More diverse than what most people can possibly imagine, but I don't think we are getting somewhere. Rather we are getting in a territory which is totally unproductive, because I do not have any kind of perceived authority. These questions should be asked to Norbu Rinpoche and others, who have made such statements, and whose word actually means something for Dharma practitioners. He knows a lot about this and I am sure he will share openly much information if he feels that the audience is mature enough. Arranging this second part may be tricky but probably not that impossible during one of his retreats.dzogchungpa wrote:OK, now we're getting somewhere. Can you tell us something about what life on these other planets is like?Ivo wrote:Well, I guess that saying that I have will still rank lower than the other things I do on my insanity certification card, so the answer is "yes".dzogchungpa wrote:Well, did you or didn't you? I'm not asking you to prove it.
Dzogchen practiced on different solar systems?
Re: Dzogchen practiced on different solar systems?
- dzogchungpa
- Posts: 6333
- Joined: Sat May 28, 2011 10:50 pm
Re: Dzogchen practiced on different solar systems?
Aren't you a lama?Ivo wrote:Rather we are getting in a territory which is totally unproductive, because I do not have any kind of perceived authority.
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche
Re: Dzogchen practiced on different solar systems?
For a limited number of people I may be in this role, but what I do is very controversial and I can not serve here as any kind of authority. As this topic of discussion is quite serious and has a lot of implications it will be meaningful only if some "universally" accepted teacher comes forward with some clear statements. Norbu Rinpoche has given the first hints, as is usual for him, and it is up to his students to pick it up from there and ask for a more detailed explanation. If he sees it beneficial in furthering someones' practice I am sure he will expand on the topic, at least in front of limited audience. If he feels that it is just some form of unhealthy curiosity he might not. It may not be very easy for someone to ask him this question in a serious and down-to-earth manner, but since there are very few masters with his level of attainment and knowledge, it will always be good to try.dzogchungpa wrote:Aren't you a lama?Ivo wrote:Rather we are getting in a territory which is totally unproductive, because I do not have any kind of perceived authority.
- dzogchungpa
- Posts: 6333
- Joined: Sat May 28, 2011 10:50 pm
Re: Dzogchen practiced on different solar systems?
What kind of implications are you referring to?Ivo wrote:As this topic of discussion is quite serious and has a lot of implications it will be meaningful only if some "universally" accepted teacher comes forward with some clear statements.
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche
Re: Dzogchen practiced on different solar systems?
Well... think for yourself what it would mean if a certain Buddha field from which a certain doctrine is said to have originated can be correlated to a physically observable place in our universe. The implications are more than what most Dharma practitioners will be able to handle comfortably.dzogchungpa wrote:What kind of implications are you referring to?Ivo wrote:As this topic of discussion is quite serious and has a lot of implications it will be meaningful only if some "universally" accepted teacher comes forward with some clear statements.
- dzogchungpa
- Posts: 6333
- Joined: Sat May 28, 2011 10:50 pm
Re: Dzogchen practiced on different solar systems?
Personally, I would find that very interesting. I don't see why that would make someone uncomfortable.Ivo wrote:Well... think for yourself what it would mean if a certain Buddha field from which a certain doctrine is said to have originated can be correlated to a physically observable place in our universe. The implications are more than what most Dharma practitioners will be able to handle comfortably.dzogchungpa wrote:What kind of implications are you referring to?Ivo wrote:As this topic of discussion is quite serious and has a lot of implications it will be meaningful only if some "universally" accepted teacher comes forward with some clear statements.
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche
Re: Dzogchen practiced on different solar systems?
Good for you.dzogchungpa wrote:Personally, I would find that very interesting. I don't see why that would make someone uncomfortable.Ivo wrote: Well... think for yourself what it would mean if a certain Buddha field from which a certain doctrine is said to have originated can be correlated to a physically observable place in our universe. The implications are more than what most Dharma practitioners will be able to handle comfortably.
Re: Dzogchen practiced on different solar systems?
Well, the present day origin of Dzogchen teaching can be correlated to a physically identifiable place in the Universe and we are located on it. Otherwise, since most Mahāyāna practitioners who are familiar with the accounts of the universe, for example, as presented in the opening chapters of the Avatamska sutras will have no problem with the idea of the existence of planets in other solar systems and civilizations which exist in them. Nor for that matter will Star Wars fans be that suprised:Ivo wrote:Well... think for yourself what it would mean if a certain Buddha field from which a certain doctrine is said to have originated can be correlated to a physically observable place in our universe. The implications are more than what most Dharma practitioners will be able to handle comfortably.dzogchungpa wrote:What kind of implications are you referring to?Ivo wrote:As this topic of discussion is quite serious and has a lot of implications it will be meaningful only if some "universally" accepted teacher comes forward with some clear statements.
In any case, the first chapter of the sgra thal gyur identifies 13 buddhafields where Dzogchen is practiced. The introduction to the The Supreme Source discusses these in much detail.
It should be noted however that in terms of textual history, there is no mention anywhere of this concept in Tibetan literature which can be reliably dated earlier than the sgra thal rgyur itself, which most likely was compiled between the 10th and 11th centuries.
Re: Dzogchen practiced on different solar systems?
A careful reading of the Vimalakirti Nirdesa Sutra will also appeal to some Star Wars fans, and it seems to be one of the early texts, although not of Tibetan origin.
Re: Dzogchen practiced on different solar systems?
Ivo wrote:A careful reading of the Vimalakirti Nirdesa Sutra will also appeal to some Star Wars fans, and it seems to be one of the early texts, although not of Tibetan origin.
Indeed, the concept that this or that form of Buddhadharma is being practiced in some other world system than our own is not an innovation of Dzogchen texts, but appears in Mahāyāna texts from an early time.
Re: Dzogchen practiced on different solar systems?
For me it seems perfectly plausible that there would be beings on planets in other solar systems (even maybe in this solar system) practicing natural awareness, but the question that arises in my mind is: So what? How does that affect me here and now?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Re: Dzogchen practiced on different solar systems?
If you really followed that line of thinking yourself, you would never post.Sherab Dorje wrote:How does that affect me here and now?
-
- Posts: 7885
- Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 6:13 am
Re: Dzogchen practiced on different solar systems?
Although on this planet, in a completely "different realm", I read an autobiography of an early 20th century Catholic Priest that accidentally stumbled on Dzogchen/Mahamudra which freaked him out. He ended up leaving the Church because it didn't jive with what he had been taught and was teaching. (He taught theology at the Vatican to other priests.) He was writing in the '40s so he didn't use those terms, all he knew was that we are never separated from Truth, which is in direct conflict with the story of Adam and Eve.For me it seems perfectly plausible that there would be beings on planets in other solar systems (even maybe in this solar system) practicing natural awareness...
After he left the priesthood he went to Hollywood and played a Tibetan monk in "Lost Horizon". Sounds like a karmic premonition for his next rebirth to me!
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
Re: Dzogchen practiced on different solar systems?
Actually its completely congruent with a non literal reading of the Adam and Eve mythos...Which is exactly the conclusion the Christian monk Bede Griffith came to when he came upon Dzogchen..smcj wrote:Although on this planet, in a completely "different realm", I read an autobiography of an early 20th century Catholic Priest that accidentally stumbled on Dzogchen/Mahamudra which freaked him out. He ended up leaving the Church because it didn't jive with what he had been taught and was teaching. (He taught theology at the Vatican to other priests.) He was writing in the '40s so he didn't use those terms, all he knew was that we are never separated from Truth, which is in direct conflict with the story of Adam and Eve.For me it seems perfectly plausible that there would be beings on planets in other solar systems (even maybe in this solar system) practicing natural awareness...
After he left the priesthood he went to Hollywood and played a Tibetan monk in "Lost Horizon". Sounds like a karmic premonition for his next rebirth to me!
The Garden is our Primordial State.
“You don’t know it. You just know about it. That is not the same thing.”
Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.
Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.
- dzogchungpa
- Posts: 6333
- Joined: Sat May 28, 2011 10:50 pm
Re: Dzogchen practiced on different solar systems?
Who are you referring to?smcj wrote:Although on this planet, in a completely "different realm", I read an autobiography of an early 20th century Catholic Priest ...
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche
Re: Dzogchen practiced on different solar systems?
Yes. And the fruit of the knowledge about good and bad, right and wrong is the beginning of judgement, the root of dualism.Simon E. wrote: Actually its completely congruent with a non literal reading of the Adam and Eve mythos...Which is exactly the conclusion the Christian monk Bede Griffith came to when he came upon Dzogchen..
The Garden is our Primordial State.
- dzogchungpa
- Posts: 6333
- Joined: Sat May 28, 2011 10:50 pm
Re: Dzogchen practiced on different solar systems?
http://diversejourneys.com/?p=1189Simon E. wrote:Which is exactly the conclusion the Christian monk Bede Griffith came to when he came upon Dzogchen..
The Garden is our Primordial State.
(linked article is about Bede Griffiths' interest in Dzogchen)
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche
-
- Posts: 7885
- Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 6:13 am
Re: Dzogchen practiced on different solar systems?
John Tettemer. "I Was a Monk" copyrighted 1951. The experience he is talking about happened in the 1930s, long before Dharma became a meme in the West.Who are you referring to?
This wasn't an academic exercise on his part. He stumbled on the meditational experience of it. All underlinings are his:Actually its completely congruent with a non literal reading of the Adam and Eve mythos...Which is exactly the conclusion the Christian monk Bede Griffith came to when he came upon Dzogchen..
The Garden is our Primordial State.
*****************************************************
"…had naturally begotten in me a power of concentration beyond the average. My hour of mental prayer every morning and another hour every evening for nearly a quarter of a century had given me a facility in quieting the life of the senses of the discursive mind, and a capacity for fixing my attention with a quiet steady regard on the subject of consideration. (=shamata imo, not his term)
…I brooded over the mystery of life, not trying to solve it, but striving to lose myself in its depth, allowing its inexplicableness to flow over me.
This was the effect of my contemplation upon me. A new faculty of knowing seemed to be born in me, in the quiet stillness yet intense activity of consciousness within me. I seemed to touch the heart of reality, the very essence of existence, with a directness, an immediacy, rendering all my former knowledge false and illusory. As it were, I seemed to sense another dimension; or perhaps I should express it better were I to say that all dimensions seemed to go, leaving me conscious of presence, a reality having no form that the senses could comprehend, yet not abstract and lifeless, as were the ideas of the mind, but concrete, vital, palpitating with realness.
**************************************************************
Sounds more like Mahamudra than Dzogchen per se, since he credits his "shamatha" as a precursor. I'd wager any Mahamudra teacher would be pleased if their student reported that experience in meditation. And remember; he had never heard of either Mahamudra or Dzogchen when he was writing this. He had no idea what to make of it. Up until then he had been a hard-core Catholic priest. He taught theology at the Vatican!
If anyone bothers to buy it, the first 200+ pages are his life as a Catholic priest up until then. If you're interested in his experience and how it effected him, skip to the end.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
- dzogchungpa
- Posts: 6333
- Joined: Sat May 28, 2011 10:50 pm
Re: Dzogchen practiced on different solar systems?
OK, thanks. I will point out that Dharma was a "meme" in the west long before the 30's. For example the Theosophical Society was founded in 1875 in New York, and its motto was "Satyan nasti paro dharmah".smcj wrote:John Tettemer. "I Was a Monk" copyrighted 1951. The experience he is talking about happened in the 1930s, long before Dharma became a meme in the West.Who are you referring to?
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche
Re: Dzogchen practiced on different solar systems?
I wasn't of course implying that this was other than experiential rather than academic.smcj wrote:John Tettemer. "I Was a Monk" copyrighted 1951. The experience he is talking about happened in the 1930s, long before Dharma became a meme in the West.Who are you referring to?
This wasn't an academic exercise on his part. He stumbled on the meditational experience of it. All underlinings are his:Actually its completely congruent with a non literal reading of the Adam and Eve mythos...Which is exactly the conclusion the Christian monk Bede Griffith came to when he came upon Dzogchen..
The Garden is our Primordial State.
*****************************************************
"…had naturally begotten in me a power of concentration beyond the average. My hour of mental prayer every morning and another hour every evening for nearly a quarter of a century had given me a facility in quieting the life of the senses of the discursive mind, and a capacity for fixing my attention with a quiet steady regard on the subject of consideration. (=shamata imo, not his term)
…I brooded over the mystery of life, not trying to solve it, but striving to lose myself in its depth, allowing its inexplicableness to flow over me.
This was the effect of my contemplation upon me. A new faculty of knowing seemed to be born in me, in the quiet stillness yet intense activity of consciousness within me. I seemed to touch the heart of reality, the very essence of existence, with a directness, an immediacy, rendering all my former knowledge false and illusory. As it were, I seemed to sense another dimension; or perhaps I should express it better were I to say that all dimensions seemed to go, leaving me conscious of presence, a reality having no form that the senses could comprehend, yet not abstract and lifeless, as were the ideas of the mind, but concrete, vital, palpitating with realness.
**************************************************************
Sounds more like Mahamudra than Dzogchen per se, since he credits his "shamatha" as a precursor. I'd wager any Mahamudra teacher would be pleased if their student reported that experience in meditation. And remember; he had never heard of either Mahamudra or Dzogchen when he was writing this. He had no idea what to make of it. Up until then he had been a hard-core Catholic priest. He taught theology at the Vatican!
If anyone bothers to buy it, the first 200+ pages are his life as a Catholic priest up until then. If you're interested in his experience and how it effected him, skip to the end.
He Bede Griffith, later learned about Dzogchen and I think that he identified his experience as that.
It is also worth noting that for the rest of his long life he remained a Catholic monk and priest.
“You don’t know it. You just know about it. That is not the same thing.”
Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.
Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.