The practices of the base of santi maha sangha

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Re: The practices of the base of santi maha sangha

Postby Malcolm » Sun Jun 15, 2014 12:43 am

thewhiterussia wrote:Dear people,

According to the instructions for the practices of the base level of santi maha sangha one day of practice corresponds to four thuns. Does anybody know how long is one thun supposed to be?

Many thanks



Traditionally, three hours, practically, two.
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Re: The practices of the base of santi maha sangha

Postby oldbob » Thu Jun 19, 2014 4:21 am

Malcolm wrote:
thewhiterussia wrote:Dear people,

According to the instructions for the practices of the base level of santi maha sangha one day of practice corresponds to four thuns. Does anybody know how long is one thun supposed to be?

Many thanks



Traditionally, three hours, practically, two.


:namaste: Good answers all.

I think it also depends on the individual - if practice comes naturally to you and you are comfortable, then starting with 2 or 3 hour tuns is fine.

If you have a negative reaction then ease off until you are comfortable. Having a negative reaction and quitting is not the goal. Many times of short sessions works best for some people.

I think 5 - 10 minute tuns are just fine for some people who would feel forced / stressed, or be put outside their comfort zones, if longer times were attempted.

The key point is to work with circumstances, never to force yourself, and to relax and be comfortable and natural with whatever practice you are doing. Then you can slowly build up the time, as you relax into the practice.

No one ever did practice to feel bad.

ob,
PS When i was youngbob i could do 6, 2 hour tuns a day. 6-8, 9-11, 12-1, 2-4, 5-7, and 8-10, which left time for clean-up and a walk or two, but that was what was comfortable for me, and this should not be taken as an example for anyone else. If you have a question about this it is better to ask the boss.
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Re: The practices of the base of santi maha sangha

Postby heart » Thu Jun 19, 2014 5:40 am

Good point oldbob, even if the standard is 2-3 hours a beginner will have to start with very short sessions and work slowly and in a very relaxed way to make the sessions longer over a number of years probably. That is how it was for me. My master always said "quality not quantity", I am very grateful for that.

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Re: The practices of the base of santi maha sangha

Postby Clarence » Thu Jun 19, 2014 9:01 pm

Bob,

I was wondering how much time you spend in formal meditation these days. Seems like you have done a lot of practice and retreat. Now that you are a little older, how much are you still able to do?

Many thanks,

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Re: The practices of the base of santi maha sangha

Postby bryandavis » Wed Jun 25, 2014 12:56 pm

Greetings,

Since we are on the subject, I have a question to ask anyone who might be able to add some clarity to.

Regarding an instruction in the Base Level SMS book. page 271 in the edition I have or section is 7.3

Rinpoche is writing about how to apply Yantra in a daily practice. He says "After having learned them in a precise manner, you should choose as your regular practice the method of breathing that is most suited to your condition, and in the same way select from among the various series of five yantras five positions corresponding to the five types of holding..."

I have always thought that before working with a certain series of yantra one would engage in the particular pranayama associated with that series. The above seem to state that we can focus one particular pranayama, and one yantra of our choice for each hold that is appropriate for our situation. ( I know of course we must be familiar and have experience in the yogas and not just jump into it )

Or is this implying we must still work with the pranayamas for each series before engaging in the yantras for those series, but, focus more time on one pranayama in particular?

Thanks for any views on this.

Bryan.
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Re: The practices of the base of santi maha sangha

Postby T. Chokyi » Thu Jun 26, 2014 3:15 pm

Precious_Vase.jpg
Precious_Vase.jpg (17.76 KiB) Viewed 968 times
bryandavis wrote:
Regarding an instruction in the Base Level SMS book. page 271 in the edition I have or section is 7.3

Bryan.


*Reserved items are materials intended for the Dzogchen Community. In order to purchase this item one must be a current member of the Dzogchen Community, and must have received Transmission from Chogyal Namkhai Norbu.

Although those with DI can buy this book, and I take it you bought it because you are DC and received transmission, there are those without DI and who are not members of the DC who can't see it or discuss it until they do receive DI and become a member of DC, that is why it is *Reserved, so discussion of specifics on reserved items and on a public forum such as this, isn't too good an idea... discussion like that has been frowned upon in the past by CHNN, and with good reason imho, because restricted items and their instructions are for CHNN's students not for general public or for discussion on public forum, it is for DC and is intended that way, so discussion of Precious Vase, and Rinpoche's specific instructions for practice imho, should be done one on one with Rinpoche or with SMS instructors or with senior students who actually know, but in private, so if there are DC members who would answer this, imho it would be best if done privately in keeping with the master's instruction, unless it can be discussed in a very general way, and I'm not sure how that can happen with restricted materials, so maybe a private email to an instructor or to Pero (a senior student) etc...

There are instructors like Naomi Zeitz who are the kind of teachers for this that Bryan would want to direct a question like this too and her email address is right on the first page of the yantra yoga site:

http://www.yantrayoga.org/events/categories/naomi-zeitz/

I mean this sincerely with no "dharmacops" idea intended, its just that its better to get questions on restricted items and especially their practices and instructions in private.

Sincerely
T. Chokyi
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Re: The practices of the base of santi maha sangha

Postby bryandavis » Thu Jun 26, 2014 3:38 pm

I appologize for the above post. I did'nt think that question was getting into anything that was not available in the publc yantra book. Though I should have thought about the fact I was quoting from the SMS book.

I would ask then for any ADMIN to please delete my posting regarding the yantra question.
Thank you. :oops:

And I will try to use another resource since I have not got any reply or pm's.

Thanks and sorry!

Bryan.
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Re: The practices of the base of santi maha sangha

Postby T. Chokyi » Thu Jun 26, 2014 3:57 pm

bryandavis wrote:I appologize for the above post. I did'nt think that question was getting into anything that was not available in the publc yantra book. Though I should have thought about the fact I was quoting from the SMS book.

I would ask then for any ADMIN to please delete my posting regarding the yantra question.
Thank you. :oops:

And I will try to use another resource since I have not got any reply or pm's.

Thanks and sorry!

Bryan.


Please don't worry about it, you have a really good question, no need to feel apologetic about an authentic question like you have. :consoling:

Relax about apologies, my post is coming across stronger than I intended..only thing I wanted to point out is that "The Vase" is restricted ... so specific questions would best be private for instructions etc... but maybe you can try the Yantra Yoga site with the email there, or PM to senior student like Pero, he's got a good grip on everything imho.

:namaste:
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Re: The practices of the base of santi maha sangha

Postby oldbob » Sat Jun 28, 2014 8:29 pm

:namaste:

Good posts all! :bow: :bow: :bow:

On grips and gripes and cabbages and kings. :stirthepot: :soapbox:

Real Teachers speak on many levels to the recipients of their talks.

ChNNR is a Real Teacher and so teaches in this way. Five people may take away five different meanings from the same words.

You, yourself, may hear a different meaning, each time, when listening to the same teaching over many years.

What applies, and is useful, to one person does not apply or is useful to another. This is reality.

For some, "Dzogchen has no rules," makes perfect sense and they work with circumstances, respecting the dimensions of others.

Then everything is perfect as it is and there is never a possibility of breaking Samaya.

http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.ph ... 20#p127794" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;"

Others cringe at the thought of something secret being publicly revealed, that their teachers have told them to keep secret, so even saying a "secret" word is forbidden.

[When I first learned of ChNNR it wasin 1979, through seeing a poster that advertised he was teaching Dzogchen at Columbia University. My mind-set was that no one can study, or even hear the word Dzogchen, untill they finish Nundro and Lama, Yidim, Khandro practices. So I didn't go to hear him speak. Looking backwards, I feel that I was just limited by my strict view of things. I didn't get to meet Rinpoche until I prayed very hard to the Universe to meet a Teacher who fully integrated the Teachings into their daily life, then I was provided a free trip to the Sardinia retreat of 1980 and found what I was looking for.] :focus:

So some people don't hear, "Dzogchen has no rules," they hear, "you shouldn't make idle gossip about "secret"things on public web-sites like DW."

Each view is exactly correct because the truth about things is like trying to describe the part of the elephant that you are holding, as the entire elephant.

What is true and useful in one set of circumstances is not true and useful in another. That said, it is always wise to respect the limits of others.

"View wide as the sky and actions small a a mustard seed."

Teaching Togal openly, without the keys that unlock the practice could be harmful to someone's eyes - so Togal is never taught without the guidance that you never look directly in the sun. In the same way, the Dark Retreat is not taught without the guidance that you can stop any time you want, and that you should not push yourself beyond your limit.

There is no harm in mentioning the word Togal, or Dark Retreat, or a general qualification about these practices. If someone believes this, then they should follow their hearts and be happy with this as their path.

It becomes a little tricky when you have the responsibility to make a judgment call about removing or leaving in place, a post that quotes from a "restricted" book, you need to look at the big picture of what will do the most good or help the most people. I think the mods made the right decision to allow the quote from the "precious vase" because leaving it did no harm. There was nothing secret in the quote.

The "breathing" and YY tapes (unrestricted) show all the types of breathing. These have been taught openly in many retreats. Anyone showing up at a YY class, DI or not, specific lung or not, member or not, was freely given that information.

Then there is the issue of whether DW is a "public" space. To get to this post on DW, someone had to go to the DW Board Index, scroll down to the Bodhisattvacarya section, and then click on Dzogchen. This is at least 3 volitional acts. For me this demonstrates a "sincere interest." For me, showing a sincere interest is the qualification that allows for entry beyond the public level of things.

Up till just recently the DC ruling on whether someone could buy a restricted book or cd, was that you needed to be a "member" of the DC. This made sense because becoming a member was one way of showing a sincere interest. For many years, this is how it was. Then it was added that you had to have received the Longsal wong or have been present at a Lonsal retreat, on the subject of the book/ cd, in order to be able to buy a Longsal book - such as Mandarava.

I believe that this is the official pronouncement of Rinpoche. I've checked with other old-timers and they agree. Of course Rinpoche can change things any time he wants to.

[whether this corresponds to current practice in the many SSI stores is a separate matter.]

It should also be noted that anyone who can read Tibetan can access all of the "secret" teachings in their native language. So perhaps we should all go study Tibetan. :smile:

Long life to the Master - in good health and with success in all things. All good things for everybody.

ob
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Re: The practices of the base of santi maha sangha

Postby oldbob » Sun Jun 29, 2014 2:38 am

To clarify:

I have no gripe with anything that ChNNR does. If any rulings on transmission come from him then I support these wholeheartedly. Sometimes well-meaning functionaries mis-interpret his open-hearted intention and this is my gripe.

Again, my understanding is that it is currently the ruling of ChNNR that anyone who is a member can buy any restricted book / cd, except the Longsal books / cds. To be able to buy the Longsal books cds, it is necessary to have received the Longsal Wang Transmission, OR be present at a Longsal retreat where that specific Longsal Teaching was given.

Yes, I have written to Rinpoche asking him to clarify this and to publicly state his policy on who can purchase what, and under what conditions. I will let you know if I hear anything back.

Further - unless a Dzogchen practice is informed by instant presence it is not a Dzogchen practice.

Further - any practice if informed by instant presence, is a Dzogchen practice.

This is why Guru Yoga (in the Dzogchen use of this phrase) signifying being in the state of instant presence (not instant pretense :smile: ) is the single primary practice of Dzogchen and the Dzogchen Community. All of the other more than 120 practices, as taught in the more than 560 retreats of ChNNR, are secondary practices.

In Dzogchen this is sometimes symbolized by a sewing needle, meaning one point. I once gave a katah and a very carefully wrapped needle to HH Dilgo Khentse Rinpoche. He smiled his beautiful smile. Not that I know anything but I certainly know how to pretend and sometimes have a little sense of humor.

Back to the topic.

All of this relates to the practices of the base of Santi Maha Sangha because ANYONE who is a member can buy the book, "The Precious Vase," and study the base Teachings and practices of the SMS. Study is an intellectual exercise. To practice the practices of the base of the SMS, you are employing the intellect to go beyond the intellect. Hence the need to have the transmission of these practices from a Master and have the intellect informed by non-dual instant presence.

Again, you do NOT /NOT have to have the transmission of, "The Precious Vase" before purchasing that, or any other, "Restricted" book, except for the Longsal texts, which require transmission before buying.

While I have NO PRETENSION of having any sort of grip what-so-ever, I have been practicing in the DC since 1980 and attended 3-4 retreats a year since then.

In fact you can call someone, Mr. No-grip, if you want to praise someone, because the meaning of Treg Chod - the Dzogchen view, can be loosely translated as "no grip."

:smile:

If you were to see all your thoughts and emotions, etc. as tied up in a tight bundle of interlocking definitions, judgments, and arguments, and then you cut that cord of the thinking mind - and relax into what remains - this is one simile of how to enter instant presence. But to say, No Grip, let alone to claim No Grip, is a grip, and so without naming it as such, in Dzogchen, you really have no capacity to say, or claim anything.

:smile:

and - this is the real meaning of "No Grip, No Gripe" because, in Dzogchen, everything is actually perfectly OK just as it is, grips, gripes, etc.

and so I pray from my heart that all the members of the DC, and all the non-members too, should find themselves in the luminous unlimited space of no grip - no gripe.

:twothumbsup: :buddha1: :twothumbsup:

Long life to the Dzogchen Masters - in good health and with success in all things. All good things to everyone.

:heart:
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Re: The practices of the base of santi maha sangha

Postby Jikan » Wed Jul 09, 2014 3:52 pm

Please note that many posts have been removed from this thread, and some of the ones that have been restored to it have been edited to correspond to DW policy.

We want to encourage well-rounded discussion of Dharma practice, teaching, and organizations as best we can. However, we don't allow discussions of internal practices of any Buddhist organization here at DW, including Dzogchen Community.

If any user would like to discuss such matters online, he or she is advised to find an appropriate venue for such discussion. A blog might do the trick.

Please continue this important discussion within the scope of the Terms of Service. Thank you.
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Re: The practices of the base of santi maha sangha

Postby MalaBeads » Thu Jul 10, 2014 5:09 pm

oldbob wrote:


ChNNR is a Real Teacher and so teaches in this way. Five people may take away five different meanings from the same words.

You, yourself, may hear a different meaning, each time, when listening to the same teaching over many years.

What applies, and is useful, to one person does not apply or is useful to another. This is reality.

For some, "Dzogchen has no rules," makes perfect sense and they work with circumstances


This is all quite true but what are those circumstances? They are the conditions of your own body/speech/mind, not someone else's body/speech/mind. That is why it is so important, especially after introduction, to look inside and see whats there, whats stuck, whats unfinished, what needs a little work, etc. etc. No one is finished, no one is complete at the time of introduction. And I really mean no one. If you think your sh*t doesnt smell! or worse yet! that you dont have any sh* t, think again. Everyone comes into this life with conditions. Otherwise, we wouldn't come into this life anymore.

End of small rant.
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Re: The practices of the base of santi maha sangha

Postby alpha » Thu Jul 10, 2014 7:12 pm

oldbob wrote:To clarify:

If you were to see all your thoughts and emotions, etc. as tied up in a tight bundle of interlocking definitions, judgments, and arguments, and then you cut that cord of the thinking mind - and relax into what remains - this is one simile of how to enter instant presence. But to say, No Grip, let alone to claim No Grip, is a grip, and so without naming it as such, in Dzogchen, you really have no capacity to say, or claim anything.



Most of the time after judgements, arguments , definitions have gone, what remains is not necessarily instant presence.
Not having thoughts and a busy mind doesn't necessarily mean that what is left is instant presence.

According to CNNr instant presence arises on its own, from its own side.So if one relaxes and the thoughts and mind business have gone it doesn't mean that while relaxing one would necessarily have instant presence.
Relaxation no matter how deep will not necessarily create de conditions for the instant presence to arise.
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Re: The practices of the base of santi maha sangha

Postby Andrew108 » Thu Jul 10, 2014 7:20 pm

I agree.
The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.
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Re: The practices of the base of santi maha sangha

Postby oldbob » Sun Jul 13, 2014 11:14 pm

:namaste:

:good: :twothumbsup:

Of course, and yes, yes to all the above, and so in Dzogchen you take Direct Introduction from a Master, and then deepen your experiance by "relaxing" into this state through practicing the secondary practices such as taught on the the SMS path, or through any of the more than 120 secondary practices as taught in the more than 550 retreats of ChNNR.

Back to the OP's original question, --- from the side of completing the requirements of the SMS, or any accumulation, you can talk about the length of time you sit on your cushion OR from the Dzogchen POV there is only one period of practice which could be spoken of as 24/7, but which is actually not spoken of at all.

From the Dzogchen POV the key point is to integrate, in instant presense, with whatever arises or doesn't arise, in a non-dual way, 24/7.

So attending to whatever arises or doesn't arise in your consciousness as integrated with instant presense is the never-ending Dzogchen tun; SMS, brushing your teeth, or sending silly incomprehensable posts to DW. :smile:

Informed by instant presense, anything you do, or don't do, is a tun.

Homage to the Masters. May they live long, in good health and with success in all things.

:heart:
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