Dzogchen, karma and ultimate truth

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Re: Uncertain Minds: How the West Misunderstands Buddhism

Postby oushi » Tue May 07, 2013 8:07 am

Teachings and interpretations that does not directly focus on cessation of dukkha, are just an echo of Dharma.

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Re: Uncertain Minds: How the West Misunderstands Buddhism

Postby oushi » Tue May 07, 2013 12:36 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:The Budha (and countless other realised beings).

How did they prove, that deluded being is not liberated after death?
Leaning on Buddha teachings, we can (and we do) believe in rebirth, but it is just a belief.
I do not really understand what you are saying here.

ok... what if there are tree gravity forces? One for matter, one for information/meaning, and one for awareness. Each of those forces is using other to shape/complicate itself. This would explain the incredible variety of life. Those three may be seen as physical world, samsara, and nirvana. Can you disprove it without saying that you don't believe it, because someone said it ain't so?

On the other hand. During last 200 years, the population of the world grew 7 times. What caused this incredible growth in great human birth? Reduction of animals? Why did the birth cycle reshape itself so profoundly, almost beyond belief from the reincarnation point of view.

gregkavarnos wrote:Dzogchen does not discard causality.

I, the supreme source, have no samaya commitment to keep,
for in the absence of cause and condition, endeavor is redundant.
I am spontaneity itself, so analysis is futile;
I am timeless awareness, so knowledge is vanity;
I am self-sprung, so causes and conditions are unavailing;
I am undiscriminating, so renunciation and self-discipline are pointless:
I am unreal and 'Absence' is my name.
...
To reveal the purpose and necessity:
Innumerable aeons ago
some ati-yogins with good fortune and karmic connection,
with faith in me, the supreme source, and in my total presence,
perceived that there was no view to cultivate, no commitment to keep,
no ideal conduct to strive in, no path to tread,
no climbing spiritual levels, no karmic cause and effect,
no duality of ultimate and relative truth,
and nothing to cultivate in meditation,
and seeing that there was no mind to develop and no remedy
they saw the nature of my mind:
this revelation is necessary for those like them!
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Re: Uncertain Minds: How the West Misunderstands Buddhism

Postby oushi » Tue May 07, 2013 1:25 pm

Simon E. wrote:Oushi...you should have stayed with gnomic Zennisms.
You have exposed yourself.

Whatever that means... Why did you feel the need to publicly present your view on me, that is in no way related to the stuff discussed here? I appreciate your opinion, and I am eager to know more details, but I think we can take in to PM. :smile:
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Re: Uncertain Minds: How the West Misunderstands Buddhism

Postby Simon E. » Tue May 07, 2013 1:35 pm

Its entirely related to the stuff here.
You have shown that your knowledge of Dzogchen is erroneous. Normally your short mysterious replies are ambiguous.



And apart from those from mods I dont do PM's.
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Re: Uncertain Minds: How the West Misunderstands Buddhism

Postby oushi » Tue May 07, 2013 1:47 pm

Simon E. wrote:Oushi...you should have stayed with gnomic Zennisms.
You have exposed yourself.

Simon E. wrote:Its entirely related to the stuff here.

Damn, you will have to make a graphical representation, because I have no idea how is that related to the topic. If you don't use PM, then created another topic where you can blame it all on me :smile: . Why trash this one with personal stuff?
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Re: Uncertain Minds: How the West Misunderstands Buddhism

Postby Sherab Dorje » Tue May 07, 2013 2:21 pm

oushi wrote:How did they prove, that deluded being is not liberated after death?
Leaning on Buddha teachings, we can (and we do) believe in rebirth, but it is just a belief.
How many of the materialists have shown that there view is supported and what is the evidence? Tell you what: you can trust (believe) what Batchlor (and his buddies) says and I will trust (believe) what the Buddha and other realised beings said and when Yama comes to visit we will compare notes. Deal?
ok... what if there are tree gravity forces? One feor matter, one for information/meaning, and one for awareness. Each of those forces is using other to shape/complicate itself. This would explain the incredible variety of life. Those three may be seen as physical world, samsara, and nirvana. Can you disprove it without saying that you don't believe it, because someone said it ain't so?
i still do not understand what you are trying to say here.
On the other hand. During last 200 years, the population of the world grew 7 times. What caused this incredible growth in great human birth? Reduction of animals? Why did the birth cycle reshape itself so profoundly, almost beyond belief from the reincarnation point of view.
You see, this is what happens when you cherry pick a complete system. Rebirth can also occur from the other four realms (hell, preta, deva, asura) and beings reborn on the planet earth do not necessarily have to come from the planet earth (though, due to karmic connections, it is more likely).
I, the supreme source, have no samaya commitment to keep, ... this revelation is necessary for those like them!
This is referring to the uncaused nature of liberation, not to a lack of causality per se.
Did you miss this bit?
...some ati-yogins with good fortune and karmic connection...
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Uncertain Minds: How the West Misunderstands Buddhism

Postby CrawfordHollow » Tue May 07, 2013 4:20 pm

OK, then dzogchen doesn't discard the idea of causality either. The laws of karma and causality are exactly the same in the dzogchen teachings as they are in the so called lower vehicles. This is way off topic, but this has been a misconception of the teachings for centuries. There is the story of Patrul Rinpcohe giving dzogchen teachings. A butcher or hunter ( can't remember exactly) overheard and thought that he was free to continue killing animals because the dzogchen teachings apparently "discards" the idea of karma. Of course, when Patrul discovered this he set the man straight. As Guru Rinpoche himself taught, our conduct remains as refined as flour while our view is as high as the sky.
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Re: Uncertain Minds: How the West Misunderstands Buddhism

Postby oushi » Tue May 07, 2013 4:35 pm

CrawfordHollow wrote:OK, then dzogchen doesn't discard the idea of causality either.

The difference between negating and discarding is huge, but you seem to share the same view toward both. I am not willing to go into the subject, mostly because of such attitude. From the sources concerning the subject that are available in the net, I can advise reading this: http://www.keithdowman.net/dzogchen/old_man_basking_in_the_sun.htm
There you can read Longchenpa commentaries explaining this issue. Causality requires duality (cause and effect), where non-duality lies in the root of the teaching.
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Re: Uncertain Minds: How the West Misunderstands Buddhism

Postby Sherab Dorje » Tue May 07, 2013 4:50 pm

Well, if that is what your guru taught you about Dzogchen, then who are we to question it?

This is what your guru teaches you, right?
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Uncertain Minds: How the West Misunderstands Buddhism

Postby CrawfordHollow » Tue May 07, 2013 5:59 pm

Oushi,

The root of dzogchen teaching is recognizing the non-duality. First the non-dual state needs to be pointed out by a teacher, and then you must integrate that knowledge through the path. Until one is completely integrated 24/7 in rigpa they are still under the influence of cause and effect. There is not a dzogchen teacher out there who would discard the idea of karma. Keith Dowman is also the last person out there that I would quote as an authority on this. In the words of a very qualified translator his works are more of interpretations than translations. I am sorry, and I know that I going to sound like a snob, but this is the problem of trying to "practice" dzogchen without a teacher. You can tell me that my attitude is wrong all you want, but this is coming straight from the mouths of my teachers, such as Namkahi Norbu Rinpoche and Ontul Rinpoche. Like I said, the very fact that you are in a human body and that body is changing moment to moment, month to month, and year to year is proof that you are under the influence of cause and effect. Where in the dzogchen teachings is this "discarded?"
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Re: Uncertain Minds: How the West Misunderstands Buddhism

Postby oushi » Tue May 07, 2013 6:03 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:I did not say this. But let's say I did, what is your theory (and please try to express it in an understandable manner, I know English is not your primary language, so please feel free to take your time) as to how/why this happened?

I can agree with this:
"During the European Agricultural and Industrial Revolutions, the life expectancy of children increased dramatically. The percentage of the children born in London who died before the age of five decreased from 74.5% in 1730–1749 to 31.8% in 1810–1829. Between 1700 and 1900, Europe’s population increased from about 100 million to over 400 million.
...
Population growth in the West became more rapid after the introduction of compulsory vaccination and improvements in medicine and sanitation. -Wikipedia"

(do you understand, or shall I rewrite?).

Now, can you give us your theory? thx
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Re: Uncertain Minds: How the West Misunderstands Buddhism

Postby oushi » Tue May 07, 2013 6:18 pm

CrawfordHollow wrote:Oushi,

The root of dzogchen teaching is recognizing the non-duality. First the non-dual state needs to be pointed out by a teacher, and then you must integrate that knowledge through the path. Until one is completely integrated 24/7 in rigpa they are still under the influence of cause and effect. There is not a dzogchen teacher out there who would discard the idea of karma. Keith Dowman is also the last person out there that I would quote as an authority on this. In the words of a very qualified translator his works are more of interpretations than translations.

It always goes that way...
Like I said, the very fact that you are in a human body and that body is changing moment to moment, month to month, and year to year is proof that you are under the influence of cause and effect. Where in the dzogchen teachings is this "discarded?"

In what part of a human body can "I" be found? And even if I am in that body, how does it prove that I undergo change? If you put a diamond is a wooden box, how will rotting of it prove that the diamond is influenced by cause and effect? This is just to show how missed your statement is, I do not believe in any diamond in a box. At least, I can understand why some teaching are being kept secret. Some people would simply go nuts on hearing them.
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Re: Uncertain Minds: How the West Misunderstands Buddhism

Postby Simon E. » Tue May 07, 2013 6:20 pm

Que ?
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Re: Uncertain Minds: How the West Misunderstands Buddhism

Postby CrawfordHollow » Tue May 07, 2013 6:21 pm

OK

To give you the benefit of the doubt I looked to see what Longchenpa had to say. He says this:

What is the reason for the various occurrences of happiness and suffering to every individual while wandering in painful existence? It is because of karma. The fruit of different karmas, composed of different causal conditions, of each individual being ripened in the form of various migrations and resources, as well as happy and painful experiences.

Such foolish and arrogant people who do not know the various meanings of the Dharma say, "There is no karma and no effects of karma. In suchness there is nothing. It is like space," and they abandon virtuous deeds and indulge in evil deeds. Those are nihilists and not followers of the Dharma.

Longchenpa, Chapter 4 Shingta Chenpo

He goes on for many pages explaining the different types of karma and how they form. He concludes by saying:

After having ascertained the meditation by realizing the view, it is necessary to contemplate in the meditative state. Otherwise, one will not achieve liberation from the hosts of emotional defilements and will not perfect the stages and the paths. So it is certain that one should practice meditation.

So cause and effect are very much apart of all of the Buddhist teachings, including Dzogchen. Are you really sure that Longchenpa "discards" cause and effect Oushi?
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Re: Uncertain Minds: How the West Misunderstands Buddhism

Postby CrawfordHollow » Tue May 07, 2013 6:24 pm

Just because there is no inherent existence to your body does not mean that is does not change. In fact, the very nature of impermanence and cause and effect shows that there is no "I" in your body. If what you are trying to say is that karma has no inherent existence then you are correct, but that doesn't mean that deluded beings are not under the influence of cause and effect, even if that it is all just a big show of illusion. Your body does change, it ages, grows old and dies. This change may not have true existence, yet it still appears. We are bound by those appearances, that is called samsara. You are welcome to believe whatever you wish, Oushi. But the dzogchen teachings speak for themselves.
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Re: Uncertain Minds: How the West Misunderstands Buddhism

Postby Sherab Dorje » Tue May 07, 2013 6:25 pm

You are merely describing yet another one of the conditions for population growth. You will not see me disagreeing. And what was a formative factor for this condition arising?
Now, can you give us your theory? thx
Already have. Twice. It is called (and is the answer to the previous question I asked you)...
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Uncertain Minds: How the West Misunderstands Buddhism

Postby oushi » Tue May 07, 2013 7:10 pm

CrawfordHollow wrote:Just because there is no inherent existence to your body does not mean that is does not change. In fact, the very nature of impermanence and cause and effect shows that there is no "I" in your body. If what you are trying to say is that karma has no inherent existence then you are correct, but that doesn't mean that deluded beings are not under the influence of cause and effect, even if that it is all just a big show of illusion.

If causality is only a big illusion, does it influence anything at all? I would assume that it deludes, but cannot influence anything directly. Going further I would ask, what is this being? Is it something different then this big illusion? No, so even this delusion is a fiction, a part of the show. Change is relative, if there is no reference point, then what? If you take the self as a reference point, then you have entire show started. But why would you take that illusory self as a reference point?
You are welcome to believe whatever you wish, Oushi.

According to my beliefs, all beliefs are aimless like blind man. No view is satisfying. Maybe just by coincidence, it goes hand in hand with what I read in Longchenpas teachings. If it all boils down, entire Buddhism becomes fault, although most helpful in heating the pot. Dzogchen is compassionate, so it has teaching for all kinds of people. Clever, less gifted with intelligence, and the middling (borrowed from Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche). You can go through his "Rainbow Painting" (if I am not mistaken), from which you can deduce to which of those three groups did you teacher assign you. You will see how those teachings differ from each other.
But the dzogchen teachings speak for themselves.

Because it is a path, not a ultimate view, it changes responding to abilities of a student. Not a secret, it can also be read in the book.

gregkavarnos wrote:You are merely describing yet another one of the conditions for population growth. You will not see me disagreeing. And what was a formative factor for this condition arising? I'm having a hard time connecting vaccination with pretas.
Now, can you give us your theory? thx
Already have. Twice. It is called (and is the answer to the previous question I asked you)...

So, is it popular growth or invasion from another planet? Or maybe popular growth is a cause of this invasion, or invasion was caused by popular growth?
gregkavarnos wrote:Rebirth can also occur from the other four realms (hell, preta, deva, asura) and beings reborn on the planet earth do not necessarily have to come from the planet earth (though, due to karmic connections, it is more likely).
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Re: Uncertain Minds: How the West Misunderstands Buddhism

Postby Sherab Dorje » Tue May 07, 2013 7:17 pm

oushi wrote:According to my beliefs, all beliefs are aimless like blind man. No view is satisfying.
The Buddha taught Right View.
So, is it popular growth or invasion from another planet? Or maybe popular growth is a cause of this invasion, or invasion was caused by popular growth?
You are talking nonsense, this conversation is over.
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Uncertain Minds: How the West Misunderstands Buddhism

Postby oushi » Tue May 07, 2013 7:19 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:
oushi wrote:According to my beliefs, all beliefs are aimless like blind man. No view is satisfying.
The Buddha taught Right View.

And TNH said, "All views are wrong views". What will you do? Maybe, just maybe, that is the right view. Have you thought about it?
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Re: Uncertain Minds: How the West Misunderstands Buddhism

Postby Sherab Dorje » Tue May 07, 2013 7:33 pm

TNH?
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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