Dharma Wheel

smcj wrote: I can't remember where I heard it, but I believe that I've heard of people (tulkus mostly, but others as well) getting the pointing out instructions, becoming enlightened, and then going off to do retreat on Vajrayana practices. Why? Not to become more enlightened, they've already done that. But because having mastered Vajrayana practice they have capabilities to help others that a Dzogchenpa would not. So it is not as if Dzogchen has the entire value of, say HYT.

Plus there are other people, like Theravadans, that have karmic scenarios where Dzogchen would not be the appropriate medicine for their illness. So it depends on the situation. If Dzogchen was the only practice that was necessary for everyone, it would have been the only practice that was ever taught. As they say there are 84,000 different teachings for 84,000 different scenarios, but I'd be surprised if anybody ever really counted them all.

My point was not to denigrate any of the other gates of dharma practice. This posting is in the Dzogchen forum and deals specifically with a Dzogchen topic. What I meant to say is that I have met many sincere practitioners that talk of not being "ready" for practicing properly because of a feeling that one can't possibly realize anything without having completed ngondro, a three-year retreat, etc. though they have already received pointing-out instructions. This to me seems to be a cultural relic of our own education system here where one is expected to climb the ladder of post-graduate studies.

The only capabilities to help others that practicing Vajrayana would give would be to give transmission of Vajrayana practices, no? There is nothing missing in the three kayas of a buddha, however arrived at. Am I missing something?

Pointing-out is anyway just the beginning of Dzogchen practice. There is no problem combining Dzogchen practice with any other practice like ngondro, lodjong, hyt or whatever.

/magnus

heart wrote:Pointing-out is anyway just the beginning of Dzogchen practice. There is no problem combining Dzogchen practice with any other practice like ngondro, lodjong, hyt or whatever.

/magnus

Absolutely. In fact all other practices become more profound by doing so. Again, I wasn't saying that other practices are unnecessary. Simply that I have noticed that many of my friends don't give themselves permission to relax.

Karma Dorje wrote:

heart wrote:Pointing-out is anyway just the beginning of Dzogchen practice. There is no problem combining Dzogchen practice with any other practice like ngondro, lodjong, hyt or whatever.

/magnus

Absolutely. In fact all other practices become more profound by doing so. Again, I wasn't saying that other practices are unnecessary. Simply that I have noticed that many of my friends don't give themselves permission to relax.

True, this is why it is very valuable to have a Guru that actually encourage and insist on you taking that leap.

/magnus

The only capabilities to help others that practicing Vajrayana would give would be to give transmission of Vajrayana practices, no?

Here's a quote from Kunga R.'s into to "Drinking the Mountain Stream":

Realization of voidness isn't the only result in the completion phase, for, owing to the previous production phase the yogin is endowed with powers and method as well.

I believe he is referring to siddhis and such.

Many excellent posts.

We practice to become enlightened.
Ref the siddhis / skillful means, resulting from practice, perhaps these are the "spare change" of the the benefits of practice and not the goal.
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Just woke up from a long after-lunch nap. I am an old guy. Naps-r-us.

It's one of those days in Tuscany when the sky is touching the earth. Looking out my window is like a Chinese painting with olive trees blurry in the heavy mist. Beyond a short distance everything is mist. Sheep graze, in the near meadow, white blurry forms moving in the white mist. It's nice & cozy but I know it will get cold later and I will need to light a fire. Luckily I have an inside store of dry firewood that the mist has not penetrated. Just have to clean all the junk away from the pot bellied stove. The lightning storms have not knocked out the electricity, today, and I can connect the computer. Amazingly my radio connection goes right through the mist and reaches Dharma Wheel. Hooray for technology. ET phone home.

So what does all of this blah blah have to do with rigpa vs. nature of mind? Good question.

Looking out the window (with awareness / instant presence) is nature of mind, even if I/you don't look. Observing yourself, (in a non-dual way) looking out the window, or observing not looking (in instant presence) is rigpa. Being the mist and the fuzzy olive trees, and the observer, both without name, are the non-dual appearances, the display of the natural mind. In the clarity and luminosity of instant presence, everything is perfected: everything is OK, just as it is.

Relaxing into this, there is nothing to say or to be done, and the question of “Nature of Mind / Rigpa” dissolves into contemplation: yet saying everything and doing everything is also OK.

For anyone engaged in striving (seeking anything: power, money, good health, gain, praise, fame, and happiness, love, etc. (especially the etc.)) you can say to them that the dharma bozo, old bob, says that the first step beyond this endless activity, is to just relax. Constant struggle, and burn out, in the red dust of the world isn't helpful in solving the problems of life. Letting go of everything, in contemplation, even just for a moment, provides a base of unattached awareness / energy from which all actions can be more easily accomplished. Just stop and relax, sinking into this stopping. Just stop (with unintentional awareness).


Look out the window; observe yourself (non-dual) looking out the window, even for a moment, (maybe make some tea) observe a gentle breath, and then attend to what needs doing, with that doing / attendance, informed by the empty space of that stopping / observing. Then you are that empty space combined with your activity. With that perspective, things are different and you have changed, and everything is much lighter.

Then accept that whatever appears to mind, body, emotion, is just fine, as it is. Relaxing into this, is the natural mind. Being aware of this, in a non-dual way, is rigpa.

God post oldbob, ultimately this isn't a intellectual thing. We need to find confidence in what was pointed out, or else we will be endlessly searching.

/magnus

Karma Dorje wrote:

heart wrote:Pointing-out is anyway just the beginning of Dzogchen practice. There is no problem combining Dzogchen practice with any other practice like ngondro, lodjong, hyt or whatever.

/magnus

Absolutely. In fact all other practices become more profound by doing so. Again, I wasn't saying that other practices are unnecessary. Simply that I have noticed that many of my friends don't give themselves permission to relax.

I'll say it.
The other practices are optional extras. Life style choices.
Been there. Stopped that. Gave away the tee-shirt.
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