Jes Bertelsen?

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Re: Jes Bertelsen?

Postby heart » Sun Aug 25, 2013 8:36 am

"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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Re: Jes Bertelsen?

Postby heart » Sun Aug 25, 2013 8:44 am

"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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Re: Jes Bertelsen?

Postby heart » Sun Aug 25, 2013 9:02 am

"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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florin
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Re: Jes Bertelsen?

Postby florin » Sun Aug 25, 2013 9:24 am

Magnus, referring to one of your earlier posts in this thread , what do you think is the difference between being authorized to teach dzogchen and being a fully qualified dzogchen teacher?
"Bow down to me for I thirst for an infinite ocean of blood, since the innumerable torrents of floods at kalpa's end that terrify all world systems do not even wet the tip of my tongue"

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Re: Jes Bertelsen?

Postby heart » Sun Aug 25, 2013 10:38 am

"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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Re: Jes Bertelsen?

Postby Pero » Sun Aug 25, 2013 11:11 am

Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
- Shabkar

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Re: Jes Bertelsen?

Postby heart » Sun Aug 25, 2013 11:20 am

"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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Re: Jes Bertelsen?

Postby Simon E. » Sun Aug 25, 2013 11:23 am

Clearly with regard to Dzogchen we are in a period of transition during which those who associate its transmission with particular structures and prerequisites are going to experience dissonance when presented with evidence that seems to contradict that conclusion.
" My heart's in the Highlands
my heart is not here.
My heart's in the Highlands
chasing the deer."

Robert V.C. Burns.

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Re: Jes Bertelsen?

Postby tingdzin » Sun Aug 25, 2013 11:44 am

I have no comment about this particular situation, because I don't know the man in question and haven't read him, but there was absolutely definitely a time when TUR taught that one should never claim to be a Dzogchen teacher without having first reached the stage and accomplishments of a siddha. I am well aware that many of the people who were present at his pointing-out instructions a long time ago and who now trace their "lineage" through him are in fact teaching what they call Dzogchen, so maybe there's something going on I don't know about.

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Re: Jes Bertelsen?

Postby heart » Sun Aug 25, 2013 12:41 pm

"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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Re: Jes Bertelsen?

Postby dzogchungpa » Sun Aug 25, 2013 3:01 pm

Through Dzogchen we can really understand what God is and we don’t have to worry if there is a God or not. God always exists as our real nature, the base, for everybody. - Chögyal Namkhai Norbu

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Re: Jes Bertelsen?

Postby heart » Sun Aug 25, 2013 4:11 pm

"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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Re: Jes Bertelsen?

Postby heart » Sun Aug 25, 2013 4:29 pm

"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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Re: Jes Bertelsen?

Postby Barney Fife » Sun Aug 25, 2013 5:33 pm

Quotes from "Essence of Mind: An Approach to Dzogchen" by Jes Bertelsen:

"There are many types of continuous exercises. They could be divided into two large main categories. One type is a kind of preparation for meditation: channeling exercises, circulation exercises, and the use of symbolic images (channeling and circulation exercises such as the pineal-hara or yin-yang-breathing described in Presence Meditation, symbols such as a flower or a candle or a yantra in a chakra). The second type is the quintessence of prayer, centered in the heart in the form of a mantra (such as Jesus Christ; Kyrie eleison, Kriste eleison; La illah il allah; Namo amida butsu)
(Kindle location 1122; p. 87)

"The other main reason that these continuous exercises are necessary is our dim Precambrian lethargy, with regard to achieving greater wakefulness. In the West, this feature has been accurately described as original sin. In the East it is called negative karma. These terms indicate that the sluggishness reaches beyond the personal and deeply into our collective hereditary backgrounds. It is a feature that is embedded in evolution itself, in our genes, in the collective unconscious."
(Kindle Location 1026-130; p.80).

"It is self-evidently true that the great enlightened ones on this earth eliminate original sin and negative karma. But it is just as self-evident-- and we all see this, every day in the media-- that this does not help in the least unless each of us as individuals help the process along, with psychotherapy, ethics, prayer, meditation, and continuous exercises.
Even though this earth has seen a long line of radiant, enlightened teachers (Rumi, Krishna, Buddha, Christ, Francis, Rabia, Meera, Yeshe Tsogyel, Teresa, etc.), and even though each of them, according to their individual capacity and caliber, takes on original sin and purifies it for all the rest of us, this does not help one bit unless each individual lends a hand, too. Frankly, the world has not become a better place, and people have not improved, since the Buddha and the Christ. Rather the opposite-- when seen from the ordinary levels of consciousness.
Even though there are one billion Christians on the planet, and Christ has accepted the total load of original sin for all these one billion Christians, it doesn't work. It is only when the individual does his share of the work (psychotherapy, prayer, ethical behavior, meditation, and continuous exercises) that it turns out, again and again, that at the right moment, when the mystery opens, the enlightened consciousness has already purified the negative karma and has taken and forgiven the original sin. But this divine function can only unfold when the individual human being has prepared himself or herself through existential transformation.
The old teachers bear witness to the divine power of enlightened consciousness to eliminate original sin and negative karma for oneself and others.
Master Eckhart speaks in the West:
"Indeed, you might well turn away quickly and in a short time from all sins, so strongly and with such true revulsion, and turn so strongly to God that, though you had committed all the sins that ever were or shall be since Adam's time, they would all be forgiven you, together with the punishment for them...."
Master Tulku Urgyen speaks in the East:
"One moment in the purest rigpa can eliminate the accumulation of negative karma from a whole lifetime, or even from several lifetimes.""
(Kindle Locations 1046-1064; p.81-82)

"Up to this point in the book, the description of the spiritual developmental process all the way to the process of enlightenment has been kept within the context of one lifetime, namely the present one. And-- as it is emphasized for instance in both Christian and Tibetan mysticism-- experience does show that it is possible for a person to realize the enlightenment process in one lifetime. However, Indian spiritual traditions (such as Vedanta, Jainism, Mahayana), among others, maintain that the process of spiritual enlightenment usually extends over several lifetimes, and that it is embedded in a more impersonal overarching developmental continuum. This development includes the process of the self through the progressive karma, as well as the collective karmic process at the level of joint consciousness."
(Kindle Location 1368-1374; p.106)

Would anyone be kind enough to offer some incisive Dzogchen commentary on the above passages of Jes Bertelsen's teachings? Possibly Malcolm, or someone with knowledge of the Dzogchen teachings? Thanks!

b.f.

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Re: Jes Bertelsen?

Postby Malcolm » Sun Aug 25, 2013 5:40 pm





འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


Free of hope and fear, relax.
Human life spent in
a state of great spaciousness is enjoyable.


— Kunzang Dechen Lingpa

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Re: Jes Bertelsen?

Postby Barney Fife » Sun Aug 25, 2013 5:54 pm

Thank you Malcolm, that's very interesting, as usual. Karma and original sin........hmmmm.....? wondering if the idea of original sin is similar to the idea of "ignorance" in dzogchen......and if Dzogchen thinks that teachers like Jesus removed all the negative karma from all Christians, or that other teachers removed all the negative karma from followers of their teachings? Don't want to keep bugging you Malcolm, if you are busy, but just always wondered about this, if anyone has any teachings on the subject.

b.f.

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Re: Jes Bertelsen?

Postby dzogchungpa » Sun Aug 25, 2013 5:58 pm

Through Dzogchen we can really understand what God is and we don’t have to worry if there is a God or not. God always exists as our real nature, the base, for everybody. - Chögyal Namkhai Norbu

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Re: Jes Bertelsen?

Postby kirtu » Sun Aug 25, 2013 5:59 pm



"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche

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Re: Jes Bertelsen?

Postby Malcolm » Sun Aug 25, 2013 6:11 pm





འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


Free of hope and fear, relax.
Human life spent in
a state of great spaciousness is enjoyable.


— Kunzang Dechen Lingpa

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Re: Jes Bertelsen?

Postby Adamantine » Sun Aug 25, 2013 6:31 pm

Ok, things need to be cleaned up and sorted out here.. bear with us.. back shortly. Temporarily locked.
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha


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