrontation. And confrontation they got.
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Re: Israel, Palestine, Antisemitism

Postby theanarchist » Tue May 13, 2014 10:57 pm

M.G. wrote:Do they shut up? Certainly Israel's critics are pretty vocal. .
[/quote]


The USA is still backing them up militarily. The US government makes statements for example about the settlement politics but they don't enforce anything. It's just blabla, and the Israeli government acts offended with accusations of antisemitism and they think "let them talk". And everything keeps going on as before.
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Re: Israel, Palestine, Antisemitism

Postby M.G. » Tue May 13, 2014 11:07 pm

theanarchist wrote:
M.G. wrote:I've already opined that the geopolitics of the region dictate Israeli actions much more than the national character. I'd interpret Israeli bellicosity as more of a response to a hostile environment where the chance of real peace is remote than a statement about their national psyche or personality traits.



Yeah, the environment was not really friendly when the state of Israel was formed. But did they do ANYTHING to prove that they are not a problem in the region? All they wanted was confrontation. And confrontation they got.


I think the logic of Israeli military policy is largely driven by the impossibility of long-term peace and her attempt to maximize national power, which in a hostile region largely correlates to military power. That's not meant as a defense of Israeli policy, more a cold analysis. It's logical to develop nuclear weaponry and project bellicosity if conflict is inevitable.
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Re: Israel, Palestine, Antisemitism

Postby M.G. » Tue May 13, 2014 11:11 pm

theanarchist wrote:
M.G. wrote:Do they shut up? Certainly Israel's critics are pretty vocal. .



The USA is still backing them up militarily. The US government makes statements for example about the settlement politics but they don't enforce anything. It's just blabla, and the Israeli government acts offended with accusations of antisemitism and they think "let them talk". And everything keeps going on as before.[/quote]

I don't think American support of Israel has much to do with accusations of anti-Semitism, although its useful for pro-Israel elements in the United States to be aggressively vocal on the subject. Its more a function of domestic lobbying politics (Christian and Jewish) and the depth and length of the two countries' economic and military partnership. For diplomatic reasons the USA will make a show of opposing Israeli settlements, sometimes more sincerely than not, but there really isn't that much the USA can do to craft peace or stop the settlement project, and given the strength and sheer inertia behind the US-Israel alliance the effort would probably be a distraction from more viable diplomatic and political goals.
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Re: Israel, Palestine, Antisemitism

Postby theanarchist » Wed May 14, 2014 12:14 am

M.G. wrote: but there really isn't that much the USA can do to craft peace or stop the settlement project,.



Oh I think economic sanctions would do just fine to change that attitude.
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Re: Israel, Palestine, Antisemitism

Postby M.G. » Wed May 14, 2014 12:57 am

theanarchist wrote:
M.G. wrote: but there really isn't that much the USA can do to craft peace or stop the settlement project,.



Oh I think economic sanctions would do just fine to change that attitude.


Maybe I could have more accurately said "there isn't much the USA realistically could do to craft peace..."

If economic sanctions were imposed - which I don't think will happen for reasons already stated - I still think real peace would be unlikely to emerge, although I'd agree such would probably deter further settlements.
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Re: Israel, Palestine, Antisemitism

Postby M.G. » Wed May 14, 2014 1:11 am

theanarchist wrote:
M.G. wrote:I've already opined that the geopolitics of the region dictate Israeli actions much more than the national character. I'd interpret Israeli bellicosity as more of a response to a hostile environment where the chance of real peace is remote than a statement about their national psyche or personality traits.



Yeah, the environment was not really friendly when the state of Israel was formed. But did they do ANYTHING to prove that they are not a problem in the region? All they wanted was confrontation. And confrontation they got.


Some nuance needs to be honored here. Israel's government has been willing to pursue peace with rivals, as with Egypt and Jordan, when such was realistically achievable and there was perceived potential for national gain. The issue is largely whether Israel is willing to accord self-determination to the Palestinians, and if not, the extent to which that is because peace between those two peoples is impossible.
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Re: Israel, Palestine, Antisemitism

Postby Sherab Dorje » Wed May 14, 2014 10:56 am

The Israeli state is too geographically significant, for the US not to back them. It cuts the Arab (and Muslim) world in half, physically isolating the African part from the Arab peninsula (and beyond). It plays the same role as the control of the Bosporus strait used to play (and still does, to an extent). It's geographically strategic importance is recognised by the US, and it is one of the reasons that it continues to turn a blind eye to the shenanigans of the Israeli state.
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Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Israel, Palestine, Antisemitism

Postby David N. Snyder » Wed May 14, 2014 6:13 pm

By coincidence I came across this article today:
'Unprecedented' global study finds 1 in 4 adults anti-Semitic

Three quarters of the people surveyed said they've never met a Jewish person. That figure includes most of the people who believe a majority of the anti-Semitic stereotypes are probably true.


This tends to be true of any hatred or discrimination. It usually fades as people come into contact with members of that group. Not knowing the people, they tend to accept stereotypes or just assume them to be true. I remember during the height of the Iraq and Afghanistan wars, the U.S. news media seemed to only portray Muslims as extremists, all wearing turbans and women all wearing burqas. If you visit a Muslim country, you see the reality where only a small percentage wear turbans and burqas. But if your only exposure is what you see in the media, then stereotypes tend to prevail.

In Laos, only 0.2% of the adult population holds anti-Semitic views, the survey found. Also at the bottom of the list were the Philippines, Sweden and the Netherlands.


Laos, a Buddhist country; the least hateful. :twothumbsup:
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Re: Israel, Palestine, Antisemitism

Postby tobes » Fri May 16, 2014 12:17 am

KonchokZoepa wrote:thanks Rory for ur suggestion.

well, M.G i was too lazy to read this whole thread so i don't want to start my own conversation here about this topic and i have really nothing to say to your reply post to my first comment, i don't agree with everything you said but i don't want to start an argument about it either.

so i will give my two cents and post two good articles in my opinion. Its about jews in a historical, esoteric and cultural sense…

http://www.light-weaver.com/problems/prob1042.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.light-weaver.com/psychology1/psyc1121.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

my friend shared these with me and i thought it was enlightening and very interesting and good article, both of them.


Absolutely textbook case of antisemitism here.

First of all, the underlying predication that 'the jews' are a race with shared, essentialised characteristics.

Second of all that those essentialised characteristics are highly prejorative. For example:

In every country and down the ages, the Jew has turned to commerce and has worked with money; they [97] are a strictly commercial and urban people and have shown little interest in agriculture, except lately under the Zionist Movement in Palestine. To their extremely materialistic tendencies they have added a great sense of the beautiful and an artistic conception which has added much to the world of art; they have ever been the patrons of the beautiful, and have also been amongst the world's great philanthropists and this in spite of undesirable and devious business methods, which have made them greatly disliked and mistrusted in the world of business.

To find this enlightening, interesting and good demonstrates an astonishing ignorance about recent (i.e. 19th and 20th century) European history of antisemitic propaganda.

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Re: Israel, Palestine, Antisemitism

Postby theanarchist » Fri May 16, 2014 12:33 am

tobes wrote:[b]In every country and down the ages, the Jew has turned to commerce and has worked with money



Because in Europe they were not allowed to own land or work as an artisan. They had the international connection to other jewish communities and were mostly literate, so international trade was a reasonable option to make a living. A lot of jews were very poor though.
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